Podcast Summary:

New Books Network – Marta Lorimer, "Europe As Ideological Resource: European Integration and Far Right Legitimation in France and Italy" (Oxford UP, 2024)
Host: Camilla Locatelli
Guest: Marta Lorimer
Date: April 5, 2026

Overview

This episode features an in-depth conversation between host Camilla Locatelli and political scientist Marta Lorimer, discussing Lorimer’s 2024 book, Europe As Ideological Resource: European Integration and Far Right Legitimation in France and Italy. The central theme is how far right parties in France and Italy have not only rejected but also appropriated the idea of "Europe"—distinct from the EU—to strengthen and legitimize their ideological projects, tracing their evolving relationship to European integration across four decades.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Origins of the Book & Research Focus

• Lorimer’s Initial Curiosity ([02:55]):
  • The project’s genesis was Lorimer’s unexpected encounter with a neo-fascist song celebrating European unity, which contradicted her understanding of far right nationalism.
  • This curiosity led to her PhD, expanding into her book: “The book is based on the research that I did in my PhD and expands it in a new direction, trying to think not just about the far right's idea of Europe, but how it has been a part of their success.” ([03:38])

2. Europe as Identity—Beyond Nationalism

• Core Argument ([05:35]):
  • Far right parties frame "Europe" as a civilizational identity, distinct from the EU as a political project.
  • This ideological move allows parties to appear less exclusively nationalist and less threatening:

    "Speaking about a European identity has actually helped them in many way achieve new degrees of legitimacy because it made them look like they were less nationalist, less closed to external ideas, and potentially less dangerous precisely because... they were open to collaborating with others." (Lorimer, [08:36])

  • Examples include Viktor Orban and Marine Le Pen identifying as “defenders of European civilization” while criticizing the EU.

3. Strategic and Reactive Use of Europe

• Dynamic Interaction with the EU ([11:01]):
  • Far right parties’ conceptualization of 'Europe' is both opportunistic and responsive to changes within the EU and geopolitical context.
  • The Italian Social Movement (MSI) and its successor, Alleanza Nazionale, remained committed to some form of European integration, seeing it as compatible with their vision of Europe as an external power.
  • In contrast, France’s National Rally (formerly Front National) became increasingly Eurosceptic when the project of the EU diverged from their preferred vision.
  • Despite shifting political stances, the underlying concepts—European identity, liberty and autonomy, existential threat, and national interest—remained constant.

4. Case Selection: Why Italy and France?

• Practical and Theoretical Considerations ([14:46]):
  • Lorimer’s linguistic skills and the historical longevity of these parties allowed for a long-term study.
  • The parties embody two models of the far right: the Italian MSI/Alleanza Nazionale as the “extreme right” with problematic relations to democracy, and the French National Rally as “radical right” accepting electoral democracy.
  • They serve as models and inspirations for subsequent far right parties across Europe.

5. National Contexts and Divergent Trajectories

• Legacy of Fascism and Public Opinion ([20:58]):
  • Distinct national experiences with fascism and public attitudes toward integration influence party strategies.
  • For Italy, NATO advocacy and support for the EU provided legitimation, leveraging broadly pro-European public opinion.
  • In France, the National Rally capitalized on the tradition of France leading Europe and shifted more decisively toward Euroscepticism as public and elite opinion diverged.

6. Developments Since 2019 and Contemporary Legitimation

• Adapting to New Realities ([24:21]):
  • The book’s timeline ends in 2019, but Lorimer observes that the use of Europe as a legitimizing resource persists, notably with Italy’s current governing party (Brothers of Italy, derived from MSI) employing this strategy.
  • Notably, she says:

    “The far right doesn't have to do a lot of work to legitimize itself, because others are doing its work for it. … The center right working very openly with the… far right groupings to get legislation through. …That cordon sanitaire is now gone. It's all but gone.” ([27:20])

  • Current shifts include mainstream right parties openly collaborating with the far right, normalizing their influence.

