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I'm Scott Hanson, host of NFL Red Zone.
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Jack Welch Management Institute at Strayer University helps you go from I know the way to I've arrived with our top 10 ranked online MBA. Gain skills you can learn today and apply tomorrow. Get ready to go from make it happen to made it happen and keep striving. Visit strayer.edu Jack WelchMBA to learn more. Strayer University is certified to operate in Virginia by Chev and has many campuses, including at 2121 15th Street north in Arlington, Virginia.
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Go further with the American Express Business Gold Card. Earn 3 times Membership Rewards points on flights and prepaid hotels when you book through amextravel.com whether your destination is a business conference or a client meeting, your purchases will help you earn more points for future trips. Experience more on your travels with Amex Business Gold. Terms apply. Learn more@americanexpress.com Business Gold AmEx Business Gold Card Built for business by American Express welcome to the New Books Network. Hey, Mallory.
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Hey, Mal.
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Mallory Lohr. Mallory. Claire. Claire Lohr.
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Correct.
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I'm very excited. I'm so excited. I'm going to remind myself to introduce myself, because then I'm going to forget. But first, I will introduce you. Mallory, you are the president of Random House Children's Books. I've never interviewed a president. I'm quaking in my boots.
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Maybe I'm not that kind of president.
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I gotta tell you, I met you in Bologna, and you are the kindest, gentlest, wonderful person. And it's hard for me. And you're an author and it's difficult for me to, you know, to think of you in a corporate position, running for meetings here and there. And before we talk about what your day looks like, I have to introduce myself because, you see, I've forgotten already. So I'm Mel Rosenberg and I am the host of the Children Literature Channel of the New Books Network. And I'm here with the incredible Mallory Claire Lohr. Before we start about what your job looks like as a president and what your day looks like, let's resolve a few controversies. Your last name, some People say L, some people say. But actually, you call yourself Mallory Lore. Why can't you just L O R E or something? What's all these. These. These ancient letters about?
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Well, that's what I always tell people. I said. I always say you pronounce it like folklore, because that seems to be on brand. Right. That totally makes sense. I believe it came from the German lure with lu with an umlaut HR. And like many people, when they came to the United States, they changed the spelling. There are fewer. There are a lot of L O H R s in the United States. There are fewer L O E H rs. And probably I'm related to most of the ones that spell their name L O E H R in some way, shape or form.
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Oh, wow.
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Yeah. And I will another little. The reason I always use my middle name is that I'm named after my mother, who's named Mallory.
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And you're named after your mother?
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I am named after my mother.
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That's.
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She's named after her mother. And she was. So we. This is. And Mallory is a family name. There are. There are men in the. If you go into the history who are also named Mallory. So there was actually somebody I met, somebody from work who said, is Mallory a family name? And I said, yes. And then it turned out that we are. We are like fourth cousins and that our. Her aunt was the flower girl in my grandmother's wedding. Our parents lived across. Her father and my mother lived across the street from each other. Her father's name was King Mallory. He was called King Mallory. Anyway, my mother was Mallory. So because my mother was also Mallory Lohr, I always used the Claire. And Claire was my other. My father's mother's maiden name.
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B
Okay. He lost me here. When you were a little kid, your name was Mallory?
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A
Well, I was called Mimzy as a child.
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B
Mimzy?
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Yes. My family calls me Mimsy. Like twas brillig and the slidy toes to iron gimbal and Mimsy were the bur woves and the mo Rat sound grave. And then.
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Yes. You wear the walk, my son.
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The claws that snatch the. Yes.
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B
So can we segue a bit later into Lewis Carroll? So they called you Mimsy.
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There's the name. I was called Mimsy. I always. I usually use my middle name because my mother is also Mallory Lohre. She is Mallory Siegel or Mallory Ann. Um, so that when my mother visits, my husband calls me Mallory Claire. Her Mallory. And to differentiate us and my daughter's name, I have a. I Have three children. My middle child is a daughter. And my husband said, there are too many Mallorys. And I said, how can I not continue this tradition? I said, so her name is Mallory also, and her middle name is her. My, my husband's mother's first name, which is Honora. And so her name nickname is Nori.
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B
This is, you know, names are incredible, aren't they?
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They are.
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And, and one of the writers.
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For writers names mean so much, right?
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B
Yes. And, and, and it's rare that I have an author named George Jones or, you know, or Peter Smith. There, there all always happened to be. And, and, and here's the other thing. The other controversy which we want to settle is the middle names thing. You know, I don't have a middle name.
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You don't have a middle name.
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I don't have a middle name. I was born without a middle name. And you know, the two authors that you're most famous for promoting have middle names. You know, Mary Pope, Osborne. Right, Emily.
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Yes.
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Winfield Market. So before, before our session, I asked chatgpt, we're going to talk about AI maybe a little bit to find the middle name for me.
