Podcast Summary
New Books Network
Episode: Marion Gibson, "Witchcraft: A History in Thirteen Trials" (Scribner, 2023)
Host: Dr. Miranda Melcher
Guest: Dr. Marion Gibson
Release Date: December 30, 2025
Episode Overview
Dr. Miranda Melcher interviews Dr. Marion Gibson about her new book, Witchcraft: A History in Thirteen Trials. The book explores over 700 years of witchcraft trials, selecting 13 pivotal cases from different regions and periods. Gibson examines changing definitions of “witchcraft,” the recurring characteristics of both the accused and accusers, and the continuing relevance of witch trials and persecution in the modern world. The conversation traverses history, gender, colonialism, and contemporary political rhetoric, emphasizing the adaptability and endurance of the witchcraft accusation throughout time.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. Author’s Motivation & Perspective
- Gibson’s Background: Professor at Exeter University, began with an Elizabethan witchcraft pamphlet that gave her insight into the voices of marginalized, often illiterate women.
“[W]e were hearing from obscure people…a lot of them were women…they were talking to us about their daily lives and I hadn't heard from those people before.” (03:00, Gibson)
- Driven by interest in the history of accused women, how they use stories of magic to discuss their realities.
2. Book Structure: Why Thirteen Trials?
- The book covers 700 years. Gibson selected “biggies” (e.g., Salem, Witchfinder General) and less-known but crucial cases, alongside receptivity of the witch concept in modern times.
- First half focuses on prominent historical witch hunts.
- Second and third parts consider “witch trials” in broader contemporary contexts (Africa, North America, modern political “witch hunts”).
“I tried to, over the course of 700 years, take people on a tour of what the word witch meant in different eras…” (05:38, Gibson)
3. Characteristics of the Accused and Accusers
The Accused
- Gendered History: Most accused were women, often poor or standing out socially, sometimes due to sexual or religious “transgressions.”
- Traits like poverty, marginalization, perceived heresy recur across eras.
- Fraud, criminality, or simply being different could trigger accusations.
“…they very often tend to be poor people…people who stand out in society…those kind of people tend to get accused right the way across seven centuries.” (07:00, Gibson)
- Sometimes characteristics associated with accusers also mirrored by the accused (e.g., “trickery”).
- Book closes with a checklist of persecuted people's traits for readers to use in analysing current events.
The Accusers
- Accusers frequently also notable for being outside norms, sometimes under suspicion or in need of deflecting blame.
- Power Dynamics: Sometimes powerful figures (King James VI, governors), sometimes vulnerable ones seeking scapegoats.
- The “witch hunt” label is appropriated in contemporary politics (e.g., Donald Trump).
“One of the ways that they then deflect suspicion and criticism from themselves is to accuse other people of witchcraft.” (11:25, Gibson)
“A lot of it is about scapegoating…often there are people who are authority figures who are stamping down on what they see as dissent.” (13:25, Gibson)
4. Notable Trials Highlighted
a. Innsbruck 1485 (Heinrich Kramer & Helena Scheuberin)
- Chosen to challenge expectations: infamous witch-hunter Kramer is “undone” by Scheuberin, who resists his accusations, demonstrating that not all trials ended in tragedy for the accused.
“…she challenges the witch hunter...she is a lot more successful in defending herself than people might expect her to be.” (15:50, Gibson)
b. Salem & Pre-Salem America
- Salem is not the “starting point” of American witch trials.
- Trial of Joan Wright in Virginia (1626) predates Salem by 70 years, revealing the colonial and legal diversity of early witch trials.
“No sooner had people got to the New World than they started looking out for scapegoats and persecuting witches.” (23:44, Gibson)
c. France 1730s – Mary Catherine & Jean Baptiste
- Marks the “hinge” or turning point where definitions of witchcraft shift.
- Both accuse each other; courts begin to sideline “witchcraft” as a formal charge, focusing on other crimes instead.
“The edict starts to redefine the idea of witchcraft as being to do with trickery and poisoning rather than being to do with devil worship…” (30:20, Gibson)
d. Witch Trials & Colonialism
- Featured cases from Norway (Sami people), Massachusetts (Native Americans), and Lesotho (African leaders) demonstrate how colonial powers deployed witchcraft accusations to demonize the “other.”
