Podcast Summary

Episode Overview

Podcast: New Books Network
Host: Mortaza Hatizadeh (Critical Theory Channel)
Guest: Dr. Kerry Gottlich, Lecturer in International Politics, City St George’s University of London
Book Discussed: From Frontiers to Borders: How Colonial Technicians Created Modern Territoriality (Cambridge University Press, 2025)
Date: January 14, 2026

This episode explores Dr. Kerry Gottlich’s new book, which investigates the origins, technical underpinnings, and global consequences of “modern territoriality”—specifically, how the colonial practice of creating precise, linear borders shaped the modern geopolitical landscape. The conversation traverses theory, historical case studies, and the enduring legacy of these border practices in the 21st century.

Key Themes & Discussion Points

1. Background and Motivation for the Book

• Dr. Gottlich’s work stems from his PhD, which sought to bridge international relations theory and historical analysis to explain how precise borders became foundational to modern international politics.
• The 2010s context, especially the collapse of colonial boundaries in the Middle East (Sykes-Picot Agreement, Kurdish aspirations), fueled his inquiry into whether modern boundaries are as “artificial” and lasting as often claimed.
• He found traditional IR theory inadequate to explain how linear boundaries originated and why they persist globally.

“I was really interested in finding out why, you know, how it came to be that we have a world of kind of self-sufficient states that seem to be... clearly bounded entities. And the standard theories of international relations didn’t seem to be able to explain that.”
— Kerry Gottlich [05:35]

2. Book Structure and Argument (07:44)

• Theoretical Claim: Modern territoriality is not just about sovereignty, but fundamentally about technical practices (surveying, boundary-making) that rely on expertise and a unique relationship between technicians and political authority.
• Empirical Scope: Gottlich examines the settler colonies of North America (13 Colonies) and British India as case studies for the rise of linear boundaries, contrasting “settlement” and “extraction” colonialism.
• Consequences: The proliferation of linear boundaries changed how people viewed borders; by the 19th century, boundaries were seen as artificial constructs rather than natural dividers, influencing border-making decisions at the Paris Peace Conference and beyond.

3. Four Narratives on Border History (15:17)

• Gottlich identifies four common narratives, notably:
  • Borders as vague/ambiguous historically.
  • Linear borders as products of nation-states and sovereignty exported from Europe via colonialism.
  • Diffusionist models suggesting boundaries originate in one region and spread.
  • The conflation of nations, countries, and states in public memory.
• He critiques the dominance of the “nation-state origin” and “diffusionist” models, arguing for more attention to local, practical origins.

“One of the most entrenched narratives... even in scholarship, is this idea of modern linear boundaries being something inherent in nation states and then exported through colonialism. And maybe even more basic than that is the idea of diffusionism.”
— Kerry Gottlich [18:11]

4. Borders as Technical Practices vs. Expressions of Sovereignty (20:47)

• Traditional views emphasize borders as expressions of sovereign will.
• Gottlich foregrounds the often-overlooked technical/apolitical dimension: boundaries as the work of experts (surveyors, technicians) following processes like allocation, delimitation, and demarcation.
• Modern borders, like electricity or engineering projects, become invisible when functioning but require continuous technical maintenance.

“Modern boundaries are like an engineering project... if it’s working properly, you can easily just ignore it. But if you want to understand how it came into existence, you have to understand it as an expert kind of practice.”
— Kerry Gottlich [22:55]

5. Critique of “Territorial Sovereignty” (24:26)

• The concept of “territorial sovereignty” is historically confused, especially if used to explain the emergence of borders: linear boundaries often predate or parallel the development of sovereign states, especially in colonial contexts.
• Ancient polities possessed forms of territoriality; it’s misleading to treat modern, surveyed borders as the sole markers of political modernity.

“I think the idea of using territorial sovereignty as a marker of modernity is… complicated. That’s why looking at modern boundary practices is a... better way to do it.”
— Kerry Gottlich [29:49]

6. The Spread and Dominance of Linear Boundaries (31:15)

• No single turning point; rather, gradual adoption through:
  • The 13 Colonies in North America (17th–18th centuries).
  • British India (late 18th–19th centuries).
  • Acceleration in the 19th century with imperial “frontier” surveys (Russo-Afghan border, etc.).
• The emergence of “surveying societies” where knowledge and expertise about land surveying became widespread, especially among settlers.

7. Property, Surveying, and Boundary-Making in North America (35:21)

• Settler societies’ obsession with land ownership and surveying for private property shaped their approach to inter-colonial and international boundaries.
• Amateur surveying practices arose out of necessity, ingraining linearity in political boundaries.
• Notably, several key American founders were surveyors, highlighting the centrality of the practice.