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And what did it choose?
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Edge.
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Why? Did it give you a reason?
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Does AI need to give you a reason, Mallory? So I guess I'm going to be Mel Edge Rosenberg for our next as.
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An E E D G E Edge.
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Yes. And it's not something that's related to my mom or dad either. It's related to. Who knows? Anyway, so I should say, I should say that we should have a disclosure that my children's book, my debut book in the States, you are publishing it.
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This is true. And I'm part of your introduction should be that you are also an author.
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Well, I've been an author for about 50 years, and this is the first picture book that reached the shores of North America. And I'm so excited and a big giant. Thank you for that. And now we've had the disclosure and we've talked about controversy and middle names and a little genealogy. And now let's talk about Mallory. Let's start with what you do. What does the president do? I mean, your room is decorated. Is this the room that you had when you were executive vice president or did you have to move everything?
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I didn't move my office. I said I'm not moving to my office.
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B
Thank God for that.
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I was a child who moved a lot. So home to me is where all my stuff is, where my people are and where my stuff is. So there's too Much stuff to move. Although we have moved offices here at Random House. We moved after the pandemic within the same building. But, yes. No, I have stayed here. So what does the president of children's books do?
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B
What does your day look like when you're not being.
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What is my day? My day is filled with meetings. My day is filled with meetings. But before I had this job, I also managed five imprints. So my day was pretty much filled with meetings before. So to some degree, my day doesn't. Like, literally, if you looked on my calendar, you'd be like, it's totally full of meetings. And now it's still full of meetings, but some of the meetings are different. So one of the big differences, one of the big changes is sort of shifting into a corporate role as well as a role within the Children's Book Group. And Penguin Random House is a huge company, and there are many, many different imprints. And there are also these two sides. There's the Random House side, there's the Penguin side. So there are actually two children's groups. I head up the Random House Children's group. A woman named Jen Loja is the president of the Penguin Children's Group. And we have become best buddies because in a room full of adult publishers, we're the two. We understand.
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B
You become birds of a family.
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Yes, exactly.
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B
Yes. You and Penguin.
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A
I mean.
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B
Sorry.
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You couldn't resist. You couldn't resist. Yeah, it's okay.
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It's 19.
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A
So. Yes. So this sort of, like, in. Like, this sort of taking in sort of like, this, a much bigger corporate perspective has been fascinating. And to sort of get to be in the room with all of these really big decision makers, really smart people. Also very funny, unique people with a lot of quirks. Like, it's really. It's. It's been great to sort of get to know these. Know these different people and know, like, everybody's human. Right? So that's a big change.
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Even big shots are human.
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Even big shots are human. Everybody. Periodically somebody says something so goofy, I'm like, wow, you really are just comfortable being yourself, which is great. The authenticity you get in that room is really perfect. And I have to say, some of this is. We also have a CEO, Nihar Malaviya, who is really just an amazing human being. So smart. So unusual for a CEO to have, like, almost no ego. He is really, like, really loves to hear people's perspectives. And he's really sort of like, fascinated by everybody bringing their knowledge together and not silencing voices. So it's Been a privilege and a pleasure to get to report to him and to be part of his US Lead team.
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B
It's fantastic. People like me who look at children's books as more of a calling, I know that you have to make money, but synagogues and churches have to make money. For me, children's books are more like a synagogue or a church than a business. And you are one of the most important people now in the world in deciding what children are going to read. How does that weigh on your shoulders, Mallory?
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Well, since I've been doing this a long time and been making those choices, to me it is less about choosing what children are going to read because there's so much variety out there. You know, it's not like I'm sending. We're only going to do one kind of book. Like, the goal is to have books that represent all kids and lots of different situations. We do books that are, you know, we do books that tie into movies, and if that's going to bring a child to a book and to reading, that's great. We do books that are, like, beautifully written, or we do books that are super intense. We do books that are problem novels. We do books that are giant fantasies. We do incredible biographies. We do everything, you know, and my true goal, which is the same as it was before, is to make readers. That is that at the end of the day, is. Is to make readers. And from. From my perspective, you know, you talk about like an editorial person feeling less businessy. And I think that's totally true because to me, it's all about success, is getting more readers. And there may be some books that you're, like, this book may have fewer readers, but we are. We're making a difference here. But success is all about getting readers. Nobody wants to. Nobody wants to write a book, and nobody wants to edit and publish a book that nobody's going to read, right? So to me, the measure of a success is how many. How many readers you're getting. And then sort of like right next to that is obviously that's how many books you're selling, you know, and then when you add in sort of like the library business and that you could, if you sell one book to a library, who knows how many readers you're. You're getting. But so that library sale is also incredibly important because that is another whole bunch of readers that you actually can't even quantify. So that's how I. That's. That's how it sits on my shoulders, which is, you know, I really just. I I want to make more readers. Everybody in my team, whether it's a, it's a traditionally creative person, like an editor or designer or an untraditionally creative person, like somebody, you know in finance or production. Like, I feel like every single person here is really dedicated and believes in making more readers, so.
