Lucy Black (4:50)

Well, interestingly, it started in an antique shop a couple of years ago and I saw a reproduction poster for a horse called Netherby. And the farmer was advertising this beautiful horse for $4 a leap and guaranteed that he was a winning foal getter. And I was really intrigued by this poster. It was from 1874. And I began to wonder about the kind of farmer who would put his stallion out in this way in 1874 and would advertise it appearing at different stables on different dates at $4 a leap. And so I started a deep dive, if you will, into farming practices of the period I knew quite a bit. It's a period I've written about before, but I had to learn a lot more about farming practices I had to learn a lot more about horses and stallions and breeding stallions. And as I was doing the research, Larkin just sort of walked into my head and the story unspooled itself. And I just fell in love with Larkin and his story, and he helped me write it. I know that makes me sound as though I'm a little unbalanced, but it's really true. The character became very real for me.

Holly Gattery (6:40)

I love Larkin so much. Not in the way that people often say they love characters. They love that they're fully drawn, that they feel like they're living, breathing. I mean, yes, all that. But, I mean, I love Larkin in a way where I wish I could walk into his kitchen right now and father him, because that's what I would be doing. I mean, that I bother a lot of people. And I'm aware that's what I'd be doing with this very reserved but tender man. And Larkin is a character who is so full of seeming contradictions, but it's only because the world in which he lives does not allow him to be who he is fully. So it may seem like contradictions, but it's not. It's just a life half realized. And I was hoping you could talk to me about writing a person who, again, is so far removed from who you are. I mean, there is the common thread of humanity. But I wrote this book and immediately thought I could never do that. I could never write like that. I think it would. My character would be one dimensional. It would look like a caricature. But you have brought Larkin to such beautiful life, and I wanted to pick your brain and ask you to lift the hood and tell us how you did that.

Lucy Black (7:56)

Well, thank you very much for the compliment. Laren is a composite, I think, of a number of people in my life that I have known and loved. My husband's family come from rural Ontario. They're farm folk. And so I've had the privilege of knowing and loving a number of farmers. We had our own small farm for 16 years east of Port Perry in a place called Blackstock, and again was embraced by the farming community and became close friends with a number of farmers. But I think more than that, Larkin represents for me a number of young people I worked with when I was a high school administrator. And I think, you know, I was a vice principal and a principal in high schools for a number of years as part of my career. And I discovered that a number of young people really struggled with their sexuality, and particularly young people who felt that they were born in the wrong body for one reason or another. And they often came out to guidance counselors or social workers or teachers or me at school before they'd spoken to their family members or their parents. And quite often when they. They did share with families what they were feeling or how they were feeling, their families rejected them. And many of them were cast out of their homes and ended up couch surfing until. Well, for months, really, until we were able to help them find a more sustainable living arrangement. And I saw that happen to so many people, Halei. It just broke my heart because the family unit, which should have embraced these young people and supported and loved them unconditionally, had rejected them at a time in their lives when they were feeling very vulnerable and very unsure of who they were. And Larkin, I think, embodies some of some of that. I hope he does. I think that's where a lot of Larkin comes from, is just having seen those young people struggle and being aware that, you know, here we are in 2025. This was, you know, 20 years ago, not that long ago, how much worse it would have been at the end of the 19th century for a Larkin. And the issues that Larkin dealt with at the end of the 19th century in my book are the same issues that families are still struggling with today. I think the social mores have become more accepting. I hope they have. I've been retired for a while, so I haven't been in a school school for a while. But it was really horrific to see these young people rejected by their families, living in parks and couch surfing with friends. And Larkin, as you know, you've read the book, was just terrified that people would find out that he was unsure of his own sexuality. And as a result, you know, repressed so, so much of what he was feeling, especially his relationship with his best friend, Paul.

Holly Gattery (11:50)

If I had to give this book, like, a vibe, if I had to say to someone, this is how it made me feel. And when I often. Or is this what I see when I think of the book? Because I guess I experience books perhaps differently than other people, maybe the same. But it's this feeling of sitting in a chair, a comfortable old chair, looking at a big window with kind of golden light filtering through and dust dancing and just being in that suspended state of reflection. And it'd have to be an old house with, like, original hardwood floors. And that's what it feels like to be in this book, because we're in two time periods where, with Larkin as an older man, not. Not old and they know, but older and Then we have Larkin as a boy, and he's reflecting back on. He's just kind of puttering around the house and we're getting these thoughtful flashbacks to things that have happened. So one of the really exciting parts of your story, for me, just from a pacing standpoint, was the juxtaposition of this reflective thoughtfulness at a slower pace to Back when he was a boy, where we have forbidden love, murder, intrigue, scandal. So I need to ask you about pacing because it was so gorgeously done.

