Podcast Summary: New Books Network

Episode: Mark Vellend, "Everything Evolves: Why Evolution Explains More than We Think, from Proteins to Politics"
Date: September 27, 2025
Host: Gregory McNiff
Guest: Mark Vellend, Professor of Biology, Université de Sherbrooke

Overview

In this episode, host Gregory McNiff interviews biologist Mark Vellend about his new book, Everything Evolves: Why Evolution Explains More than We Think, from Proteins to Politics. The conversation explores the expansion of evolutionary theory from a strictly biological framework to a generalized process that encompasses culture, technology, economics, and more. Vellend discusses the foundations of generalized evolution, his "evolutionary soundboard" model, and the cross-disciplinary implications of evolutionary thinking. The episode is rich with examples—from bird beaks to smartphones, genetic engineering to AI—showing how the principles of evolution shape both the natural and human-made worlds.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Motivation Behind "Everything Evolves"

• Democratizing Evolutionary Theory:
  • Vellend seeks to communicate the broad application of evolutionary principles beyond biology, into human culture, economics, and technology.
  • He emphasizes reaching a broad audience without making biology the sole central discipline.
  • “I really thought there was a need for a book that presented these really important ideas in a way that…puts all the relevant disciplines on an equal footing, that doesn’t…place biology in some…greater importance.” — Mark Vellend (02:25)

Two Sciences: Physics and Evolution

• First vs. Second Science:
  • Vellend borrows Graham Bell’s term, calling evolution "the second science," with physics deemed "the first science."
  • Physics sets constraints; evolution sets the rules for change.
  • “In the game of life, the first science establishes the constraints, the second science sets the rules.” — Mark Vellend (06:00)
• Examples:
  • Physical laws limit the shapes of whales or the ingredients of pizza, but evolutionary processes explain how such specific manifestations arise and change over time. (06:14)

The Historic Crossflow Between Social Sciences and Biology

• Social Science Influences:
  • Early evolutionary ideas often flowed from social sciences (like linguistics and economics) into biology, not just the reverse.
  • Darwin may have drawn on economic theory (e.g., Adam Smith’s ideas) for his models (08:20).
• Language and Evolutionary Analogy:
  • The development of languages provided a model for shared descent and divergence, influencing evolutionary biology (09:00).

The "Darwinian Distraction"

• Broadening Beyond Darwin:
  • Vellend argues that an obsession with strictly Darwinian (biological) mechanisms can hinder broader evolutionary understanding, especially outside biology (11:33).
  • “Arguments about whether cultural evolution is specifically Darwinian suggest a…false dichotomy between biological and cultural evolution, which I think distracts us from the goal…” — Mark Vellend (13:46)

Defining Evolution for All Realms

• Vellend’s Generalized Definition:
  • “In the realms of life and culture, everything evolves”—inclusive of technology and social processes (14:35).
  • The evolutionary process demands:
    1. Variation (multiple options must exist),
    2. Inheritance (traits or features passed through time),
    3. Differential Success (some variants persist while others fade) (16:35).

The "Evolutionary Soundboard" Framework

• Eight Dials Model:
  • Vellend introduces a metaphorical "soundboard" with eight adjustable dials to characterize evolution in any domain (18:56).
    • Covers speed/degree of variation, kinds of inheritance, forms of selection, and movement between systems.
    • The same framework can be tuned for bacteria, financial systems, cultural practices, etc.
  • “All of them are driven by variation, generation, inheritance, differential success. And…the one we haven’t mentioned yet…is movement between some semi independent parts of that system.” — Mark Vellend (21:07)

Levels and Units of Evolution

• Practical Focus Choice:
  • The level of analysis (genes, individuals, organizations, cultural practices) is a practical decision and requires simplifying assumptions about other levels (23:18).

Short-Term vs Long-Term Notions of Success

• Fitness Is Multifaceted:
  • In the short term, multiple indicators of success/failure are possible; long-term, there’s convergence on a single measure (e.g., prevalence or fitness) (25:33).

Variation: When More Isn't Better

• Optimal Variation:
  • Too much variation can be harmful, especially when systems are already well-adapted—e.g., bird beaks or intricate technologies like Japanese swords (34:49).
  • But without some ongoing variation, adaptation halts.

Feedback Loops in Evolution

• Positive and Negative Feedback:
  • Positive feedback drives runaway change (e.g., software platforms becoming standard because many use them).
  • Negative feedback stabilizes systems (e.g., population checks in ecosystems or markets) (36:51).

Selection: Differential Advantage and Feedback

• Simple But Powerful:
  • “Selection” is when certain types systematically outperform others.
  • Two main forms:
    1. Directional (consistent push in one direction)
    2. Frequency-dependent (dependent on prevalence and feedback) (39:10).