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B
Fantastic. So, but yeah, let, let's. I mean, you started out or you have you published a dozen children's books? Let's talk now about little Mallory growing up. What, what were your picture books as a child and where did you grow up?
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A
So my father was in the Foreign Service for the United States. And I, I believe he was in sort of like the human resources department. So he was not, he wasn't negotiating with dignitaries or any of that. He was helping sort of like the inner workings of, of the Foreign Service. He was not in CIA. People do like to say maybe he was in the CIA. He didn't speak Russian.
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I'm convinced he was a spy, but go on.
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See, of course, it's a much better story, honestly. So I was born in Mexico. I lived in Libya, and I lived in India before we moved back to the United States when I was six and we moved to Syracuse, New York. My parents were both graduate students there. I have a brother who's two years younger and a brother who's 12 years younger and my mother. And then we went to Thailand for a year. Then my father quit and then we were in Virginia. So that's sort of like my. Whatever. So you forgot Egypt?
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You forgot Egypt?
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Egypt. Well, I went to Egypt when I was in Libya. I didn't live in Egypt, but I visited Egypt. There are pictures of me as a little girl with like, you know, statues and pyramids and stuff like that. So reading as a child, I actually read a lot of British books from not living in the United States. All of my Dr. Seuss books are the UK editions. And we didn't actually have a whole lot of books because we moved so often. So libraries were always. Whenever we moved, we went to a library. It was always the first stop. So when you're a child who moves a lot, books are your friends and the characters in books are your friends. They're the people you.
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B
Who are your friends.
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As a five year old, I was a huge. I didn't have a whole lot of picture books, so I sort of went right into like really whatever they had in the library. So we moved back to the States when I was like five, six, so first grade. And my favorite books then were a Secret Garden, Secret Garden and the Little Princess. A Little Princess, which are Frances Hutcheson Burnett. And one of the reasons I liked them was that both of those were stories about little girls who'd lived in India. So it was. It was outsiders. It was sort of these outsider characters. My. My mother got her master's degree in reading.
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B
Wow.
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So. So the other thing was that she. And I want to say, actually, when we lived in India, she took a French class, and so she read us a lot of Tintins. We had them in French, and she would read us the translation. So I definitely had sort of like. I want to say like, early graphic novel. Right. But as my children like to say, terribly racist and sexist, but still like sort of like a very different kind of storytelling, which I think is interesting. Anyway, so my mother, being a graduate student and studying reading, had a lot of children's literature courses. So whatever she had in her courses, she read to us. And one of the early kind of books that she read to my brother, the longer chapter books that she read to my brother and I. My brother and me, she read to me. Yes, she read to me, were fantasy. And these ended up. Fantasy being. Ended up really being a genre that. That the three of us, like, just fell in love with. So all the Narnia books, all of Lloyd Alexander, all of Susan Cooper, she read the Hobbit out loud to us, you know, and at the same time, you know, there I was, the kid. Like, we went to the library every week. I got my 10 books, which was your maximum. I read all the way through them, and then I, you know, sent them back in. The other thing that happened was when I was about, I think, 11, maybe the Syracuse, New York, their art museum had a program where authors and illustrators came in and spoke. So my mom took me to listen to Rosemary Wells and Gerald McDermott, who did arrow to the Sun. Like, these are sort of like 70s, like, big 70s authors. Carla Kuskin. There's a fourth one I feel like I'm forgetting, but it was like, four or five creators who came in, and I was just. It was. It was amazing, you know, and this was like, old school. They had, like, an overhead projector, you know, where they put the piece of acetate down and they would draw, and it was projected up for, you know, for the audience and stuff. But. But I. I just. I just loved sort of, like, hearing about how they wrote and about how they created things. So it was. It was an interest. My interest in books was deep, very early to degree. And I would give Myself assignments, I would be like, I'm gonna read. When I was 12, I read all the newberries.
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B
Wow.
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A
Starting with, I think like Gay Neck. And then there was the Dark Frigate. And there, there were things where I was like, I didn't think I'd like them and I liked them and some I didn't like so much. But it was, you know, I was whatever that 12 year old and I noticed what was on the spines, the different publishers. You always know somebody who may go into publishing because your general reader, your general public doesn't. Doesn't care what's on the spine.
- [20:07]
B
From the age of 12 or so you said, this is going to be my career, my life.
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A
I don't know. Like, but it was my thing. You know, I defined, I was my. I defined myself as a reader being. You know, I thought, I will say I did an internship at Merrill lynch when I was in a senior in high school. And I will tell you my reasoning.
