New Books Network: "Covert Action: National Approaches to Unacknowledged Intervention"

Episode Date: December 9, 2025
Guests: Magda Long, Rory Cormac, Mark Stout
Host: Luca Trenta

Episode Overview

This episode features a conversation with Magda Long, Rory Cormac, and Mark Stout—three of the editors behind Covert Action: National Approaches to Unacknowledged Intervention (Georgetown UP, 2025). The book assembles global experts to examine how different nations conceive, structure, and execute covert action, moving away from US-centric frameworks to highlight diverse historical and contemporary approaches. The authors explore the evolution of covert operations, the impact of legal and cultural norms, and how these shadowy tools are wielded in both state-centric and transnational contexts.

1. Genesis of the Project

How the Book Came Together

• The idea sprang up simultaneously and independently among respected intelligence scholars (~04:52).
• Mark Stout recounts his inspiration for a global comparative volume during the pandemic, only to discover Rory Cormac and Damien Van Peeveld were already planning something similar. Soon after, Magda Long and Genevieve Lester were approached by Georgetown UP to do a similar project. The teams merged to pool expertise and avoid "competing with each other stupidly."
  • “Rather than compete with each other stupidly, we thought we'd, you know, join up. And that's how you end up with five editors, four outstanding ones, and me.” (Mark Stout, 06:21)
• The field was clearly ready for a broad comparative work on covert action, as shown by so many experts converging on the topic.

Memorable Moment:

• Rory Cormac jokes about Mark Stout's Bond-villain-like appearance on the call:
  • “Mark is sitting there with a cat on his lap, like a Bond villain…” (Rory Cormac, 06:56)

2. Defining "Covert Action" and Conceptual Challenges

Key Definitions and Debates

• Covert action is described as attempts by states to influence events in an unacknowledged or plausibly deniable manner, but the editors struggled to pin down universal definitions due to differing national practices and terminologies.
  • “It became quite existential…What on earth is covert action in the first place? …What do we mean by unacknowledged, by does it matter who's doing it within the state?” (Rory Cormac, 08:10)
• The term "intervention" vs "interference" was hotly debated; both terms are problematic.
• Not all countries distinguish sharply between covert (hidden sponsor) and clandestine (hidden action) operations, complicating cross-national comparisons.
  • “We all know what the difference between covert and clandestine is, but that's not always clear in these operations that states undertake…Nigeria, for instance, doesn’t necessarily conceptualize it that way.” (Magda Long, 12:11)
• The American tradition tends to treat covert action as an overseas tool, but many other states use it domestically as well.

Notable Quote:

• “One of the really cool things about the book…we are trying to move away from this conception, which…has been rooted in American scholarship for a long time…to break free from some of those chains and question them…” (Rory Cormac, 12:57)

3. Evolution and Historical Patterns of Covert Action

Longstanding Practices Transcending Time and Borders

• Covert action is not a modern American innovation but a recurring pattern in international relations, evidenced in ancient Greece, apartheid South Africa, Palestine, and beyond.
  • “States have long tried to influence and manipulate others in an unacknowledged or deniable manner, [which] transcends time and space.” (Rory Cormac, 16:28)
• Moving from 'naive' covert action in pre-bureaucratic eras to highly institutionalized, legally constrained forms in the post-World War II period, especially in the US.
  • “Early on…the country was doing what you might call naive covert action…without even having intelligence agencies.” (Mark Stout, 15:25)
• Non-state actors have grown increasingly prominent as both targets of, and participants in, covert action.

Contemporary and Multinational Examples

• Renditions, for example, are conducted by the US, Turkey, Nigeria, North Korea, often without calling them that across time/space.
  • “They're kidnapping people and bringing them back. We didn’t call it ‘renditions’, but essentially that’s exactly what they were doing.” (Magda Long, 20:20)
• Non-state actors are increasingly central, blurring lines between domestic and foreign covert action.
  • “Non-state actor...becoming key players in international relations...the pot is much bigger and we need to be a little bit more open-minded about this.” (Magda Long, 20:50)

4. Impact of World War II and the Cold War

Institutionalization, Professionalization, and Transnational Learning

• WWII and the Cold War codified, professionalized, and globalized covert action practices.
  • “World War II…it codified and bureaucratized, institutionalized a lot of these practices. You see states learning from each other, working together, competing...sharing doctrine, training each other.” (Rory Cormac, 22:10)
• States like France, Germany, Canada, and Australia adopted or adapted methods according to their histories, geopolitical pressures, and transfer of practices from allies or occupiers.
  • “Germany's sovereignty was very much constrained...it would be very difficult for the Germans to conduct unilateral covert actions without the United States knowing.” (Mark Stout, 25:11)
  • “Turkey was playing both sides and trying to please both...covert action as a way to navigate diplomatically, not just to influence, but navigate their own politics...” (Magda Long, 29:09)
• Not all states followed the same course; some, like Canada and Australia, demobilized or shelved covert capabilities after WWII, only to revive them much later.

5. Agency of Smaller States and the Move Beyond Great Power Narratives

Agency, Adaptation, and Local Innovation

• The book demonstrates that smaller or less-studied states are not simply copying superpowers but use covert action to serve their own ends, sometimes learning, sometimes resisting outside “models”.
  • “Lots of different countries…have their own agency, and they were doing their own thing, and they were playing states off against each other. It's a much more nuanced picture.” (Rory Cormac, 30:00)
• The editors stress a need to move away from both Anglophone and great-power-centric perspectives.

