Podcast Summary: "Look hard enough at anything and you will eventually see everything”: Magic, Tarot, and Creativity with Lon Milo DuQuette & Kasia Elderkin
Podcast: New Books Network, East West Psychology Podcast
Hosts: Jonathan Kay, Stefan Julich
Guests: Lon Milo DuQuette, Kasia Elderkin
Date: December 23, 2025
Duration (content): [01:18] – [101:25]
Episode Overview
This episode explores the intersections of magic, tarot, creativity, and Western esotericism through a rich, personal, and often humorous conversation with renowned occult author and magician Lon Milo DuQuette, joined by poet and Thelemic practitioner Kasia Elderkin. The discussion orbits DuQuette’s newest book, The Tarot Architect, but naturally expands into philosophy, personal history, pedagogical approaches, art, mystical experience, and concerns about the future of the Western esoteric tradition.
Key Discussion Points
1. Lon Milo DuQuette’s Esoteric Journey
([06:17] – [26:14])
- DuQuette recounts his entry into esotericism, beginning as a self-described "child of the 60s" influenced by psychedelics and Eastern mysticism, seeking self-realization through introspection and ritual (“I realized from then on, finding out who I was … was going to be the only thing worth doing in life.” [06:30])
- He shares a pivotal story of reading and burning Aleister Crowley’s Book of the Law, leading to personal crisis and deep self-reflection:
- “As that book burned, I had...I would say, an epiphany, but I think it's more accurate to say I had a nervous breakdown. And maybe epiphanies and nervous breakdowns are pretty much the same thing.” ([17:33])
- Meeting Cassia’s grandmother, Phyllis Seckler (Soror Meral), who initiated him into the Ordo Templi Orientis (OTO), marking his entrance into the revival of the order.
2. Connection Between Hermetic and Kabbalistic Traditions and Tarot
([30:42] – [41:44])
- DuQuette views tarot as a living codex of creation, mirroring the structure of the Kabbalah:
- “Tarot as a magical and kabbalistic tool is an awesome, awesome tool...tarot is structured in the same way that the Kabbalists with anal retentive detail try to describe the mechanics...of creation itself.” ([30:52])
- Emphasizes creating one's own deck as both a personal and magical act — a method to internalize cosmic structure:
- “If you create your Tarot deck card by card, in the same order that existence came into existence…you're…building it within yourself…it's like you've squirted WD40 into the rusted machinery of your soul.” ([34:59])
3. Tarot as a Universal Tool in Spiritual and Magical Practice
([41:44] – [49:24])
- The tarot acts as a touchstone for magical, spiritual, and philosophical investigation, tying into the structure of the universe and consciousness.
- “It is so universal in its fundamental structure that it becomes like a magical touchstone to all sorts of other spiritual practices and spiritual studies.” ([41:45])
- Playful explanations connect Kabbalistic concepts to science and daily phenomena:
- “Gravity would be the lowest [level of consciousness]. So the kabbalists, instead of trying to think of it in purely mathematical terms, say, okay, gravity is a great angel, an archangel…as long as it's a thing and you're thinking of it as a thing, it's connected to every other thing…” ([44:13])
4. The Principle: "Look Hard Enough at Anything and You Will Eventually See Everything"
([49:24] – [56:37])
- Kabbalistic techniques (gematria, notarikhan, temurah) are seen as ways of opening the mind to the interconnectedness of all things.
- This playful, recursive hermeneutic both illuminates mystical reality and can induce states akin to psychosis or enlightenment depending on context:
- "If you look hard enough at anything, you would eventually see everything. And that's where the east and the west meet right there." ([47:12])
- The process aims to move the practitioner’s consciousness from the intellect (ruach) to the intuition (neshama):
- "You engage your ruach so much that it says, I gotta get out of here. And you meld into the next, higher level, your neshama, your soul, intuition." ([53:49])
5. Tarot as a Divinatory and Transformative Tool
([56:37] – [61:33])
- While many approach tarot as pure divination, DuQuette insists the cards' true magic is internal:
- “The magic isn't in the paper and the cardstock. The magic's in you. And you carry your tarot everywhere with you.” ([35:59])
- The process of extracting meaningful answers is less about supernatural forces and more about clarity of questioning and deep intuition:
- “When you actually know the question, the answer is screaming at you from every direction. I could hold up the Heinz ketchup bottle and say, there's your answer.” ([59:21])
- For himself, Lon humorously admits he can’t read his own cards (“I am so used to lying to myself…” [60:41]).
6. Magic, Art, and Creativity: The Artist as Magician
([65:32] – [78:16])
- Discussion bridges magic and artistic creativity, using DuQuette’s experience as a musician and Elderkin’s poetic practice as focal points.