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B
My baby Taylor was the chief economist North America.
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A
Oh my God, I hated it. I will just say I hated it. But the reason I did it was because the Westing Game by Ellen Raskin was one of my very favorite books. And if you know that book, there's one of the main characters named is Turtle. And Turtle basically solves the puzzle to some degree. Turtle is obsessed with the stock market and ends up doing very well in the stock market. And it creates the relationship that solves the puzzle that's in the listing game. And so I wanted to understand the stock market because Turtle Wexler loved the stock market. And I also liked that it was, it was also, I want to say the 70s. And I was in I school in the 80s, but in the 70s there was that idea of that women could do anything and women moving into, into careers that had been traditionally male and, and definitely Wall street seemed like very much one of those places that had been traditionally male. And I was, I. I really liked the idea of like pushing into, into some. An area that was different. And my mom was a huge feminist. So I all sort of like went. Went hand in hand. I will say when I was in first grade, Mel, I wanted to be president of the United States. So I was interviewed maybe second grade, maybe second grade. I was interviewed by the newspaper like they interview.
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B
I. I was going to say that I think you should be and you know, get a few years experience as president at Random House. And from there. From Random House. From Random House to the White House.
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A
Oh, definitely. And with again a goal of like, we need to make read because a reading population makes better decisions, gives better critical thinking.
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B
I have a slogan for you, Mallory. Yes, from Random House to the White House, it's only a word away.
- [22:28]
A
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Seriously, it's $15 a month.
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No big contracts.
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- [24:20]
B
Okay, so you're.
- [24:22]
A
Going to run my campaign and that's great.
- [24:24]
B
I probably I'll run your campaign if you don't want to get elected. So you studied fine arts and creative arts at university and then you started straight on with the Random House.
- [24:37]
A
I will say when I was a When I was in high school, I shelved books in the children's room in the library and I was buddies with the librarians who showed me the catalogs that came from publishers and they got me. I was allowed to open the boxes of books and look at Them. So that was like. So I had some library experience right out of college. I managed a kid's bookstore that was co owned by my parents and another family. And I did that for a year. And then I moved to New York and worked for a literary agent whose name was Marilyn Marlowe, who was at Curtis Brown. And Marilyn was one of the original children's book agents. She represented us. Hinton, Natalie Babbitt, Paul Zindel, Jane Yoland. I mean it was just like her list was really, really incredible. One of her assistants who followed me, Elizabeth Harding, ended up taking on many of her clients. Anyway, so I did those two things and then I started Random House. And then the rest is history.
- [25:43]
B
But you also had your own parallel career as an author yourself.
- [25:47]
A
Yes, but that was always sort of like to the side. I mean, one thing about Random house in the 90s and when I first started was that there's a lot of just creation. We just, we could assistants. Could we. We would be like, we need a board book about a barn. And I'd be like, all right, I, I'm happy to write it. Um, I had a wonderful boss named, named Kate Clemo, who was really super creative and was also just very supportive and very much of a mentor. And you know, I would come up with ideas and she would be like, hey, you can go and write it. We weren't paid. I mean there was a whole there. We do things differently now for sure, but there's still plenty of places where, where writing board books and stuff is just part of somebody's job. You get to do it as you're, you know, in your day. I love, I love a good rhyme or pot. Yeah, yeah. And they can have a dozen books.
- [26:40]
B
About unicorns in reindeer.
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A
Unicorns and dragons are my favorite. You'll see there's themes. They're definitely themes. I did write four books that were sort of like, that were chapter books. About 124 pages that had really were. Had Greek myths sort of embedded in them. Because I love Greek myths. This was, I want to say pre Rick Reardon or like right about the same time. So who knows? Too bad that didn't happen to me. Joking. So, yeah. So writing and writing those books in particular because they were longer and even the short books that I did still gave me an appreciation for what it feels like to be on the other side of that table. Right. To have somebody edit you, to have somebody make comments. And. And I will say also because I mean Random House published all my books. I very much Sort of separated my, my editor role and my writer role and felt that whoever my editor was, if they were more junior than me, like, whatever, like, it was really, like I was really. I would never tell somebody. Like, you're wrong not saying that writers shouldn't tell their editors they're wrong if they thinks of things. A. But. But basically that idea of like, I was like, really let me take this feedback in and let me really think about it. And it's just so, like, well, you know, this, like, as a writer, it's. It's so helpful to have somebody who has an outside.
- [28:00]
B
Who.
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A
Who is, who is not embedded in the story the way you are. Who. But who is invested in the success of your story, what you're trying to communicate. Right. Like, that's what I always feel like. My goal is always like you, Mel, as an author, what is it that you want to say and convey to the world? And then how can we make sure that your. Your words are doing that, you're for it, or in the case of a picture book, the words and the art together are doing that.
