New Books Network – M. G. Sheftall on "Nagasaki: The Last Witnesses" (Penguin Random House, 2025)

Host: Nathan Moore
Guest: Professor M. G. Sheftall
Date: October 1, 2025

Episode Overview

In this episode, host Nathan Moore sits down with Professor M. G. Sheftall to discuss his forthcoming book Nagasaki: The Last Witnesses. The conversation explores not just the historical facts of the atomic bombing, but the lived memories of Nagasaki’s survivors—voices that are dwindling with time. Sheftall reveals how personal testimony, social context, memory politics, and cultural nuance all shape the legacy and understanding of one of the 20th century’s most consequential moments. The episode delves into the methodology of oral history, survivor experience, ethics of testimony, cultural context, shifts in nuclear thought, and the enduring lessons of resilience and memory.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

What Does It Mean to Be a "Last Witness"?

• Sheftall defines “last witnesses” as survivors of Nagasaki who were at least 12 years old at the time of the bombing—old enough to provide narrative memories, not just fragmented recollections ([02:56 – 04:49]).

  • "What I was going for was narrative memories on their part... at that level of granularity." – Sheftall [03:26]
  • Survivors younger than 12 often can’t provide full narrative accounts.

• He conducted multiple in-depth interviews with survivors, focusing both on the day of the bombing and their lives before and after ([08:18 – 15:07]):

  • Explored family life, food changes as the war progressed, how the trauma was processed, and decisions to share or hide their status as survivors.

Context, Culture, and the Limits of Translation

• Sheftall critiques most survivor literature for assuming “cultural schema” that Japanese readers share but non-Japanese readers lack ([08:18 – 15:07]).
  • "Non-Japanese speakers... a lot of it literally goes right over their heads because they don’t have the cultural, contextual knowledge..." – Sheftall [09:33]
  • His goal: to write the books he wanted to read, offering Western readers deep social and cultural context alongside personal testimony.

How Survivor Stories Evolve: Testimony, Taboo, and Shame

• Many hibakusha hid their identity for years out of shame and fear of social repercussions, only speaking publicly in later decades ([15:23 – 20:06]).
  • Organized activism in the late ‘50s/early ‘60s helped survivors demand recognition and government support.
  • "There was always this lingering feeling that it was something that shouldn't be talked about...an atmosphere of taboo." – Sheftall [18:35]

The Fragility of Memory: From Testimony to Legend

• Sheftall discusses the transition from firsthand testimony to “inherited” or “legend” memory ([20:16 – 22:16]).
  • "When you're going into a historical research project... it's best to get it from the horse's mouth... Once the survivors are gone... you start moving into the realm of legend and myth." – Sheftall [20:40]
  • He emphasizes the challenge of signal fidelity—oral stories degrade over generations.

Ethics of Interviewing Survivors

• Sheftall only interviewed those who already spoke publicly, prioritizing ethical integrity and minimizing intrusion ([22:36 – 26:16]).
  • He sought to avoid re-traumatizing, and instead often found survivors appreciated talking about pre-bombing life.
  • "All in all I had really, really positive experiences... and I think they did with me as well." – Sheftall [25:53]

Memory in the US and Japan—Shifting Narratives

• Sheftall notes the contrast between US pilots (rarely expressing guilt) and Japanese survivors (deep shame; fear of stigma) ([15:23 – 20:06]).
  • Points to a shift in American public opinion—by 2020, over 50% believed the bombs were unnecessary ([18:06]).
  • Japanese nuclear “allergy” is weakening: more voices are questioning the nuclear taboo amid new geopolitical realities ([26:40 – 29:47]).
    • "Voices... are now beginning to express talking points about why Japan maybe cannot rely on its strategy... maybe it's time for us to ditch the nuclear taboo..." – Sheftall [27:58]

