Episode Overview
Podcast: New Books Network
Episode Title: Marek Kohn, "The Stories Old Towns Tell: A Journey Through Cities at the Heart of Europe" (Yale UP, 2023)
Host: Dr. Miranda Melcher
Guest: Dr. Marek Kohn
Date: November 24, 2025
In this episode, host Dr. Miranda Melcher interviews Dr. Marek Kohn about his book The Stories Old Towns Tell: A Journey Through Cities at the Heart of Europe. The discussion explores how historic European city centers—especially those devastated during World War II—were rebuilt, reimagined, and used to tell stories about national identity, resilience, and memory. The conversation covers the evolution of old towns from marginalized urban areas to prized sites of heritage and tourism, investigates the ethical, practical, and symbolic choices behind their reconstruction, and reflects on the power of old towns to shape cultural and political narratives—past and present.
Main Themes and Discussion Points
1. Dr. Marek Kohn’s Inspiration and Background
[02:49–07:16]
- Kohn’s Anglo-Polish heritage gave him unique insight into issues of national identity.
- The idea for the book stemmed from a realization of his attachment to European old towns, especially after Brexit prompted him to reflect on belonging and the Europeanness of such sites.
- The attraction to old towns was not just aesthetic but deeply connected to issues of memory, history, and political divisions:
"This was actually not about the delights of old towns. That was a starting point, but it was actually about the divisions of Europe, about fundamental questions of national identity, of how peoples and relationships between peoples are represented, and about some of the most tragic and catastrophic events of the past century." —Marek Kohn [05:28]
2. Old Towns Before Their “Restoration”
[08:06–13:24]
- In the 19th century, urban expansion left old towns marginalized, often becoming overcrowded, dilapidated, and seen as centers of social problems.
- Cultural elites later “rediscovered” their value as heritage and hubs of resistance, especially in places under imperial rule, such as Warsaw:
"All of a sudden they go, hang on a minute. This is part of our history, part of our heritage. It's part of our national character. Don't do this. We should improve these places, but in a way that retains their physical form but enhances them." —Kohn [10:17]
- Gentrification and cultural investment turned declining centers into symbols of national resistance and renewal.
3. Destruction and The Allied Perspective in WWII
[14:00–18:08]
- Old towns, because of their density and flammability, were often purposely targeted during Allied air raids:
"The Allied perspective, particularly the aerial perspective of the Royal Air Force, was that old towns were firelighters." —Kohn [14:02]
- Arthur Harris, RAF Bomber Command, described Lübeck’s historic center explicitly as a “firelighter.”
- Irony: Shortly after destruction, Allied personnel assisted in the preservation and reconstruction of cultural monuments they had just bombed.
- Rapid postwar transition from destroyers to protectors/restorers of heritage.
4. Political, Moral, and Symbolic Challenges of Rebuilding
[18:52–24:48]
- In Poland (e.g., Warsaw), rebuilding old towns was about national resilience and defeating the legacy of destruction:
"Rebuilding the old town of Warsaw... was an expression of national spirit. It was saying, yes, it was destroyed. We’re not going to let that stand." —Kohn [19:37]
- In Germany, the challenge was fraught: How to rebuild a past now seen as morally compromised? Reconstructing buildings like Goethe’s birthplace in Frankfurt sparked debates about denial or commemoration.
- Frankfurt sought modernity with brutalist architecture, though dissatisfaction later led to reconstructing old-style streetscapes (reopened 2018).
5. Reconstruction: Practical and Logistical Realities
[25:24–31:36]
- Clearing rubble was both practical and highly symbolic (“Trümmerfrauen”—rubble women in Germany).
- In Poland, community involvement in rubble-clearing symbolized national unity and collective renewal:
"It involved the people. It looked like a collective national enterprise and therefore it became a symbol of national unity." —Kohn [26:21]
- Material shortages led to resource transfers between cities: 18th-century buildings in Breslau/Wroclaw (deemed “German”) were removed to provide bricks for Warsaw's historic Polish buildings—highlighting political narratives even in logistics.
- Corruption emerged, notably in “brick trafficking” scandals.
6. Selective History and Style Choices in Reconstruction
[32:12–36:30]
- Rebuilders did not simply rebuild “the past”—they chose eras and styles reflecting their identity and political needs.