- [28:28]
B
From my point of view, I think that you can correct me, Mallory. I think that the best thing that editors can do is show you where in the text you can improve it and not tell you how to improve it, but say, maybe this beat, you know, go home and think about it a bit. For me, that's the best. Yeah. And I get very. I get very upset when that happens. Between you and me, you've been an author yourself, and then you say, oh. And then you have this eureka moment and.
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A
Yeah.
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B
And the magic happens.
- [29:03]
A
Well, it's somebody saying, I don't quite get this. Or I, you know, or like this. This. This feels awkward to me compared to the smoothness of like, you know, these three pages or whatever.
- [29:15]
B
And without telling the author what they.
- [29:18]
A
Have to do right now, I will say like as an editor, that there are times you do. You do that sort of like calling things out and sort of like just saying like this. This character's motivation is unclear to me. And I'm talking a little bit more about longer books, more novels. Picture books are sl. Different thing because there's so few words that how you, how you grow those is a little different. But with novels, there's sort of like the multi levels. There's the, there's the big picture, there's the character development, there's the pacing. And then you do get to a place where it's the line editing where, where you might go in and say, like, what if it, what if it was this way? Although many times what you do is say like something like this, right? Maybe it's something like this. Use this as a jumping off point. Like, I'm not telling you to do it this way, but I like this might be a direction you want to take or it might give you an idea for some. A different solution. But I've also had authors get to a certain point where they're just like, oh my, for the love of God, just help me. You know, so. And because you can reach a saturation point, I'm like my, you know, my brain cannot, like, I can't problem solve this anymore. But any editor of a novel, like when I work on a novel, it's as if I'm writing it. Like I deeply engage with the story, I think through that author's lens as much as possible. Like, like even I will find that my comments will sound like that author's voice because I'm so much in it with them. Anyway, it's. Editing a novel is incredibly intense and wonderful. And it is, you know, the editor, author relationship for, for, for many, many books is a, is a wonderful and unique relationship.
- [31:12]
B
And I, I can't even imagine what it is to write a long book. You know, you write a picture book manuscript, it takes, I don't know, half an hour and then you spend five years fixing it. But anyway, and so books.
- [31:27]
A
No, it's totally true.
- [31:29]
B
Mallory. What, what intrigues me is, is your, is your book, your Alice in Wonderland. This is the. I find this, you know, Jabberwocky all over again. What. How did, how did that happen? And, and wow. How did this happen?
- [31:44]
A
Oh, well, the Alice in Wonderland. So it was Random House. We had a whole line of books which were classics rewritten at a, at a, at a lower reading level. So just making them really accessible, especially to a chapter book reader was really the goal that you were looking for a sort of a second grade reading level. And was that in the 90s, was the late 2000. It was a long time ago. I'm like, I have to dredge up the memories. I think maybe something was happening in the bigger world. Disney was reissuing Alice in one. There's often, there's a reason, especially with the classic, like there's something happening in the bigger world. And it was a huge favor of mine. And I just said I would love to do this one because I love it. And we definitely had people. I didn't do. We had people who did little golden book versions also of Secret Garden and A Little Princess. It was not me, even though those were favorite books of mine. But, yeah. Anyway, it's a great way to bring something sort of like an introduction. And it was very hard in Alice in Wonderland to pick and choose because you can't have everything when you're doing. And you're also. You're rewriting it. And, you know, obviously Lewis Carroll has incredible language, and when you're bringing it down to a second grade level, you're not gonna have quite the thing. But. But, yeah, but it's fun to do this because, you know, the story is already there. You just have to decide to, you know, which pieces you're going to bring.
- [33:10]
B
Out, whether you're doing the Mad Hatter or.
- [33:14]
A
Yeah, yeah. You. You.
- [33:15]
B
You were the Cheshire Cat.
- [33:18]
A
Oh, definitely.
- [33:21]
B
Incredible. And a few words about your huge literary and and monetary successes. Mary Pope Osborne, Emily Winfield Martin. Few words about those.