- All art is seen as magic (“All artists are magicians and all magicians are artists.” [74:51]):
- “The art of magic is performance art that's performed by one individual. It has one audience. And that audience is, you've got one critic, you've got one venue. Okay, you're an entire Carnegie hall event of one.” ([74:51])
- Kasia Elderkin reflects on creative invocation as personal ritual and asks about cultivating the magical creative process.
- DuQuette’s advice:
- “Be more consciously self observant, be a better audience to yourself...Create a love feedback for yourself and your art and cultivate that.” ([76:13])
7. The Muse, the Daimon, and the Holy Guardian Angel (HGA)
([77:55] – [86:38])
- Elderkin asks about the role of the “daimonic presence” or muse in creativity.
- DuQuette describes this as a feedback loop of love and self-adoration, ultimately leading to mystical union or Knowledge and Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel:
- “You are your own best ear. And the realization of that…is that love feedback thing...That love feedback is what is known as the knowledge and conversation of the holy Guardian Angel.” ([78:16], [80:13])
8. Practical Engagement: Coloring Your Own Tarot Deck
([86:38] – [91:07])
- The Tarot Architect provides printable line drawings (at lonmiloduquette.net), inviting readers to color their own deck.
- Personalizing and meditating on each card deepens internalization:
- “If you spend two hours...coloring in and knowing every detail of that card...you'll never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever forget every detail on that card. So can you imagine what a, what a wealth a walking, talking deck of tarot cards you're going to be after you finish the process?” ([89:03])
9. The Future of Western Esotericism
([91:50] – [95:56])
- Elderkin prompts DuQuette on prospects for Western esotericism.
- DuQuette acknowledges historical cycles of suppression and warns of a possibly “bumpy ride” ahead:
- “No matter how things develop in the world around us, the spiritual development is private and personal...now would be an especially good time to focus on...making yourself the tarot deck, making yourself your own holy books, making yourself everything that you can keep right close to your heart…” ([93:04])
- Emphasizes resilience and internalization as strategies for surviving hostile times, citing historical figures who survived periods of persecution through internal practice.
Notable Quotes
-
On spiritual practice:
“If you look hard enough at anything, you would eventually see everything.” – Lon Milo DuQuette [47:12] -
On personal transformation:
“I realized from then on, finding out who I was and what this was all about was going to be the only thing worth doing in life.” – Lon Milo DuQuette [06:30] -
On magical creativity:
“All artists are magicians and all magicians are artists ... the art of magic is performance art that's performed by one individual. It has one audience ... you're an entire Carnegie hall event of one.” – Lon Milo DuQuette [74:51] -
On the inner magic of tarot:
“The magic isn't in the paper and the cardstock. The magic's in you. And you carry your tarot everywhere with you.“ – Lon Milo DuQuette [35:59] -
On resilience in troubled times:
“The spiritual development is private and personal...now would be an especially good time to focus on making yourself the tarot deck, making yourself your own holy books, making yourself everything that you can keep right close to your heart...” – Lon Milo DuQuette [93:04]
Timestamps for Key Segments
- [06:17] – Lon’s introduction to mysticism, Crowley, and initiation.
- [30:42] – Purpose and philosophy behind The Tarot Architect.
- [41:44] – Tarot as a universal tool, connection to Kabbalah and physics.
- [49:24] – Kabbalistic word games, interconnectedness, mysticism.
- [56:37] – Tarot as oracular tool, divination, and self-deception.
- [65:32] – Art/magic, music, creativity discussion.
- [74:51] – “All artists are magicians...” quote
- [77:55] – Discussing the muse, daimon, HGA, mystical experience.
- [86:38] – Making your own tarot deck, practical exercises.
- [91:50] – The future of Western esotericism.
Tone & Style
- The conversation maintains a tone that is humorous, generous, and deeply insightful, marked by DuQuette’s wit and the hosts’ warmth and curiosity.
- Emphasis on humility, playfulness, internal validation, and the universality of mystical creativity.
- Complex ideas are made accessible through metaphor, story, and self-deprecating humor.
Final Resources and Where to Find More
- Website & Resources: lonmiloduquette.net
- Free, downloadable coloring cards from Tarot of Ceremonial Magic
- Daily Facebook and YouTube livestreams
- Announcements about upcoming workshops, including a 3-day Tarot Architect event in Joshua Tree, CA
- Book: The Tarot Architect (Weiser Books) – available in print, Kindle, and audiobook.
- Classes: Ongoing Monday night classes at DuQuette’s Sacramento home (check website for details).
Closing Thoughts
The episode provides a compelling portrait of esoteric practice as a living, evolving art—one that is open, playful, yet intensely personal and resilient in the face of social and cultural pressures. The discussion demystifies magic without reducing its transformative power, and offers practical and philosophical guidance for seekers, creatives, and anyone curious about tarot and the mystical approach to life.