Lucy Black (13:13)

Oh, thank you. What can I tell you about pacing? I think the Stone angel by Margaret Lawrence is one of those books that changed my life. And Margaret Lawrence talked about memory bank movies. And that's a term that always resonated with me in terms of how our memory works. And I felt for Larkin that these memories that came to him as he was going through the scrapbook and as he was reflecting on his life were akin to the sorts of memory bank movies that Lawrence talked about. But for Larkin, they all piece together and they form a quilt. The story of his life, really. And it's that playing with memory and the piecing together that I worked really hard at. So I'm glad you think the pacing worked. Um, but I, I really was just trying to stitch together his memories.

Holly Gattery (14:35)

One of the parts of his memory that. What, what. Some of the elements of things he's remembering is his relationship with his friend, who it, you know, it's kind of. It's a very coming of age relationship in a different time. One of the things I really thought when I put down the book after reading it for the first time was this is a person. Larkin is a person who is so completely capable of changing the world for a better place by how much he loves so many people and was denied that. He was. He was denied the ability to live his life to his fullest. But also I think he could have done a lot of people a lot of good if. If he had been. He did people good doing what he was doing too. But I think, I think he was stunted. And so much of it ties back to this, these realizations he has when he's with his friend. And I wanted to talk specifically about the violence that his friend lives with. And I'm trying not to give everything away. So we're going to be. We're going to dance around this because there's some major plot points here that are, that are quite important and I don't want to reveal them. I want you to experience them. Listeners, yourself, as I did for the first time. But let's talk about writing. Let's talk specifically. I'm going to narrow down my question even more to writing violence, because you are, I would say, a master at knowing what to put in and what. What to leave out, what's gratuitous. And I'd like you to talk about striking that balance.

Lucy Black (16:07)

Well, that's very kind of you to say. Thank you. You're right in that Paul. Paul's family life is not ideal, and he does experience violence. And that aspect of Paul's life traces back to an experience I had in elementary school. And I think I was in grade two. And there was a little boy in our class and. And his name was Stephen. I won't give you his last name. And he would come to school every day looking tearful, and quite often his shirt was stuck to his back with blood. And our teacher never made him stand for the national anthem. He used to put his head down on his desk and weep during the national anthem and in the playground one day his shirt flew up and I saw a quilting of scars on his back and realized that he had been beaten and obviously had been beaten fairly regularly. And it's that image, that recollection of that boy that I drew on when I wrote Paul. And just again, an awareness of how vulnerable, how powerless some young people are and the lasting impact of that treatment on their lives.

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Holly Gattery (18:55)

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Holly Gattery (19:18)

If they're faking it, they're not making it past us. Get award winning scam detection today. McAfee.com Keep it real. Did you go into this story? Into this. I mean, we, we know now where the story came from, where that nucleus was. Seeing that, seeing that poster, which, you know, I, when you're describing, I'm like, this is quite salacious, you know, I mean, like, if I, I don't blush easily. If I saw that poster now, I'd probably be like, oh my, that's, that's a lot. Wow. But when did this queer love story. And I say love story and I almost stopped myself because they're so young. They are so young that I don't know. And if we think of traditional love stories, and that's not what we're talking about, but there is a love there between these two boys. And when in the writing process were you like, oh, this is what's happening, or is it something you knew quite early on?

Lucy Black (20:18)

Again, I know this is going to sound strange, but Larkin told me, Larkin said, this is a part of my story that you need to tell. And it just fit together with Paul, his best friend, and, and with my lingering concerns as a retired administrator for the treatment that I had seen so many young people experience unnecessarily and in retirement. As I reflected on those young people and those families who were so intolerant, I realized that the church had a role to play in that intolerance in many instances. And I judge that. I see that as hypocrisy and certainly not all families and certainly not all churches. But I think the church had a role to play in saying that homosexuality was a sin. And I think that was very difficult for people to let go of, particularly at the end of the 19th century. It was a period of real growth in terms of science and technology and progressive ideology. But the social mores were still very dictated to by the church. And the church was slow to change. And I think a lot of people were hurt. And so all of those things sort of came out as I got to know Larkin better.

Holly Gattery (22:09)