- [33:36]
A
Mary Pope Osborne wrote the Magic Treehouse series and continues. She's continuing to write them. And we now also have graphic novels coming out as well. I think we've done maybe six of them. I started working with her when I first started at Random House. Her books had been signed up and I was the editorial assistant for. For the editor who was working with actually three authors at the time, Barbara park, who did Ginnie B. Jones, Louis Sachar prior to his Newbery Wind of Holes. And that series is called Marvin Redpost. And it's brilliant. And Magic Treehouse wasn't Magic Treehouse yet. So, again, as a very young baby editor, as we say, I got to work with Mary, who was sort of like a. Definitely a known author in the school and library world. And she. She'd never really done a fantasy before. She'd done a lot of retellings. She'd done some contemporary stories, but sort of this, like, this between the age group and the fantasy element. And this was, you know, my love. It's like every kid's like, you know, if you had magic, if something happened to you, if magic happened to you. Luckily, the editor who I worked for, like, appreciated my enthusiasm, and so I really got to work with Mary really, really closely. She has funny stories about remembering me, like, meeting her at the elevator and bare feet and, you know, and she was always like, you were so close to the reader at that point, you know, so, yeah, so she actually did multiple, sort of like, different iterations. There was a magic flute, there was a magic paintbrush, and, you know, I can't remember again, sort of like in her narrative about the beginnings of this a lot. It is. She was like, I'm going to get through these four and never write another one because it's so hard. But, you know, but she hit on it. And I was not just a passionate editor. I was also very much like, at Random House would talk these books up to anybody. I said, every second grade classroom should have these books. Like, they bring you into history, they teach you all these things, but it's an adventure. They're easy to read. And I hounded my school and library marketing people, and I hounded my regular marketing people, and I talked to sales people. And Mary went on the road, like, you know, three months, you know, out of the year talking to teachers and school children. So, yeah, and somewhere around book eight, it, like, really hit and became. They became giant, giant bestsellers. And they are truly, like, in. In every school, you know, teachers design whole programs around her series. And she is a. You know, she is truly a beloved.
- [36:25]
B
So when I come in February, I want you to greet me barefoot at the elevator. And maybe some magic will happen. I can still do it with Emily's. Emily Sador.
- [36:35]
A
Oh, yeah.
- [36:35]
B
And, you know, when I picked the name Emily, I was not thinking of Emily Winfield Martin. Perhaps I should have been.
- [36:44]
A
It's a good name. Emily's good name.
- [36:47]
B
It's such a great name. It's such a great name. I think, you know, I don't know. You must have spoken to millions of authors about this. But when you write a book and it's published, sometimes it turns out that the character is speaking to you and writing itself. And I feel that Emily kind of. She wrote the book. She decided what her name was not.
- [37:08]
A
Oh, very, very common for. I mean. And I had that experience when I did my own writing, just in terms of Sometimes it was just like, oh, my God, I just gotta get it down. The movie's happening in my head and I've just gotta. I just gotta keep up. Things would happen. I would cry while I was writing. And yeah, I mean, I feel like that is a. For many, many writers there is. The story chooses them, the character tells them what they want. And occasionally an editor needs to go back and say, you actually need to tell this character. Maybe they need to pick this. And sometimes they do, and sometimes they don't. I had one author who was very much like, you can't touch my dialogue because this is what this person said. And all I would do is say, this might be what this person said, but I don't understand it.
- [37:55]
B
I just had that yesterday with My publisher in Israel. And I said she wanted the main character to apologize. And I said, well, she doesn't. She's not going to say I'm sorry. She can say something.
- [38:11]
A
Exactly.
- [38:12]
B
But we understand each other. Okay, so now let's move forward now to your new position. You're publishing hundreds of children's books a year, and it's incredible. What are the challenges? What are the threats? Is AI a friend, a foe? Where are we going forward here? Is there a future for picture books? I hope there is.
- [38:42]
A
Oh, 100, 100%. A couple things. I mean, really right now, when we think of the biggest two pieces, one is book banning that is happening in the United States and Penguin Random House is particularly. We are on top of it. We've had an amazing lawyer on this sort of like full time, and we very much support our authors, the educational community. So that's a big, that is a big challenge. I feel like there's a certain, you know, warrior quality to being in publishing, you know, these days, and that you feel like you were, I was like, it's so funny, like as a giant publisher, to be like, we're standing up to the man, you know, but it is, but it, you know, but it is true. So I feel like that is a big challenge, you know, children's attention, attention span, screen time. I mean, I think that is another really big challenge for us. It's. But those challenges have always existed, right, in terms of like the choices children have in what they're going to do with their time. And people have said repeatedly, publishing is over. This kind of book is over, that kind of book is over, and it has never happened yet. And, and I will say, I feel like a big part of that is because people write stories and are driven to write stories. And the number of young people we have writing stories, you know, that just tell, it's just people need to tell stories. It is an int. Intense human need to explain your. Yourself, your world, the bigger world. And I, I think our desire for storytelling and, and books and the words where people take those words and that story and then actually personalize it. You, you, you personalize a book and what it can be, an audiobook. It