Episode Overview

Podcast: New Books Network — New Books in Psychoanalysis
Host: Christopher (B)
Guest: Dr. Louis Rothschild (C)
Book Discussed: Rapprochement Between Fathers and Sons: Breakdowns, Reunions, Potentialities (Karnac, 2023)
Date: January 26, 2026

This episode features Dr. Louis Rothschild, a psychoanalytic clinical psychologist, discussing his new book focused on the psychological, cultural, and relational dynamics between fathers and sons. The conversation explores the shifting landscape of masculinity, the “disappearance” and re-emergence of the father in psychoanalytic thought, and the necessity of compassion, flexibility, and vulnerability in father-son relationships.

Main Themes and Purpose

• Deconstructing Gender Binaries
  • The book challenges static, essentialist views on fatherhood and masculinity, questioning why compassion and tenderness are often excluded from masculine identity.
• Cultural and Psychoanalytic Shifts
  • Rothschild examines how psychoanalysis has historically privileged mothers over fathers, leading to a lack of frameworks for understanding paternal influence and masculinity itself.
• Rapprochement and Reunion
  • The essential potential for reunification, repair, and new beginnings between fathers and sons, especially after breakdowns or estrangement.
• Impact of Societal Narratives
  • How “normative unconscious” beliefs—about gender, sex roles, and relationships—act as invisible frameworks shaping everyone’s experience.
• Compassion and Vulnerability
  • Reclaiming the legitimacy of tenderness and open-heartedness in men, both clinically and culturally.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Motivations Behind the Book

• Societal Shift & Minority Perspectives
  [02:08]
  Dr. Rothschild shares that a sense of “ambivalence surfing around for several years” motivated him to write, especially as feminist and psychoanalytic opinions once “normal” to him became minority views in the culture.

  “I think may have been a straw that broke the camel's back in a good direction, gave a why now meaning to some work that had been percolating for a long time.” (C, 02:08)

Deconstructing Gendered Compassion and Fatherhood

• Breaking Binaries
  [04:22]
  Rothschild aims to disrupt the idea that compassion and tenderness are solely maternal domains.

  “Can we imagine a father that, you know, is holding his child? ... Fathers can be both tender and strong.” (C, 04:22)

• Freud and Masculinity
  [11:31 - 13:49]
  The tension in Freud’s own writing and correspondence regarding occupying maternal or paternal roles in the transference. Dr. Rothschild traces Freud's struggle to integrate “a soft heart” into the masculine psyche, influenced by his own family history and cultural context.

  “The failure of Freud to mentalize a soft heart as an essential component of adult masculinity... emanates from his own family history to the extent to which vulnerability and tenderness are denied as legitimate components of a masculine identity.” (C, 13:12)

• Social Expectations
  [05:37, 18:17]
  Men's relationships to other men as central to masculinity and the discomfort or disorientation many modern men experience around this.

The “Good Enough” Father

• Applying Winnicott’s Theory [09:56]
  Dr. Rothschild applies Winnicott's “good enough mother” concept to fathers, emphasizing embracing error, improvisation, and relational resilience.

  “A capacity to work creatively with frustration tolerance, I think becomes essential to be engaged in relationships... a jazz metaphor comes to mind as opposed to simply playing classical music.” (C, 09:56)

Revisiting Classic Psychoanalytic Narratives

• Shifting Transference and the Disappearance of the Father [07:01 - 08:32, 09:56-11:31]
  The host and guest explore how psychoanalysis originally centered fathers, but over time (e.g. with the “maternal turn” and object relations theory), the focus shifted to mothers, leading to an under-exploration of paternal functions.

• Freud’s Cultural Ambivalence [13:49 - 16:02]
  Discussion of Freud’s anxieties about appearing masculine/feminine as a Jew; Sandra Gilman's work on Freud's negotiation with anti-Semitism and gender.

Cultural Narratives, Normative Unconscious, & Social Progress

• Fathers in Social Context
  [18:17 - 19:04]
  Anecdotes about changing rooms, lactation rooms, and how sites of care and vulnerability are culturally coded.

  “To allow yourself to associate, be vulnerable enough in a relationship to really allow yourself to tremble in session, even if over the phone.” (C, 18:17)

• The “Normative Unconscious”
  [26:32 - 29:15]
  Reference to Lynn Layton’s idea that our culture’s shared, invisible belief systems (e.g., about gender roles) dramatically shape expectations about fathers and sons.

  “This whole idea of the social representations that, you know, what Lynn Layton calls the normative unconscious that we internalize...” (C, 26:32)

• Homophobia, Gender Norms, Social Change [27:08 - 29:15]
  Discussion around 1970s stories (e.g., “the surgeon is the mother” riddle), the cultural anxieties about boys playing with dolls, and evolution of gender roles.

Case Examples and Literary Illustrations

• Parental Function in Popular Stories [19:23 - 23:49]
  Rothschild uses Where the Wild Things Are, The Giving Tree, Finding Nemo to draw out nuances in separation/individuation and parental function beyond simple gender roles.

• Learning to Ride a Bike: Memory and Mastery [22:32 - 24:52]
  The bike-learning memory as an archetype for experiences of mastery, with discussion of how parental (often paternal) support dissolves into the child’s confidence.