- In Poland, restoration emphasized ethnic and historical “Polishness,” erasing traces of Jewish, German, or multiethnic heritage.
"So the past is not just the past to be taken as a whole or left. The past is a collection of potential resources from which each successive historical moment takes what it thinks it needs." —Kohn [32:12]
- In Wroclaw, formerly German Breslau, buildings with “Polish” architectural features were privileged or (re)designed to project a fabricated continuity.
7. Comparisons: Lithuania and Vilnius
[36:52–41:51]
- Vilnius’s old town saw less material destruction but dramatic population transformation: prewar majority Polish and Jewish, postwar repopulated with Lithuanians.
- Post-independence, major buildings (like the Grand Duke’s palace) were reconstructed to serve current narratives of Lithuanian identity:
"They had to do an architect’s impression of it. And this is now the sort of key vessel articulating the Lithuanian national story." —Kohn [40:23]
- Emphasis on local, “Lithuanian” architectural traditions, sometimes at the expense of acknowledging earlier multicultural realities.
8. Remembering (or Forgetting) Jewish Histories
[42:23–49:20]
- The legacy and erasure of Jewish heritage in cities like Vilnius: Postwar neglect, selective preservation as “poignant monuments of loss,” and limited integration of Jewish narratives into dominant urban histories.
- In Polish cities like Lublin, innovative memorials (such as transforming the surviving city gate into a center commemorating the vanished Jewish quarter) help revive historical memory and drive urban renewal.
"A fascinating project and a really inspiring example of how civic society can reinvent Old towns." —Kohn [47:38]
9. Old Towns as Symbols: Relevance Today
[49:42–52:35]
- Old towns are "concentrations of meaning," with the power to shape civic and national identity inclusively or exclusively.
- They offer opportunities for healing and dialogue, but also for exclusion and myth-making, depending on who controls their narrative:
"At a time when there are profound tensions around visions of national identity and of civic identity... Old towns are potentially immensely valuable resources for... enabling people to live better with each other. And by the same token, they're potential sources of division..." —Kohn [50:00]
- The everyday pleasures of old towns (ice cream in the square, etc.) are themselves “one of Europe’s greatest achievements,” representing convivial diversity.
10. Current and Future Projects
[52:58–56:31]
- Kohn is now involved with Ukrainian cultural initiatives in Brighton, drawing parallels with the role of cultural practices (intangible heritage) in sustaining communities in exile.
"With Old Towns, I was talking about... physical heritage, and now I'm talking about what in the jargon is intangible heritage... music and song and costume. And it's very uplifting." —Kohn [55:28]
Notable Quotes
"None of that is accidental. None of that is inevitable. And it's all quite fascinating." —Dr. Miranda Melcher [01:21]
"I think, yes, it's those places that... make you feel that you're transported back to a different time." —Marek Kohn [04:25]
"The past is not just the past to be taken as a whole or left. The past is a collection of potential resources from which each successive historical moment takes what it thinks it needs." —Kohn [32:12]
"So the whole nation was rebuilding the capital, even if it wasn't actually physically handing one piece of brick to the next person in the chain." —Kohn [27:11]
"Old towns matter because they are central symbolic districts, because they're concentrations of meaning, because they are intensely rich sources of text and narrative and imagery." —Kohn [49:42]
Key Timestamps
- [02:49] – Marek Kohn introduces his background/inspiration for the book
- [08:06] – Evolution of old towns before WWII
- [14:00] – The Allied bombing perspective
- [18:52] – Political-moral questions in post-war rebuilding
- [25:24] – Practical labor and logistics of reconstructing old towns
- [32:12] – How style and era were chosen for reconstruction
- [36:52] – Differences in Vilnius, Lithuania
- [42:23] – Approaches to Jewish history and memory
- [49:42] – Why old towns matter today
- [52:58] – Kohn’s current work with Ukrainian culture in Brighton
Tone & Engagement
The conversation is candid, thoughtful, and deeply engaged with questions of history, identity, and memory. Dr. Melcher creates an open stage for Kohn’s reflections, which blend analytical clarity with personal passion and lived experience. The episode balances historical narrative, critical theory, and contemporary relevance, offering valuable insights for both academic and general audiences.