doesn't matter what form of that book is in, but it's personalized by, by you. Even a picture book, like your brain fills out all these things. I mean, it is human thing that you take somebody's creative work and you add your own essence to it, you know, and that can happen in storytelling in other ways. But I think not as intensely as it does in books. So that saying, I think books, I think that kind of content and that content creation, it's. We've weathered so many different sort of quote, threats. But I do think sort of this idea of like, that's why to me, making readers is the mission. AI is definitely something everybody talks about. AI we always say here, any AI that's used starts with human, ends with human. And so it feels like something we all need to embrace. I don't feel particularly threatened in terms of like, yes, AI will make books that will happen. Like there have been those threats that have existed forever, one way or the other. Um, I mean, people thought self published books were gonna like end traditional publishing. That didn't happen. Um, you know, so it's a, It's a new technology. And I think we're all still. And anybody in content creation is still figuring it out. Um, it ha. It's a little. When I started Random House, which was in 1990, we had typewriters. We had typewriters. There were two computers on the floor that I worked on and you could. They were black screens, little green cursors, and you could like. You had to type in very specific things and then it would spit out information. So within my first few years of being at Random House, basically working on computers came in and that every changed. It changed how we worked, but it didn't change people's need to write stories and read stories and make stories. How they were creating the stories was different writers. The story. Evolution always happens. Styles change. People always follow trends. You know, there seems to be. I've read a lot about sort of like the history of publishing. There have always been the trends of like the super popular pop. Pop writing versus literary writing. Do you know the term carriage trade? Carriage trade is sort of like, you think of like our like. So basically we sort of. And it's sort of an. It's an archaic term, but it's like indie bookstores are sort of carriage trade, Barnes and Nobles carriage trade. If you're going to buy your book from a grocery store, that is not carriage trade. And it comes from, I believe, if I'm remembering correctly, like colonial times. So it's literally where the people had the money to take a carriage to go to the store. So that sort of differentiation between the like, you know, the pop, easy, less expensive and sort of like the fancy. But that's always existed. And I'm a big believer in kids books that the readers. The readers go both places, right?
- [43:33]
B
You're not, you're not. You don't feel threatened by AI and.
- [43:37]
A
No, but I feel.
- [43:39]
B
Is it verboten? Is it something to what extent you think that authors. I mean, we're all using A.I. let's face it, we're not using it perhaps to write this story.
- [43:52]
A
Right, right. But Google's information. Right? I mean, you know, when you Google.
- [43:58]
B
You use the AI, I mean.
- [43:59]
A
Exactly, exactly. So I think it's just. How is it going to impact us, sort of the question. Because as you said, we, we, we, we all use it in some way, shape or form. I mean, and it is something that we are where, you know, we're looking at here and figuring out it's a tool and how do you best use it. And having weathered again, sort of like the various, the various changes, this is, this is another one. And I guess my question for myself in this is that idea of like, that transition from how we made books pre, whatever, 1992, like, is it going to be that kind of transition? And I mean, that's one of my challenges. Right. Is like, you know, will this be a thing? And it for sure will be a thing. But how, exactly how. And, you know, this is where, Mel, we're, we're making history here. We're like, in it, so we can't necessarily see. All I can say is I know we're, we're in the moment and we're all figuring it out together. And that's really the goal.
- [45:02]
B
You know, I really think that, that that's really the best, the best answer I've heard. Because, you know, I can imagine, you know, when Adobe came out and people said, oh, you know, computers are going to be able to do artwork. And there's always this, you know, we have this innate fear of technology, including me, because I use this thing, you know, I walk around with this and people ask me, what is this? Oh, before there were typewriters. I do my best writing with the pencil.
- [45:34]
A
I print. I print every. I print things out. I like to print it out, I like to highlight things. But I'm happy to have the world in my pocket with my phone.
- [45:45]
B
And I can't write well with this one because it's 6B. I do my best writing with 8B. I didn't have one hanging Mallory, surrounded.
- [45:55]
A
By all of the things to write with. Yeah.
- [46:00]
B
First of all, I'm incredibly lucky to have met you. And I know that the people who've been watching this are incredibly lucky to hear your story. And I am the miracle in my life of having a Book soon to be published with Random House, is really incredible for me. Super honored. And I guess that my last question is. What Haven't I asked you?
- [46:27]
A
Haven't you?
- [46:28]
B
I've tried to ask you what happened.
- [46:31]
A
Everything. Oh, you know what? I'm gonna backtrack and give you a teeny bit of Emily Martin history, because I think it is interesting and it is about discovery.
- [46:42]
B
Also, don't forget the Winfield.
- [46:46]
A
The Winfield, yes. Well, I think that's. There was maybe another Emily Martin. Like, because as you said, they're not a lot of George Gilt's. Because if there was George Jones, they're either Mel Rosenberg. Ah, yeah.
- [46:57]
B
Which is why I have to be Mel Edge Rosenberg now.
- [47:01]
A
Well, you know, actors do that all the time, where they're like, somebody else has this name, so we have to do this name. But she was somebody. I was a early adopter of Etsy. Like, I loved that it was a place where there were, like, people creating things. And I found her work on there. She was actually one of the. One of the early people who did very, very well there.