Movement: Gene Flow, Cultural Exchange, Migration

• Importance of Movement:
  • Movement connects semi-independent systems, shaping evolution in both biology (gene flow between populations) and culture (spread of ideas/practices) (40:53).
  • Human-driven movement (ideas, species, people) is a dominant evolutionary force today.

Examples of Evolution in Action

Artificial Intelligence

• From First to Second Science:
  • Early rule-based (physics-like) AI gave way to evolutionary techniques (machine learning, neural networks).
  • Computers now “evolve” solutions via data and feedback, often exceeding human-designed algorithms.
  • “We’re essentially giving computers instructions on how to implement evolution…step by step, it basically goes through an evolutionary process that ultimately finds an excellent…solution.” — Mark Vellend (44:05)

Genetic Engineering

• Directed Variant Generation:
  • While it feels like precise control, most genetically engineered variants fail; it’s an evolutionary process of generating, selecting, and discarding variants.
  • “Genetic engineering is one way of producing variants in a directed way…a great many products of genetic engineering fail, just as a great many natural mutations do not succeed either.” (48:06)

Adaptive Evolution & Suboptimal Outcomes

• Adaptation is Not Always Optimum:
  • Constraints and historical accidents mean evolutionary processes often lead to suboptimal solutions, due to getting stuck at local fitness peaks or through feedback processes (50:06).

Critical Transitions & Tipping Points

• Rapid, Hard-to-Reverse Change:
  • In both natural and engineered systems, positive feedbacks can push systems across thresholds (e.g., conifer vs. maple forests, coral to algae reefs), causing abrupt and persistent state changes (52:21).

Diversity, Homogenization, and Value Judgments

The Role of Diversity

• Benefits and Limits:
  • Diversity (genetic, ecological, cultural) often fosters resilience and innovation but is context-dependent. Too much can also lead to conflict or inefficiency (56:17).

McDonaldization

• Globalization & Hybridization:
  • Spread of global brands (e.g., McDonald's) can decrease some forms of diversity, but also generates novel local-global hybrids—not universally negative or positive (58:51).

Evolution and Education

Rethinking Academic Structure

• Evolution as a Cross-Disciplinary Anchor:
  • Vellend proposes universities consider organizing around "first" (physical) and "second" (evolutionary) sciences, rather than the social/natural split, to foster interdisciplinary collaboration (60:37).
  • Such an approach could be grasped even by high school students, equipping them to recognize evolutionary processes everywhere.

Speculation: Evolution Beyond Earth

• Cosmological Evolution?:
  • Discussion concludes with the possibility of evolutionary processes at the cosmic scale (e.g., black holes creating universes tuned for their own production), prompting musings on flipping the order to call evolution the "first science" (63:06).
  • “If in fact there’s some evolutionary process happening at that level…we might need to then flip the labels and call evolutionary science the first one and physics the second.” — Mark Vellend (64:07)

Notable Quotes & Moments

• “Physics did not tell you a lot about [why pizza or giraffes or religion emerged]. For that you need evolution.” — Mark Vellend (04:31)
• “We tend to think that genius inventors…had an instantaneous flash of insight and built the iPhone out of thin air. But…all of them have precedents…” — Mark Vellend (14:35)
• “The evolutionary process demands: variation, inheritance, and differential success…when you put all those together and you repeat the cycle…that’s where evolution comes from.” — Mark Vellend (16:35)
• “Fitness is about leaving more offspring. And to know who leaves more offspring, you measure fitness…the circle was broken by…considering fitness as a propensity to leave more offspring.” — Mark Vellend (27:48)
• “AI started under the first science…[and] evolved by embracing the second science with neural networks.” — Gregory McNiff (46:50)
• “My goal is understanding…not saying whether [globalization] is a good thing or a bad thing…some really interesting outcomes…are not intuitive.” — Mark Vellend (58:51)
• “If science really involves these two big pillars…I don’t see any barrier to teaching that…from the outset of their scientific education.” — Mark Vellend (60:37)

Timestamps for Major Segments

• Introduction & Book Motivation: 01:16 – 04:10
• First and Second Sciences: 04:10 – 07:21
• Crossflow Between Disciplines/Darwinian Distraction: 07:21 – 14:10
• Defining Evolution & the Soundboard: 14:10 – 21:13
• Levels, Fitness, Optimality: 23:18 – 36:44
• Feedback, Selection, Movement: 36:44 – 42:04
• AI & Evolution (Case Study): 43:34 – 47:44
• Genetic Engineering & Adaptive Evolution: 47:44 – 51:47
• Critical Transitions: 51:47 – 56:02
• Diversity & Homogenization: 56:02 – 60:06
• Educational System/First vs. Second Science: 60:06 – 63:06
• Cosmic Evolution Speculation: 63:06 – 65:07

For listeners and readers alike, this episode provides an accessible, thought-provoking tour through the evolving landscape of evolutionary theory, challenging traditional disciplinary silos and inspiring a holistic view of how change operates at every scale of existence.