Podcast Summary

Podcast: New Books Network
Episode: Lucy Donkin, "Standing on Holy Ground in the Middle Ages" (Cornell UP, 2022)
Date: February 9, 2026
Host: Dr. Miranda Melcher
Guest: Dr. Lucy Donkin

Overview

This episode explores Dr. Lucy Donkin’s book, Standing on Holy Ground in the Middle Ages, which investigates how medieval Christians (and, by comparison, Jews and Muslims) interacted with, marked, and conceptualized the ground as holy in various contexts. Through a "stratigraphic approach," Dr. Donkin reveals how surfaces—from earth itself to paving, textiles, and burial layers—mediated religious experience, identity, and memory, inviting listeners to see the ground not as passive, but as a dynamic participant in medieval social and spiritual life.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

Dr. Donkin’s Academic Journey & Genesis of the Book

• Background: Trained in ancient, modern, and medieval history, as well as medieval art history; focus on floor mosaics in Italy sparked by family holiday and coursework.
• Catalyst Question: A fellow student asked, "What is the significance of someone walking up the tree in the Otranto Cathedral mosaic?" which led Donkin to a broader investigation of the ground in sacred space.
• Book Development: Expanded from specific mosaics to a wide inquiry into "the surface of the ground" as experienced and shaped in sacred contexts.
• Quote: "Writing it certainly, certainly made me more conscious of my everyday interactions with it." (01:28, Dr. Donkin)

The "Stratigraphic Approach"

• Definition: Borrowed from geology, but applied loosely—the idea of investigating layers (earth, paving, textiles, bodies) beneath one's feet to understand how they combine to create meaning in a place (05:17).
• Visualizations: Layers seen as a "vertical stack...like a club sandwich or a layer cake." (06:55)
• Embodied Experience: Medieval people were aware of these layers, sometimes even "from the perspective of the person below ground." (07:53)
• Quote: "There is an embodied awareness, I think, of these layers, even if the sort of stratigraphy was not necessarily being visualized." (07:53, Dr. Donkin)

Dynamics of Contact: Holy Feet, Holy Ground, and Vestigia (Footprints)

• Vestigia: Latin for footprints/traces; focused on the transformative power of a holy individual's physical contact with the ground, creating "contact relics." (10:06)
• Evidence: Sites like the Ascension where Christ’s footprints are venerated—imprints of presence and absence.
• Transmission: Soil and stones from such sites could be distributed as secondary relics, "sanctifying" distant places.
• Quote: "Through physical contact that there's a transmission of sanctity from the holy body to the place." (13:15, Dr. Donkin)

Ritual Creation of Sacred Space: The Alphabet Cross

• Book Cover Image: Depicts a bishop inscribing the Greek and Latin alphabet on a church floor in the shape of a diagonal (St. Andrew’s) cross—a ritual during church consecration. (17:17)
• Interpretation:
  • Widespread and long-lasting ritual.
  • Could signify "spreading Christianity throughout the world" or "inscribing faith in people's hearts."
  • Sometimes, actual floor designs imitate this ritual.
• Quote: "It plays such an important part in shaping the sort of holy ground that people engage with in the rest of the book." (20:50, Dr. Donkin)

Encounters with Sacred Surfaces: Trampling and Standing

Trampling: Negative and Positive

• Trampling as Identity Expression: Walking on certain images (like crosses) marked religious allegiance or negation—sometimes weaponized as accusations between Christians, Muslims, and Jews; also used within Christianity to express differences (23:11).

• Violence and Nuance: Trampling could denote desecration or, alternatively, victory (e.g., Christ treading on evil animals).

• Comparisons:

  • In Judaism and Islam, more sensitivity to imagery underfoot; sometimes trampling on images could "neutralize" their presence (27:20).

• Quote: "What you were prepared to walk on defined who you were." (25:55, Dr. Donkin)

Positive Standing: Ritual and Status

• Red Carpet Analogy: Standing on precious materials like porphyry conferred honor; materials echoed the importance of the individual (e.g., coronation, ordination, liturgical markers) (31:04).
• Quote: "We don't denigrate a red carpet when we tread on it. We presume there's a nice symbiotic relationship between famous person and sort of swanky floor." (28:40, Dr. Donkin)

Decoding Decorated Pavements

Colors and Materials

• Symbolism and Mirroring:
  • Porphyry (imperial purple stone) for emperors/elite clergy.
  • Mirror-like finishes matched the status or emotional state (Dante’s Purgatorio: "a shiny white marble step mirroring Dante" vs. "a rough, cracked step symbolizing contrition") (34:50).
• Not Always Interpretable: Some significance is lost to us; literary sources may provide hints.