- [47:24]
B
Incredible. And that's incredible.
- [47:27]
A
Yeah. And I bought a whole bunch of her prints and I reached out to her and I was just like, I love this. And I was not alone. Apparently there were other editors out there in the world who, like, reached out to her and tried to, like, figure something out, but whether I stuck with it longer, I mean, she. I count her as one of my dearest friends. And I have to say, Mary Pope Osborne, I also, like, they're. They're people who are so deeply part.
- [47:56]
B
Of my life, you know, can you organize that? I shall interview them someday.
- [48:02]
A
I will do my best to do that. Yeah. Yeah. So just. That's just an interesting thing. You, you, you never know as an editor. And I would say you maybe never know as a creator, like, who's going to find you and who is going to support you and help you look at, like, what you can. What you can do. And so, yeah, I always also tell people, like, if you're a writer, if you are somebody, you can't not write. You're a writer, and you just need to find that person who gets you. You need to find, like, I was just like, don't, don't give up in terms of publishing in some way, shape or form. And.
- [48:45]
B
Never, never, never, ever, never give up. Want to guess how many times I was rejected? No. About 300.
- [48:54]
A
Oh, my gosh. Yeah. See?
- [48:56]
B
Never give up. Never give up.
- [48:58]
A
And I will also say there is. There's no shame at all in self publishing if you are somebody who really like you want this out there. Like I feel like that's another place of discovery. Definitely people who have self published have like then been been taken on by really quote the big five or even just a more traditional publisher. So storytelling is vital to humanity. So don't stop writing. I think that's my big, my biggest message is don't stop writing. Don't stop telling stories and people are out there to listen to them and never give up.
- [49:38]
B
I like to say there is this miracle when somebody understands you and says yes, I'm going to publish that story. It's a real miracle. Mallory, this has been incredible. But what's most incredible for me is that he's such a wonderful human being. You think of the president of Random House children's books and all this corporate and I guess you don't walk barefoot anymore on the halls but only when no one's here. Your soul is definitely barefoot. And I can't wait to walk barefoot with you in February.
- [50:17]
A
Maybe not in February. You need to come in maybe June.
- [50:21]
B
It may be metaphoric though we might not actually be there.
- [50:25]
A
My six year old self takes it very literally. We could always walk on the floor here though. We won't tell anybody. We'll wait for everybody.
- [50:34]
B
So I always. So this is going to be the last question because I was going to spin spare you this question and now I'm not going to spare it anymore. Are you a six year old at heart? Do you write to as I do to tell my 5 year old that when he grows up, which he never will, things aren't going to be so bad in the end. Do you address your 6 year old?
- [50:55]
A
Is that I actually think that I feel like I'm a 12 year old at heart because I'm on the cuff. Like to me. Well, because as a 12 year old I loved picture books. I loved my childhood. I was aware of adulthood looming and I had, I, you know, I had the experience and you know you're on that. It's just the cusp. So I feel like that's where I live. I live on this, this, this in between place between childhood and adulthood.
- [51:26]
B
That's okay being a 12 year old. You can be my older sister as long as, as long as you're a kid at heart. Right. This is, this is so many of the people I interview are kids at heart and that's what makes it so much fun.
- [51:38]
A
Yeah, absolutely.
- [51:40]
B
And so, and so it's time to go. Time to go and this was wonderful.
- [51:46]
A
You're kicking me off?
- [51:50]
B
No, I'm not kicking you out. Would you want to stay more? We can. We can stay for hours if you like.
- [51:55]
A
That's okay. I know we could do a whole nother session and I could just. Just talk with you. So that's. I'm really. I'm really looking forward to you coming in February. I. I'm going to say I think you should do a session with Annie and talk all about Emily's door.
- [52:11]
B
Oh, okay. I. I have actually booked Annie.
- [52:14]
A
You've booked yourself?
- [52:16]
B
No, I. I booked an interview with her. I was going to ask Good about her life, but you've given me an idea. Maybe I should book her twice. Want to talk about Annie and wants to talk about Emily. Yeah, let's do. Let's do that. It's been great. Mallory, we really should go. You know know it's been an hour. You have. You know, you have books to.
- [52:34]
A
I know. I. I have a lunch. I have a lunch to go to on my very busy schedule.
- [52:38]
B
We.
- [52:39]
A
We. We.
- [52:39]
B
We can do this again sometime. We'll talk in February. We'll find another subject to talk about. And, and so, Mallory, Claire Lore, President of Random House Children's Books. This has been wonderful. And I am Mel Edge Rosenberg, the host of the Children's Literature Channel of the New Books Network. Mallory's been wonderful.
- [53:00]
A
Thank you so much, Mal and I will see you in February. Bye.
- [53:15]
B
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