Nagasaki vs. Hiroshima: One Story, Two Memories

• Sheftall links both bombings as a single tragic narrative but explores why Hiroshima became the global symbol ([29:53 – 35:46]).
  • Nagasaki’s business and social elite were largely spared; thus, memory activism was less prominent.
  • "Their ability to [downplay] has shaped the symbolism, the iconography...not only in Japan, but in world memory as well." – Sheftall [33:46]

Commemoration and the Birth of “Ground Zero”

• Both cities have marked hypocenters ("ground zero")—Nagasaki’s is visually more prominent ([36:06 – 39:09]).
  • "The term ground zero came from those two cities... those sites almost kind of wrote the playbook for traumatic memory commemoration sites that others have followed since." – Sheftall [36:16, 38:44]

Religion, Resilience, and Irony

• Religious faith (Christian or Buddhist) played an important role for some survivors in restoring meaning ([40:06 – 41:55]).
• Humor, irony, and resilience abound in survivor narratives ([44:53 – 47:59]):
  • "Every survivor has a, has an irony story, right? ...if they had taken the what if scenario, they would not have been there talking to me because they would be dead." – Sheftall [45:54]
  • "Resilience. God, every one of them has just resilience that, that pushes the, the imagined limits of human endurance." [46:44]

Gaps in the Literature and Room for New Research

• Sheftall highlights gaps in English-language research:
  • Civilian-military cooperation/governance during the war ([42:03 – 44:44])
  • Non-Japanese survivors: Koreans, Chinese, Southeast Asians, Allied POWs.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Granularity of Memory
  "On the morning of the explosion, I woke up at 6 o’clock. My mother made me rice gruel. I met Hanako at the streetcar stop, and we went on our way to the munitions plant to do our work. And that’s when the explosion happened." – M.G. Sheftall [03:35]

• Context Matters "I set out to write the Hiroshima and Nagasaki books that I’d always wanted to read." – M.G. Sheftall [09:44]

• Survivor Stigma "From the beginning... the origins were shrouded in shame, largely, and that really colored and influenced the trajectory that atomic bomb memory took here." – M.G. Sheftall [18:23]

• Rising Nuclear Anxiety in Japan "If someone had said to me 10 years ago that Japan was going to be here in 2025, I would have thought they were high on something or drunk. Just unthinkable. But now people are talking about it openly. It’s kind of scary really." – M.G. Sheftall [28:29]

• Irony and Survivor Guilt "Every survivor has a, has an irony story, right? Because if they’d been somewhere else on that morning, if they’d gone to work instead of stayed at home with a stomachache..." – M.G. Sheftall [45:54]

• On the Purpose of Memory "These weapons can never be used again under any circumstances, except maybe for, like, planet-killing asteroid deflection or something." – M.G. Sheftall [48:12]

Important Timestamps

• [01:52] – Introduction to episode and guest
• [02:44] – What “last witnesses” means
• [04:55] – Sheftall’s background and connection to the topic
• [05:47] – Relationship between Hiroshima and Nagasaki research
• [08:10] – How survivor interviews were conducted; ethics and methodology
• [15:07] – Discussion of US vs. Japanese memory of the bombings
• [20:06] – Signal fidelity and challenges of inherited memory
• [22:16] – Ethics of survivor interviews
• [26:40] – Nuclear deterrence in Japan today
• [29:53] – Nagasaki vs. Hiroshima memory
• [36:06] – Memorial sites, “ground zero”
• [42:03] – Gaps in the literature
• [44:53] – Humor, irony, resilience among survivors
• [48:10] – Closing message about nuclear weapons
• [50:12] – Sheftall’s current role and availability for talks

Takeaway Message

Sheftall’s core message is clear:
These stories are vital not only as historical record but as living memory, offering irrefutable personal testimony against nuclear war’s return. Their voices, captured as “the last witnesses,” demand that such weapons never be used again under any human circumstance, cementing the importance of memory as both inheritance and responsibility.

Further Reading/Seminar Information

• Professor Sheftall teaches at Shizuoku University, Japan ([50:21]).
• Open to giving seminars and lectures via Zoom.