“Surveying was a profession that had the kind of presence in society that doctors or lawyers did... it was ever present. So then when you come to having disputes between the colonies... they approached those disputes in the same way that they would approach disputes between property owners.”
— Kerry Gottlich [38:57]

8. Knowledge-Gathering and Boundary-Making in British India (41:29)

• British India’s transition from “non-interference” to systematic data-gathering drove the development of modern boundary practices—a parallel to, but not a direct result of, new tax systems (permanent settlement → ryotwari).
• Surveying (epitomized by Colin Mackenzie’s work in Mysore) was central to asserting control and understanding local conditions, even if the ‘illusion’ was maintaining pre-existing boundaries.

9. The Paris Peace Conference and the Role of Boundary Experts (49:41)

• After World War I, the Paris Peace Conference (1919) saw “technicians” and boundary experts wield significant influence in redrawing borders—often more so than high-level statesmen.
• Concepts like mountain boundaries (advocated by officials like Thomas Holdich) offered new technical-logical justifications for boundary placement, sometimes overriding national or political principles (e.g., Czechoslovakia, Italy-Austria).
• Expertise provided both practical and ideological legitimacy for territorial decisions that have shaped Europe since.

“The typical analysis is that [the Paris Peace Conference] fits somewhere in between realpolitik... and Wilsonian liberalism.... What I am saying is that there is a third factor... the impact of experts at the Paris Peace Conference.”
— Kerry Gottlich [50:20]

10. Artificial Boundaries and Contemporary Relevance (60:10)

• Gottlich’s historical analysis suggests that linear, surveyed boundaries have become so entrenched, and so deeply tied to the relationship between technical expertise and political authority, that they are “sticky”—unlikely to disappear even as technology (AI, drones, digital mapping) changes.
• The only imaginable break would be a radically different relationship to expertise or new ways to conceptualize “where politics happens.”
• Current global trends (declining trust in experts, populist challenges to technical authority) are insufficient, but the future remains open to parallel or alternative spatial imaginaries.

“Linear boundaries are very sticky... it’s very unlikely that the practices that I’m talking about will cease to be the basis for territoriality... Modern territoriality is here to stay.”
— Kerry Gottlich [61:09]

Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• Boundary-making as technical, not just political claim:

  "There are these experts…boundary maintenance people that get kind of forgotten…modern boundaries are like an engineering project."
  — Kerry Gottlich [22:55]

• Diffusionism and the myth of European beginnings:

  "I don’t claim that diffusion never happens…but I don’t think that diffusion is in general a good model for how linear boundaries came to be."
  — Kerry Gottlich [19:37]

• Limits of sovereignty for boundary origins:

  "Ancient polities were territorial…If you define territory as rule in a particular space, you can see that in pretty much any human society."
  — Kerry Gottlich [28:56]

• Settler colonial 'surveying society':

  "Whereas in Europe…there was a set of qualified surveyors…in the thirteen colonies, there was a lot more property surveying to be done because people were emigrating in numbers, and there was an expectation of individual property ownership that there wasn’t in Europe."
  — Kerry Gottlich [39:58]

• Mountain boundaries and the Paris Peace Conference:

  "The US did this in the most systematic way by producing what's called the inquiry... Wilson relied on his experts, who told him that the highest crest of the Alps is the natural boundary of Italy."
  — Kerry Gottlich [57:36]

Additional Highlights

The Surveyor-Politician Connection

• “If you look through the signers of the Declaration of Independence...six of them were surveyors...three of the four presidents on Mount Rushmore had surveying experience.”
  — Kerry Gottlich [39:43]

Future Research

• Dr. Gottlich is working on the history of “territorial integrity” and its 19th-century roots in inter-imperial practice, predating its formalization in international law.

“No European empire ever conquered colonial territory from another European empire between Napoleon and the First World War. So that laid a kind of groundwork for boundaries that largely still exist.”
— Kerry Gottlich [69:08]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Introduction & Book Genesis: [02:53] – [07:44]
• Book in a Nutshell: [07:44] – [15:17]
• Four Narratives & Their Entrenchment: [15:17] – [20:47]
• Borders as Technical vs Political (Sovereignty): [20:47] – [24:26]
• Problem with Territorial Sovereignty: [24:26] – [31:15]
• Turning Points in Linear Boundaries: [31:15] – [34:19]
• Private Property and Surveying Practice: [35:21] – [41:29]
• British India & Information-Gathering: [41:29] – [49:41]
• Paris Peace Conference & Boundary Experts: [49:41] – [60:10]
• Artificial Boundaries & Modern Relevance: [60:10] – [68:08]
• Future Research Directions: [68:29] – [71:29]

Conclusion & Tone

The episode provides a rich, nuanced account of how colonial technicians and their practices forged the shape and meaning of modern boundaries. Dr. Gottlich’s tone is methodical yet open-minded, clearly distinguishing between widespread assumptions and the complexities revealed through historical and technical investigation. He candidly acknowledges the “stickiness” of modern territorial practices and the improbability of radical change without foundational shifts in how society relates to expertise and authority.

For listeners interested in the making of the modern world’s political geography, colonial legacies, and the enduring power of technical knowledge in shaping geopolitics, this episode and book are essential listening and reading.