Figurative vs. Non-Figurative Paving

• Liturgical Markers: Images underfoot sometimes indicated ritual stations (e.g., Evangelist symbols at Novara Cathedral matched with deacons during ceremony) (37:50).
• Interactive Floor: The engagement of participants (and viewers) with these images created additional meanings—human action "animating" images.
• Quote: "Liturgical engagement with these elements...almost as if the participants are giving voice to them." (41:44, Dr. Donkin)

Temporality and Repetition

• Repetition & Memory:
  • Frequent use of a spot imbued it with communal or personal significance.
  • Rituals of entry or exit (e.g., coronations, funerals) could grant meaning to markers or spaces through repeated performance.
  • Some markers known only by tradition, not by visible decoration. (42:50)
  • Example: Abbey of Marmoutier—dying monk laid in the very spot where monks are depicted standing throughout generations (46:10).
• Spectrum of Engagement:
  • Unique, one-off contact (e.g., Christ’s footprint) vs. repetitive, communal use (with repetition signifying shared identity) (47:05).

Temporary Floor Coverings and Prostration

• Purpose: Often practical (protect vestments), but also symbolic—marking off a space "apart" for prayer or ritual (48:30).
• Modern Analogy: Red carpet—rolled out for special people/moments, not permanently installed.
• Material Layers: Could enhance (e.g., silk atop cosmati paving for coronation) or mitigate (e.g., hair shirts for humility) the meaning of the ground beneath.
• Flexibility: Layers "modulate the relationship between people and place," allowing heightened or abased experience. (51:50)
• Quote: "They really seem to have indicated a place that was apart from the surrounding area...appropriate to the person at that moment." (49:40, Dr. Donkin)

Burials Underfoot

• Prevalence: Common in medieval churches—people literally sought to be buried where they would be walked on (54:58).

• Motivations:

  • Humility;
  • Desire for remembrance via physical and prayerful contact;
  • Placement reflective of life’s activities or status (e.g., priests near altar, laity at usual spot).

• Embodied Continuity: Individuals imagined themselves beneath the very ground they once walked upon, reinforcing the sense of layers and memory.

• Procession Points: Burials often located at ritual halting spots; over time, markers influenced movement patterns within churches.

• Quote: "Read the inscription, think about the person beneath who probably expected that to happen." (55:40, Dr. Donkin)

Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On researching the ground’s social life:
  "I have really been fascinated by ways in which we can see parallels between what was going on in the Middle Ages and the environment that we walk our way around today." (60:28)
• On pandemic-era floor markers:
  "I didn't expect to be told how to navigate my local co op, my local supermarket with a series of temporary roundels. They were even round. I couldn't believe it." (61:10)

Timestamps of Key Segments

• Introducing the Book and Theme: 00:04 – 02:00
• Academic Journey & Inspirations: 02:00 – 04:59
• The ‘Stratigraphic Approach’: 05:17 – 09:26
• Holy Feet, Vestigia: 10:06 – 16:05
• Sacred Space Rituals & The Alphabet Cross: 17:17 – 21:10
• Trampling and Religious Identity: 23:11 – 28:02
• Positive Standing / Ritual Identity: 28:23 – 31:04
• Colors & Materials of Floors: 31:59 – 37:03
• Figurative & Non-Figurative Decoration: 37:50 – 42:32
• Repetition, Memory, & Communal Significance: 42:50 – 47:46
• Temporary Floor Coverings & Prostration: 48:30 – 53:39
• Burial Underfoot: 54:58 – 59:06
• Surprises and Parallels with Contemporary Life: 60:12 – 62:13
• Current & Future Work: 62:58 – 64:40

Concluding Reflections

• Donkin urges listeners/readers to become more attentive to the "layers" beneath their feet—to notice "the markers on it and the social practices around it and what or whom is underneath." (62:13)
• The interview closes with discussion of Donkin's current and future research, including the "portability of place" via environmental relics and the symbolic movement of earth. (62:58)
• Host Dr. Melcher thanks Dr. Donkin, noting the practical advice the book and conversation offer for engaging with historic sacred spaces today.