Podcast Episode Summary

Podcast: New Books Network
Host: Holly Gady
Guest: Gregory Betts (speaking on behalf of himself, Lillian Allen, and Gary Barwin)
Episode: Lillian Allen et. al, "Muttertongue: What Is a Word in Utter Space" (Exile Editions, 2025)
Date: November 14, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode dives into the genesis, creative process, and meaning behind "Muttertongue: What Is a Word in Utter Space," a groundbreaking collaborative poetry collection and sonic poetry album by Lillian Allen, Gregory Betts, and Gary Barwin. Holly Gady explores the fusion of dub poetry, experimental poetics, and performative elements that define the project, engaging guest Gregory Betts in an in-depth conversation about collaboration, linguistic heritage, and the boundaries between print and performance in poetic art.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Origins and Development of "Muttertongue"

• Longstanding Collaboration: Betts explains that his creative relationships with both Allen and Barwin have deep roots, eventually culminating in shared performances around 2015, particularly with a noise band in St. Catharines. (04:24)
  • "Lillian and I have been working together as long as Gary Barwin and I have been working together as two sort of ends of my experience. And we were able to draw them together into a performance space around 2015." (04:24)
• Performance to Studio: Early performances sparked a realization of a unique artistic chemistry, inspiring further live gigs and eventually studio recordings with producer Orin Isaacs, known for his Juno-winning work. These sessions prioritized improvisation and the unpredictable blending of poetry and sound.
• Evolution to Print and Vinyl: The initial plan for brief liner notes in the vinyl edition ballooned into a full standalone book (Exile Editions), tightly integrated with the audio album (Siren Recordings). (06:00–07:00)
  • "Our original plan was to have a kind of insert into the vinyl ... that grew and grew and grew until it became its own standalone book." (06:26)

2. Live Audience Reactions and Performance Dynamics

• Encountering the Unexpected: Betts recounts the magnetic effect their performances have, causing both planned and serendipitous audiences to enter, often with curiosity and amazement.
  • "People just started sort of coming in from the street, and you could see just a look of, like, bafflement, curiosity, and even a sense of mischievous glee as they're like, this is something new and strange and fun." (07:44)
• The Power of Sonic Experimentation: The unpredictable, improvisatory energy draws diverse crowds, challenging and delighting both poetry aficionados and newcomers.

3. Translating Sonic Art to the Printed Page

• Notation as Performance Score: The group crafted visual scores that serve both as poetic texts and as guides for performance, balancing visual intrigue with practical use for improvisation.
  • "These are systems of notation that we use for our performances so that we can stand in front of an image that to most people would look pretty abstract and strange and perform it." (09:33)
• Interplay Without Tension: Betts sees no division between the audio and print versions, considering both as integral and overlapping expressions of the same artistic endeavor.

4. Defining "Sonic Poetry" vs. "Sound Poetry"

• Historical Context: The group builds from a rich Canadian tradition of sound poetry but distinguishes "sonic poetry" as integrating digital manipulation, music, and studio wizardry, going beyond the human voice’s limitations.
  • "When it comes to the record itself, there is a lot of remastering, some digital trickery. There are new layers thrown in that couldn't be done live… it's lost its kind of pure connection to the organic voice. And ... that's where we're starting to call this sonic poetry.” (11:03)
• Collaboration with Musicians: Performances have included live musicians, incorporating instruments and digital effects, further expanding the possibilities of the genre. (12:30)

5. Collaboration, Improvisation, and the "Third Mind"

• Letting Go of Ego: Genuine collaboration, Betts asserts, requires abandoning personal authorship and embracing a new creative space.
  • "You're not writing as yourself... what happens by letting go of yourself is you end up creating what Brian Gysin once called the third mind, a space in between the two of you that is not necessarily a clean merger, but something else entirely." (15:32)
• Performative Dialogues & History: The group often incorporates personal and linguistic backgrounds—such as marginalized "mother tongues"—into their improvisational exchanges, lending emotional and historical depth.
• Memorable Performance Anecdote: Early collaborations involved performing with masks, leading to spontaneous audience participation and the kind of unpredictable artistic cross-pollination that now defines the project.
  • "We used to wear monkey masks and ogre masks when we performed... a guy from the audience came out and started interpretive dance ... Seeing that Lillian Allen, who was also on the bill, grabbed a mic and started riffing off of the dancer." (18:14–18:54)

6. Poetry Excerpt & Personal Reflection

• Exploring Lost Mother Tongues: Betts reads a villanelle from the collection examining his family's disconnection from their Gaelic linguistic roots, using poetry as a mode of inquiry and reclamation. (22:19)
  • "[Villanelle excerpt at 21:46–22:19]"
• Shared Experience: The group’s connection lies partly in shared histories of lost or inaccessible ancestral languages—a resonance that informs their approach to language and sound.

7. Experimental Poetry: Risk and Necessity

• Challenging Labels: Betts reflects on the value and limitations of the "experimental" label, referencing poet Paul Dutton’s take that published poems have already completed their "experiments." (25:28)
  • "Paul Dutton used to hate the term experimental literature ... because he said, I did all my experiments at home, and what I publish are the results." (25:28)
• Pushing Genre Boundaries: True experimentation, Betts argues, means venturing into unproven forms—an approach that remains essential for artistic innovation even as labels become porous.

8. Looking Ahead: Continued Collaboration

• Perpetual Projects: The trio remains prolific individually and collectively; ongoing projects include a co-authored book, New Sonic Poetries, as well as further performances and possibly more recorded works. (28:20)
  • "Lillian and I are working on a book together right now called New Sonic Poetries, which comes from that conference." (28:26)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Artistic Partnership:
  “What happens by letting go of yourself is you end up creating what Brian Gysin once called the third mind, a space in between the two of you … something else entirely.” — Gregory Betts (15:32)

• On the Sonic/Poetic Experience:
  “We start learning through the imitation and repetition and babble of sounds … so as we're thinking about language, we have, we walk backwards in sound poetry to those beginnings before sound had really stationed and locked itself.” — Gregory Betts (23:53)

• On Live Audiences:
  “People just started sort of coming in from the street … bafflement, curiosity, and even a sense of mischievous glee as they're like, this is something new and strange and fun. So we lean into that.” — Gregory Betts (07:44)

• On Poetry Labels:
  “Paul Dutton used to hate the term experimental ... he said, I did all my experiments at home, and what I publish are the results. They're not experimental at all.” — Gregory Betts (25:28)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• Guest Introduction and Roles – 02:07
• The SETI Poem for the Moon – 03:35
• Birth and Evolution of "Muttertongue" – 04:24
• From Performance to Studio/Print – 06:26
• Audience Reaction and Performance Anecdotes – 07:36 & 18:14
• Score Notation and Visuals – 09:33
• Sound Poetry vs. Sonic Poetry – 10:31–13:30
• On Collaboration and the “Third Mind” – 15:18
• Villanelle Reading and Discussion of Mother Tongue – 21:46–22:19
• Experimental vs. “Finished” Poetry – 25:28
• Plans for Further Collaboration – 28:20

Conclusion

This episode offers a vibrant, candid exploration of "Muttertongue" as both a poetic and sonic experiment, mapping the collaborative processes that shape experimental art. The conversation moves fluidly from the technical—score notation and studio production—to the philosophical, tackling heritage, identity, and the sometimes limiting, sometimes liberating, nature of poetic categories. Throughout, Betts’ joyful engagement and memorable anecdotes make the case for poetry as both risk and radical play.