7. European Defense: An Old-New Dimension

• Defense and Militarization ([29:12]):
  • The call for European defense cooperation is longstanding among the far right, dating to the 1980s, rooted in a perception of continental decline and external threats (e.g., the Soviet Union).
  • While some cooperation on defense is accepted, far right parties remain wary of deeper integration that would erode national sovereignty—“core state powers.”

8. Research Challenges & Party Responses to Scholarship

• Methodological Choices and Accessibility ([32:18]):
  • Lorimer relied primarily on archival material due to the lack (or unavailability) of many relevant figures from the MSI era.
  • Some contemporary and former party members were open to interviews, seeing academic scrutiny as a means to “signal a level of legitimacy by saying, well, look, of course we'll speak to academics and they will see that we're not actually Nazis...” ([34:47])
  • The general trend is that the far right is increasingly open to scholarly engagement, especially as part of their mainstreaming efforts.

9. Future Research: Expanding the Comparative Lens

• Central/Eastern European Cases of Interest ([36:04]):
  • Lorimer regrets not having studied Hungarian, expressing a strong interest in examining Fidesz and Viktor Orbán, given their significant influence on far right discourse regarding Europe.
  • She encourages more research attention to Central and Eastern European parties, noting that Western European cases often dominate.

Memorable Quotes & Timestamps

• On the legitimizing use of European identity:

  "Speaking about a European identity has actually helped them in many way achieve new degrees of legitimacy..."
  (Marta Lorimer, [08:36])

• On the transformation of the EU-far right relationship:

  “This is something that was unthinkable until a few decades ago. You just would not have collaborated openly with the far right. There was a cordon sanitaire, and ... that cordon sanitaire is now gone. It's all but gone.”
  (Marta Lorimer, [27:20])

• On challenges of using interviews:

  “[Far right figures] ...were actually again, quite interested in talking about themselves...not necessarily something that they always get asked a lot about. ... It's becoming increasingly open to do so. ... This is another channel through which they can...signal a level of legitimacy...”
  (Marta Lorimer, [34:22])

• On future research directions:

  "The one party I really would like to be able to study is Fidesz and particularly Viktor Orban because I think it's just such a...prominent case in Europe today."
  (Marta Lorimer, [36:15])

Timeline of Key Segments

• 00:00–01:20 — Ads and introductions (skipped)
• 01:20–02:55 — Setting up the book and introducing Marta Lorimer
• 02:55–04:40 — Genesis of Lorimer’s research interest and the puzzle of European identity in far right discourse
• 04:40–09:33 — Centrality of European identity for far right legitimation; historical precedents and changes since the 1970s
• 09:33–14:18 — Evolution of both parties and the EU over time; strategic adaptation; continuity in key concepts
• 14:18–17:39 — Rationale for choosing Italy and France; methodological/practical and theoretical reasons
• 19:53–22:52 — Comparison of national legacies; impact of public opinion; national influences on party strategies
• 22:52–28:14 — Developments since 2019; far right’s continued legitimation and collaboration with mainstream right
• 28:14–31:21 — European defense: old themes, new context
• 31:21–35:12 — Research challenges, methodological decisions, and relationship of parties with academic scrutiny
• 36:04–37:20 — Advice and aspirations for future research

Concluding Takeaways

• Far right parties in France and Italy have consistently drawn on the ideology of "Europe"—distinct from simply Euroscepticism and often opposed to the EU—as a resource to legitimize themselves, move toward the mainstream, and reframe their nationalism.
• This practice is responsive both to internal ideological evolution and to changing European and geopolitical contexts. While party positions shift, their conceptual frameworks remain strikingly consistent.
• The growing acceptance of the far right by the political mainstream—collaborations, breakdown of the cordon sanitaire—signals a profound shift in European politics, underscoring the need for scholarly and civic vigilance.
• Advancing comparative research, especially on Central and Eastern European cases like Fidesz, is vital for further understanding the nature and evolution of far right legitimation strategies regarding European integration.