Podcast Summary: New Books Network – Burned by Books

Episode: Maggie Gram, "The Invention of Design: A Twentieth-Century History" (Basic Books, 2025)

Date: October 22, 2025
Host: Chris Holmes
Guest: Maggie Gram

Overview of the Episode

This rich, nuanced conversation dives into Maggie Gram’s new book, The Invention of Design, which interrogates the layered, evolving meanings of “design” in the 20th and 21st centuries. Host Chris Holmes explores Gram’s blend of cultural criticism, biography, and design history, which traces how beauty, function, problem-solving, human-centeredness, experience, and thinking have successively and sometimes simultaneously defined the world of design. Through vivid portraits—of icons like Eva Zeisel, Herbert Simon, the Eames, and contemporary leaders—Gram and Holmes lay bare how design has always been a negotiation between ideals, politics, the personal, and the institutional.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Many Histories and Definitions of Design

• Design as a Capacous Concept
  • Gram explains that "design" has evolved from meaning “art derived from drawing” to encompassing beauty, function, problem-solving, human-centeredness, experience, and ‘design thinking’ as methodology (05:51–09:12).
  • Quote:

    “Design is...what we have thought and said it was over time. So, you know, 125 years ago, the word design...meant any art that was derived from drawing...Over the course of the 20th century, people gained different senses of what this word...meant.” — Maggie Gram (05:51)

• Democratization vs. Dogmatism
  • Holmes observes that while Gram democratizes design in her analysis, many historical figures were strictly dogmatic about their own definitions (09:12).

2. Biography as a Lens for Design History

• Centering Human Stories
  • Gram organizes each chapter around key figures who embody certain definitions of design, immersing readers in the passions, ethics, and even contradictions of their approaches (10:13–14:44).
  • Notable Moment: Eva Zeisel surviving Stalinist prison, finding beauty in suffering (13:20–14:44).

    “She...stayed alive by observing kind of tiny moments of beauty, you know, a spider or a ray of light...” — Maggie Gram (13:20)

3. Design and Politics: Teague vs. Simon

• The Myth of Apolitical Design
  • Gram exposes how design has always been enmeshed with political ideologies (16:16–19:20).
• Walter Teague
  • Libertarian, anti–New Deal, saw design as corporate and technological freedom (17:19–19:20).
  • Quote:

    “His own writing about design...really took a lot of energy from this political frustration and aversion...a techno utopian libertarian impulse.” — Maggie Gram (19:08)

• Herbert Simon
  • A shape-shifting genius who moved from economics to AI; believed in “problem solving as design” but with a faith in social democracy and government’s positive role (21:57–25:37).
  • Quote:

    “He thought of...human intention, setting and planning as...the design process, and thought of all of the different kind of professions that involved...those processes...as design professions.” — Maggie Gram (22:57)

4. Design as Play: Charles and Ray Eames

• The Eameses’ “Solar Do Nothing Machine” symbolizes design as play, whimsy, and aesthetic experience—sometimes simply being rather than doing (26:28–29:20).
  • Quote:

    “Charles...wrote: ‘It is not supposed to do. It is supposed to be. Its whole function is in its being...’" — Maggie Gram (29:20)

• Holmes and Gram reflect on how joy and delight coexist with utility, advocated by the Eameses.

5. Art, Intuition, and Design: Gwendolyn Brooks at Aspen

• Notable Story: Gwendolyn Brooks challenges the notion of the artist as problem solver at a design conference, distinguishing between identifying and solving problems (31:06).
  • Quote:

    “I don’t believe it’s the province of the artist to be a problem solver...I think it’s the province of an artist to be an eye and an ear and to identify problems that maybe others will go on to solve.” — Recapped by Maggie Gram (31:45)

6. Anthropological Turns & Human-Centered Design

• Victor Papanek advocated for “design for real need,” but his anthropological claims were often shaky (34:51–35:49).
• Lucy Suchman at Xerox PARC brought genuine anthropological rigor into design, focusing on workflows and embedding observation at the heart of technological development (35:49–39:22).
• Gram notes the idealism and limitations of “human-centeredness,” emphasizing both her aspiration and skepticism toward its promises in the corporate context (40:08–42:07).