“Indigenous people are often the first to get accused in a witch trial…” (35:25, Gibson)
5. The Flexibility & Modern Relevance of Witch Trials
- Witch trials adapt to social anxieties of their time, not a static historical phenomenon.
- Comparison of classical demonology to modern conspiracy theories (e.g., QAnon).
- The “witch hunt” is a perennial form of scapegoating and silencing, both literally and metaphorically.
“Once you think about it in the context of the long history of the witch trial, you think, hang on, yeah, but what was demonology? That was a conspiracy theory.” (37:37, Gibson)
- Calls for teaching witchcraft as a “history of persecution,” linking past patterns to the present.
6. Why Does the Pattern Persist?
- Deep psychological or cognitive binaries (e.g., good/evil) may “bake in” scapegoating tendencies.
- Modern society still falls into similar patterns despite progress; binary thinking, the urge to analyze and categorize, “dehumanizes” subjects.
“I think the way that we structure that world is so often a binary one…The more that we divide history up in those binary ways, the more we're actually not really addressing the complexity of human history.” (42:13, Gibson)
7. Application: Thinking About Persecution Today
- Gibson urges readers to scrutinize any group being demonized.
“Do these people have any of the characteristics laid out in this book that categorize the witch;…if they do…think a bit harder about…whether they are falling into the classic human error of scapegoating, holding a witch trial.” (43:40, Gibson)
8. Looking Forward: Gibson’s Next Project
- Large-scale history of the Matthew Hopkins/Witchfinder General trials in Eastern England—focusing on the voices of the accused, not just witch-hunters.
- The project leverages new digital tools to reconstruct these histories from parish records, wills, and community evidence.
“…trying to tell their stories rather than the stories of the witch hunters and to give those people back their voice…” (46:12, Gibson)
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
-
“We were hearing from obscure people…talking to us about their daily lives and I hadn't heard from those people before.”
(03:00, Gibson) -
“I tried to…take people on a tour of what the word witch meant in different eras and what the idea of the witch trial meant in different eras and what it might mean today…”
(05:38, Gibson) -
“It's a book about what are the traits of persecuted people. Why is this? How does this last over time? Is there anything we can do about it?”
(09:08, Gibson) -
“The key person shouting ‘witch hunt’ in contemporary times is Donald Trump, who has been accused, rightly I think, of all sorts of other things, and uses that phrase…as a deflector.”
(12:49, Gibson) -
“I did want to start with a surprise…I enjoyed doing that.”
(17:30, Gibson) -
“No sooner had people got to the New World than they started looking out for scapegoats and persecuting witches…”
(23:44, Gibson) -
“I want people to look at any group that they're being encouraged to persecute and think, do these people have any of the characteristics…that define the witch?”
(43:42, Gibson)
Timestamps for Key Segments
- 01:06 — Introduction to episode and book
- 02:02 — Gibson’s motivation and scholarly background
- 03:45 — Why 13 trials? Book structure explained
- 06:45 — Characteristics of the accused; persisting patterns
- 10:28 — Characteristics of the accusers; scapegoating and power
- 15:16 — First trial (Kramer & Helena Scheuberin); overturning expectations
- 18:41 — Impact of the Reformation on witch trials
- 23:20 — The Virginia 1626 trial and American witch-hunting diversity
- 25:48 — French turning-point trial; legal and conceptual shift
- 33:53 — Witchcraft and colonial power/politics across centuries
- 37:11 — The adaptability of witch trials; contemporary resonance
- 40:56 — Why does scapegoating/witch-hunting persist?
- 43:42 — Applying the witch-trial lens to today’s persecutions
- 45:21 — Gibson’s upcoming research project
Concluding Remarks
Dr. Marion Gibson’s Witchcraft: A History in Thirteen Trials not only provides a sweeping, richly researched account of witch trials through centuries, but also challenges listeners and readers to see the enduring patterns of persecution in history and today. The episode is essential for anyone interested in gender, law, colonialism, religious history, and the mechanics of scapegoating that persist in our societies.