And Larkin is a character who, unlike Paul and his family, Larkin is a character who has a mother and father who love him very much, and they don't ever reject him, but they don't reject him because they don't know. And I always, I really appreciated that because it felt true to life that Larkin would have never said anything ever about these things. And the way that it haunts and the way that it lingers that, that feeling of guilt but also the feeling of longing. I mean everything, all these tumbling feelings existing all at once in this V very as I said, listeners quiet space because it's of a quilting of scars. It feels on one hand like, you know, we have the murder, the intrigue, this kind of action and then we have such reflection as well. And it's just so beautifully done. So my favorite scene in the book, which is. That's not my favorite, the one that got really punched me, which is going to make me sound like a sociopath, I think is a scene between Larkin and his dog. And I don't want to say anything except that put that in the reader's brain because there's no way for me to mention the other characters in the scene without actually giving away something by virtue of who the characters are. But I do would like to talk to you about learning about. And I live in rural Ontario, listeners, so this is really important to me. If you don't live on rural Ontario. But let's, let's stop. Let's take a moment to stop idolizing metropolises and everything happening somewhere else. Wonderful things, amazing stories, sad things, devastating things happen. Wherever we are in rural Ontario is replete with so many incredible stories and so much history I want to talk about. We've already talked about you researching farmers and farm life. About researching the farm farm. And then we have these animals on the farm. We have his dog, which Rilarin is so appropriately emotionally constipated that he can't even really show his affection to this dog. But he has the perfect dog for him because the dog is as feral as dog get. Really not quite that feral, but researching the roles of animals and kind of the cadence of farm life because there's so much research that must have gone on to creating the sense of verisimilitude of, you know, I live surrounded by farmers too, of getting up and this is what you do and this is what you do next. But without making it seem like, wow, this book is over researched and I am just being waterboarded with unnecessary information. So I'd love for you to talk about that.

Lucy Black (24:50)

Well, I shared with you that we did have our own small farm for 16 years and there is a rhythm to farm life and there is. It corresponds to the seasons. It's influenced by the weather, but it unfolds in a very natural way. And overlapping that, if you will, are the seasons of the church and the impact that the church seasons have on the farm seasons. And that was certainly a lot stronger at the end of the 19th century than it is perhaps now. But even when we had our farm, it was still very much a part of farming life and what took place. So for me, it was just a matter of remembering what each of those seasons were and the tasks that were involved with that and the things that people were involved with, and then trying to share that with my readers in terms of how it impacted Larkin. You know, he didn't have a stomach for a lot of things that he was required to do as a young person, and yet he had to do it because it was necessary. You couldn't take your tomorrow, okay, if you hadn't branded them, participate in those things that actually made him feel a little bit queasy or sick. So it was just piecing together again, piecing together the quilting, if you will, of all those disparate pieces and trying to share with the reader what the background of life looked like for Larkin, both as a young boy and then as an older man.

Holly Gattery (27:12)

Another really fascinating part of the novel for me was looking at the transfer and corruption of information and in a community. So we can look at this now on a larger scale, or not necessarily larger, a different scale when we look at the digital world and how information and misinformation and conspiracy and conjecture are spread. But the community in which Larkin lives is a microcosm for this pre cell phone, pre digital age. And the willingness to entertain conjecture and gossip and outright lies is a, is a powerful force. And there we have, we have a bit of a cast of characters in the novel. But I mean, I think it's, I think it's done so wonderfully because when I think back, you know, I don't. The, the town's people are like a, like kind of just a faceless blur. But I, I, I felt like they were, When I think of them, I just feel like you just feel their discussion and their prejudice and not, of course, not everyone was like that. But I'd like you to talk about that. That scene, that for me was something I picked up on and really thought about in your book and thought about how, again, we're living it today and that information, misinformation, conjecture and hate and secrets. Yes.

Lucy Black (28:45)

So again, without talking about spoilers, there's a constable in the novel Kian, and Kian's from Toronto, so he's considered an outsider and he is trying to determine lots of things. He's trying to solve petty crimes throughout the novel. There are two or three things he's trying to resolve. And people in the community know what happened. They know the answers, but they won't tell him because he's an outsider and he's Catholic. And even though they like him well enough, they withhold information from him. And there is an inquest in the novel, and Larkin has to testify at the inquest. And Larkin knows what happened, but he withholds that information. And he withholds that information because he's made a moral judgment and he's decided that if he reveals too much, somebody will hang. And so he withholds the information. So there's a lot of withholding, there's a lot of secrets in the novel. But people also jump to conclusions, human nature being what it is. When there's a deficit of facts, people jump to conclusions. And so they make their minds up. And once they've made their mind up, the rumors begin to swell and they sort of burgeon throughout the community until everybody believes that they're true without there being any sort of factual basis. It's just because everybody thinks so, because nobody knows the real truth. And I. I mean, that still goes on today. I mean, we see that happening all the time in the news cycles, but it was certainly true back then as well. And so I thought it would be important to try to capture a little bit of that.

Holly Gattery (31:03)

Yeah. Thank you. So my penultimate question is about Larkin's parents. And I would really love you to talk about them and where they came from, because they felt so much like people I have known, people I know. And it's. But there's. It's that thing of all really great, I'd say art and writing, it's so specific as to be universal because they're very specific characters. But they felt. They feel so relatable. And I loved them so much because, you know, you have this, you know, queer youth, you know, at this time period, and you think, oh, his parents are going to be, you know, completely horrible people. And that's why he doesn't say anything. Well, that's not it. There's lots of reasons he doesn't say anything. But his parents are really loving and lovely people also. You know, they're. Of their time as well.