Anger, Rage, and Repair

• Understanding Rage as a Defense [31:05]
  Rothschild links rage to “a flight response based in fear of annihilation when requests for recognition have failed,” highlighting the role of feeling unheard or abandoned.

  “Rage is a flight response based in fear of annihilation when requests for recognition have failed…” (B, quoting C, 31:05)

• Communication Breakdown and Silence [33:02]
  The difficulties men face in expressing anger, fear, and the heavy silences that can emerge when words fail.

Individuation, Attachment, and Paternal Function

• Questioning Old Narratives [34:24 - 36:57]
  Rothschild disputes the assumption that individuation is solely about separation from the mother, arguing for “refueling” and ongoing attachment with both parents.

  “This idea of having this clean and tidy break and going off to live your life, it would be, you know, that Max never sails home. Right. Why bother? And so that sense that liberating the kid from this regressive maternal bond is the path to individuation, I think that's just patently false.” (C, 36:57)

• Father’s “Invisible Work” [37:22]
  The invisible labor of fathers, often unrecognized, is discussed as a crucial but neglected topic.

Forgiveness, Reunion, and Cultural Scripts

• Andre Green’s Provocative Claim [38:47 - 41:27]
  Andre Green claims abandonment by fathers is “never forgiven,” while mothers are always welcome back by children—a notion Rothschild finds both provocative and revealing about cultural scripts.

  “The abandoned father is never forgiven.” (Andre Green, quoted by B at 38:47)

• Ambivalence and “Small Truths” [42:33]
  Rothschild underscores the importance of nuance and ambivalence, favoring “poetic attitude” and “finding small truths as opposed to large truths.” (C, 42:33)

Notable Concepts and Metaphors

• Jazz vs. Classical Metaphor [09:56]
  The “jazz” of flexible parenting versus the rigidity of classical roles.

• The Wise Baby, Peter Pan, Frankenstein [45:00 - 47:52]
  Each are symbols of abandonment and the need for recognition, homecoming, and witnessing.

• “A Man’s Got to Do What a Man’s Got to Do” [48:42 - 49:15]
  Parodied as an empty abstraction, highlighting the hollowness of inherited masculine scripts.

Notable Quotes & Moments

• “Can we imagine a father that, you know, is holding his child?... Fathers can be both tender and strong.” (C, 04:22)

• “A capacity to work creatively with frustration tolerance... I think a jazz metaphor comes to mind as opposed to simply playing classical music and having a sense of this will go like this and this is how it's supposed to sound.” (C, 09:56)

• “The failure of Freud to mentalize a soft heart as an essential component of adult masculinity... emanates from his own family history to the extent to which vulnerability and tenderness are denied as legitimate components of a masculine identity.” (C, 13:12)

• “Rage is a flight response based in fear of annihilation when requests for recognition have failed.” (C, 31:05, paraphrased by B)

• “This idea of having this clean and tidy break and going off to live your life... that sense that liberating the kid from this regressive maternal bond is the path to individuation, I think that's just patently false.” (C, 36:57)

• “The abandoned father is never forgiven.” (Andre Green, quoted by B, 38:47)

• “When the bird and the manual disagree, believe the bird.” (C, quoting John James Audubon, 50:24)

• “Aggression is easy. Intimacy is hard.” (B's analyst, 63:28; echoed and validated by Rothschild)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Motivations & Cultural Context: 02:08–04:22
• Deconstructing Gender Compartmentalization: 04:22–08:32
• Freud, Masculinity, and Tenderness: 11:31–16:02
• Masculinity as Recognized by Other Men: 05:37–07:01
• “Good Enough” Father & Parenting Metaphors: 09:56–11:31
• Normative Unconscious, Cultural Scripts: 26:32–29:15
• Casework & Literary Examples: 19:23–24:52
• Rage, Recognition, Repair: 31:05–33:59
• Individuation & Attachment: 34:24–36:57
• Andre Green & Forgiveness Script: 38:47–41:27
• Poetic Attitude & Small Truths: 42:33–43:03
• Jazz, Peter Pan, and the Wise Baby: 45:00–47:52
• Invisible Labor & Gender Scripts: 37:22–38:47
• Book’s Conceptual Impact (final reflections): 62:30–64:57

Summary Takeaways

1. Rothschild’s book critically interrogates binary assumptions about gender, especially regarding compassion, vulnerability, and power.
2. He calls for an expanded, more nuanced psychoanalytic and cultural understanding of fatherhood—one that recognizes the invisible labor and emotional needs of fathers alongside mothers.
3. Using classic literature, personal and clinical anecdotes, and psychoanalytic theory, he advocates an improvisational, flexible approach to relationships—symbolized by jazz.
4. Rage and aggression are framed as defenses against the terror of unmet needs for recognition, with the book urging psychoanalysis and culture alike to privilege intimacy over reactivity.
5. The episode ultimately makes an urgent case for compassion, reunion, and the ongoing possibility of transformation in father-son relationships—and by extension, society at large.
6. Final words on the importance of seeking "small truths," remaining ambivalent and open, and the value of intimacy in an often alienating, achievement-driven culture.

Recommended for anyone interested in contemporary psychoanalytic thought, the evolving role of fathers, masculinity and vulnerability, or the practicalities of creating more compassionate relationships across generations.