6. Factors Shaping Covert Action: Culture, Public Opinion, Political Structure

Intelligence/Strategic Culture and Risk Appetite

• National and intelligence culture shapes a country’s willingness to engage in covert operations, as do historical memories and the shadow of past scandals.
  • “Defensive, minimalist, shaped by domestic scandals…Brazil is ashamed of its past when it comes to intelligence…they want to ban intelligence, let alone covert action.” (Magda Long, 31:42)
• Political system/autocracy vs. democracy, threat perception, historical experience, and public opinion play distinct roles.

Role of Public Opinion

• For liberal democracies, public opinion may constrain or shape covert activity, especially in the aftermath of failure or exposure.
  • “Public opinion is more important in the aftermath than it is prior to the operation. If there is a blowback, then public opinion matters.” (Magda Long, 34:21)
• In autocracies or hybrid regimes, public opinion is often less significant at the planning stage.
• Cormac notes public perceptions of national identity can drive as well as restrain covert action.
  • “Weirdly, that self-perception of being a nice guy, unlike the Canadians or the Australians, actually drove Britain in a weird way towards covert action…” (Rory Cormac, 39:40)

7. Law, Oversight, and Bureaucratic Control

Legalization: Discipline or Empowerment?

• The US legal framework for covert action was developed for discipline, control, democratic legitimacy, and to respond to scandal (e.g., Watergate and Church Committee).
  • “It's about discipline, it's about control, it's about oversight and who does what... But also the disadvantage of it was that it made it rigid, bureaucratically complicated, and there's more hurdles to jump through.” (Magda Long, 42:30)
• In Canada, legal authorities were created to encourage (rare) covert action, not just to constrain it—a strikingly different mindset.
  • “They created the laws not to constrain what was being done, but to encourage, at least to some minimal degree, encourage it to be done.” (Mark Stout, 44:07)
• Legalization can paradoxically increase confidence and use of covert tools (noted for the UK), but doesn’t guarantee democratic oversight, especially in hybrid or autocratic regimes.

8. The Seduction and Pitfalls of Covert Action

Universal Seductiveness and Strategic Limits

• Covert action appeals to leaders as a quick, deniable, low-cost tool—often “seductive,” as the book and historians describe.
  • “I think I am persuaded…the seduction of it…I think leaders from many different regime types…see this as a useful tool when there is a problem which cannot be solved easily…” (Rory Cormac, 49:59)
• It is described variously as a “slow acting toxin,” a way to manage decline or a “coping mechanism” for states facing constraints (Palestine/British Mandate example).
  • “I would call it a slow acting toxin, frankly, that kind of seeps into institutions, norms, proxies. …You get addicted to it…” (Magda Long, 51:41)
• Its track record for delivering quick, untraceable results is unimpressive; it is most effective when aligned with clear policy objectives and coordinated with overt methods. Overreliance often leads to blowback, policy distortion, and long-term harm.

9. Lessons and Avenues for Future Research

Broadening the Field

• The book’s global approach reveals covert action is not the sole province of superpowers or intelligence “usual suspects.” Countries like Bulgaria, Turkey, Nigeria, and Brazil deploy covert action, driven by distinct national goals and constraints.
  • “Bulgaria put its intelligence services…to acquiring…medieval Bulgarian history [artifacts] from around the world…and at the same time discredit[ed] historians outside of Bulgaria…this whole notion of reshaping centuries-long history…as a function of an intelligence service…just struck me as really odd and remarkable.” (Mark Stout, 54:35)
• Covert action should be recognized as a fundamental element of international relations, not just a byproduct of US or Russian policy.
  • “We cannot understand international relations without understanding covert action.” (Rory Cormac, 56:13)
• Smaller and global south states are agents in their own right, using covert action to balance, navigate diplomacy, or manage domestic/external threats.

Future Directions

• Scholars are called to break out of intelligence studies “silos” and integrate covert action into mainstream international relations (IR) theory and history, engaging a broader scholarly audience.
• New trends: Growing use of covert action for “domestic” problems transposed abroad (renditions, targeted killings, etc.) and the complex intersection of domestic security and international law.

Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• On merging projects:
  “It just made sense that we all pool our resources and develop this further.” (Magda Long, 08:22)
• On definitional struggle:
  “What do we mean by influence events? What do we mean by unacknowledged?... It became quite existential.” (Rory Cormac, 08:10)
• On cultural baggage:
  “We are trying to move away from this conception…rooted in American scholarship for a long time…try to work out how much of this is just an American legal and bureaucratic term which we are wrongly using when writing about Brazil or something…” (Rory Cormac, 12:57)
• On law and culture:
  “It's a weird kind of counterintuitive outcome…that putting something on a legal framework can actually increase its usage.” (Rory Cormac, 45:38)
• On Britain’s paradox:
  “Weirdly that self perception…of being a nice guy…actually drove Britain in a weird way towards covert action…” (Rory Cormac, 39:40)
• On integrating covert action into IR:
  “…we shouldn’t just talk to each other. We should be talking to all the IR theorists and all the international historians, because this stuff is important.” (Rory Cormac, 57:08)

Key Segment Timestamps

• Genesis of the book: 04:52–08:33
• Defining covert action: 08:48–14:08
• Historical evolution: 14:59–22:47
• Impact of WWII/Cold War: 22:47–30:00
• National culture/public opinion: 31:38–41:52
• Legal frameworks: 42:30–49:28
• Seductiveness/downsides: 49:52–53:10
• Findings/future directions: 53:32–61:02

Final Takeaway

Covert Action is a landmark contribution, offering scholars and practitioners a truly global and comparative view of how states wield the most shadowy instruments of power. Its core message: Covert operations are neither solely American nor universally similar, but are shaped by each nation’s history, culture, legal systems, and strategic circumstances. To understand the real world of international politics, we must take the hidden and unacknowledged as seriously as the overt.