Lucy Black (31:55)

Right. I'm glad to like them. I intended them to be loving, supportive parents who loved him unconditionally. And even though he never shared some of the key pieces of information or some of his secrets with them, I believe they knew. I believe they understood more than he realized that they did. And they Loved him unconditionally. And they're just very, very fine folks who I thought exemplified a Christian way of life and wrote them in a way that would be a strong contrast, if you will, to the minister in the story, who I think is a despicable character and felt that that balance was necessary. Larkin didn't share his secrets with his parents because he didn't want to hurt them. He didn't want to disappoint them. I don't know that he ever questioned their love for him, but he was afraid of hurting them, and he was afraid if the secrets got out, other people would judge the family, would judge his parents, and they would be hurt, which is why he kept so much to himself. I'm really glad she liked them.

Holly Gattery (33:40)

I did. And I like how much they protect him. So, you know, you have people pounding on the door, harassing them for information, and they do what all, I think great parents are, which is ado. Which is they. They have faith in their child, that their. That their child is doing what the child believes needs to be done. I mean, l is a very capable character. I'm not. I'm not saying infallible, but, you know, there's, you know, I have four kids there. There's some. Or, you know, one of my kids, I, you know, she was like, I can't tell you this. I'd be like, probably for good reason. If, you know, cool, I'll support you. If you know, the personality of my other kid, I don't know if I'd let that one lie. But Larkin, certainly a kid that his parents understand and his parents, he's earned his parents trust and they love him, and I just loved how much they protected him and didn't push him to. Even when, because you're right, they. There's. It's like, there's moments where you can tell they know something else is going on, and they're like, but no, we're not going to. We're just going to protect our child and follow cue, which is, you know, such a wonderful thing and believable. Believable in the way that happens. All that is said in a look, in a glance, in these moments where there is no talking. All that is said in what is not set. And this is a book heavy with secrets and silences and orchestrated in such a way that we as readers are learning as much about just a gesture from a gesture as we would from two pages of exposition. And it's just so beautifully done. Lucy, my final question for you and I actually Listeners know. I think I know the answer to this question, although Lucy is so prolific, I'm not sure anymore. What are you working on now?

Lucy Black (35:29)

Oh, I have another book coming out in the spring of 2026 seven called the mural. And it's a coming of age story of a young woman who falls in love and that relationship doesn't work. So she marries somebody on the rebound and he's a wonderful guide, but has a very controlling family, particularly a controlling mother in law. And it's all about her coming of age and learning how to make a marriage work, learning how to make a blended family work, and falling in love with a man that she marries and making a life with him. And you know, it's not a Cinderella story. Marriage, marriage is hard work. And I really wanted to communicate that to young readers in particular, if I'm lucky enough to get young readers. I think people think that you have this beautiful fairy tale wedding and you live happily ever after. And the reality is there are fertility issues, there are money issues, there are family conflicts. And through all that, you have to work at your relationship and you have to protect and cherish the love between you. And so that's what that book is about. And I'm very excited about it. It's quite a departure from anything else I've written, but I really like it a lot. And I just finished another manuscript which I probably shouldn't even talk about yet because it's just too fresh.

Holly Gattery (37:39)

That is fair. It is like a. It's like a sapling. You just don't want to expose it to the elements quite yet. I get it, I get it. That's one. Well, listeners, I can tell you I've actually read the Mural because I'm so lucky like that. And it's really a one, a wonderful book. And I read it, I think like 14, when I was 14 years into my marriage, and I was like, okay, I get it. Like I was at, okay, I get it. I have to actually work at this. It's not all fun and lollipops and sunshine and rainbows and yeah, it was definitely a very powerful read and I think I would have appreciated it even more when I was first married. And I love what you said about learning to love the person you married, which sounds like that should have happened already, but for some of us, myself included, yeah, it wasn't quite like that. So I really, I really appreciate that story and I can't wait for people to read it. That's published. Gonna be published with now and never. Correct.

Lucy Black (38:37)

Yes, spring 2027.

Holly Gattery (38:40)

It's gonna be our sp a vicious year for books, I feel. Well, thank you so much for joining me, Lucy, everybody. You can get a quilting of Scars, which is published with now or Never, which is a wonderful press out on the west coast of Canada. It is out. You can buy it for or you can purchase it. You can borrow it. Just put it everywhere. If you love historical fiction, you'll love this book. If you love mystery, you'll love this book. If you love, you know, family drama, you'll love this book. If you love literary fiction, you will love this book. If you love great writing, you'll love this book. This is this is my story here. So absolutely get it. Lucy, thank you again so much for joining me.

Lucy Black (39:20)

Thank you for having me. Hille, Always a pleasure.