7. Pluralization and Power in User Experience (UX) Design

• Apple becomes the model for user-centered, beautiful simplicity—building on innovations at Xerox PARC (42:07–45:09).
• Dori Tunstall's leadership as the first Black dean of a design school and efforts to diversify design perspectives are highlighted (45:48–46:24).
• Gram voices hope but also concern that increasing AI and automation may stall or reverse recent gains in inclusivity in UX (46:24–48:10).
  • Quote:

    “I’ll be interested to see what hiring in UX looks like in five years...I’m not sure that it is continuing to learn from the kind of broad lived experiences of all the people who have generously participated in it.” — Maggie Gram (48:10)

8. Design Thinking: Idealism & Its Discontents

• “Design thinking” emerged as a branded methodology from ideo in the 2000s, packaging design’s multiple histories for broader application (49:40–52:52).
  • Success: Kaiser’s Nurse Knowledge Exchange, improving hand-off safety and patient experience.
  • Limits: When applied to systemic challenges like urban inequality, offers shallow solutions.
  • Quote:

    “Design thinking can also mean bringing in a team...to try to make the city...more competitive...by doing things like renaming its departments...but...the problems...go much deeper...” — Maggie Gram (52:19)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "Design is what we have thought and said it was over time." — Maggie Gram (05:51)
• “She stayed alive by observing...a spider or a ray of light. These moments of beauty...kept her alive.” — Maggie Gram on Eva Zeisel (13:20)
• “His own writing about design...really took a lot of energy from this political frustration and aversion...a techno utopian libertarian impulse.” — Gram on Walter Teague (19:08)
• “He thought of...human intention, setting and planning as...the design process.” — Gram on Herbert Simon (22:57)
• “It is not supposed to do. It is supposed to be. Its whole function is in its being...” — Charles Eames (29:20)
• “I think the thing that made me unsure whether Brooks belonged in this book was that she was talking about art and not design. But...she proves the point.” — Gram on Gwendolyn Brooks (31:06)
• “I also think that...it's so idealistic as to be dangerous in some cases. So yeah, I both think that human centeredness is an extraordinarily important idea and that...21st century design field...falls far short...” — Maggie Gram (42:00)
• “Design thinking can also mean...renaming its departments and doing some rebranding...when the problems...go much deeper.” — Gram, on the limits of design thinking (52:19)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [05:51] The evolution and definitions of “design”
• [10:13–14:44] Why biographies of designers matter—Eva Zeisel’s journey from Stalinist prison to design legend
• [16:16–19:20] Teague and conservative, techno-libertarian design politics
• [21:57–25:37] Herbert Simon: a genius’s shape-shifting path through the history of design and artificial intelligence
• [26:28–29:20] The Eameses and design as play, whimsy, and pure being
• [31:06–33:16] Gwendolyn Brooks at Aspen: art, design, and problem solving
• [34:51–39:22] Anthropological methods in design: From Papanek to Lucy Suchman
• [40:08–42:07] Gram’s skepticism and hope for human-centeredness in today’s design world
• [42:07–45:09] Apple and the transformation of user experience design; echoes from Xerox PARC
• [45:48–48:10] Dori Tunstall, inclusion, and the possible future(s) of UX in an AI age
• [49:40–52:52] The rise, uses, and blind spots of “design thinking”

Recommended Design Books (by Maggie Gram)

• Designing for People by Henry Dreyfus
  • “I still think it is one of the best design books...brings together these ideas of problem solving and aesthetics and function and human centeredness...” (53:47)
• Gram also references influential twentieth-century works through her book and the importance of reading both practitioners (Suchman, Papanek) and fiction (Ghosts by Dolly Alderton, Rob Franklin's Great Black Hope) for a richer view of how design and experience intersect.

Tone and Closing Thoughts

Gram’s narrative remains generous yet critical—never collapsing all design into one thing or another. The conversation is witty (see the “four Herbert Simons in a trenchcoat” joke at 22:43), passionate, and always intellectually curious, questioning both the achievements and limits of design’s evolving discourse.

Last words:

“Thank you so much, Chris. It’s such an honor to have you as a reader and an interlocutor. Thanks again.” — Maggie Gram (59:28)

This summary captures all major themes, salient stories, and shining moments from the interview and is a comprehensive guide for listeners and non-listeners alike.