Marty Friedman with Jon Wiederhorn, "Dreaming Japanese" (Permuted Press, 2024)

Summary

---

New Books Network — Marty Friedman with Jon Wiederhorn, "Dreaming Japanese" (Permuted Press, 2024)

Release Date: April 3, 2026
Host: Amy Chavez
Guest: Marty Friedman, with mention of co-writer Jon Wiederhorn

---

Episode Overview

This episode of the New Books Network’s Books on Asia podcast delves into Marty Friedman’s memoir, Dreaming Japanese (Permuted Press, 2024). Friedman, known globally as a multi-platinum recording artist, former Megadeth guitarist, and now a Japanese cultural ambassador, reflects on his unique journey from the US heavy metal scene to his profound immersion and success in Japan’s diverse pop culture landscape. Host Amy Chavez explores with Friedman the creative processes behind both music and memoir, the intricacies and oddities of Japan’s music industry and media, the “hetauma” phenomenon, and how cultural and personal reinvention shapes artistic work.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Remembering Ozzy Osbourne and Heavy Metal Roots

• [02:15] Tribute to Ozzy Osbourne:
  • Friedman discusses Ozzy’s universal impact on the heavy metal and hard rock scene and highlights his favorite period: Black Sabbath’s albums from Master of Reality to Technical Ecstasy.
    • Quote: “There really isn’t a single musician or even fan in the world of heavy metal and hard rock that hasn’t been in some way touched by Ozzy, influenced by Ozzy.” — Marty Friedman ([02:15])
  • Shares personal experiences: meeting Ozzy during Ozzfest while in Megadeth and auditioning for his band, an anecdote detailed in Dreaming Japanese.

2. The Writing and Collaboration Process of Dreaming Japanese

• [04:48] Genesis of the Memoir:
  • Friedman considered writing a memoir for years, gradually recording life moments, then piecing together a manuscript.
• [05:55] Working with Jon Wiederhorn:
  • Saw the value in collaborating with an experienced co-writer/editor to translate lived experience into engaging, accessible prose, especially sensitive to cultural and generational shifts in language:
    • Quote: “Having never really written a book in English before, I knew that it would be beneficial to work with someone who knows book things…There are ways to present your content in a heightened fashion.” — Marty Friedman ([05:55])
  • The partnership included iterations where Wiederhorn rephrased a passage and Friedman made sure it still sounded like him:
    • Quote: “I would send him a paragraph, and he would kind of take the same paragraph and write it his way. And I’m like, that’s cool, but it doesn’t sound like me. So then…we had the formula: trim the fat, but it still sounds like me.” — Marty Friedman ([09:00])

3. Creativity: Parallels Between Music and Writing

• [10:10] Similarities and Differences:
  • Friedman finds the creative process for music and for memoir unexpectedly similar—both rely on finding the engaging “phrasing” that keeps an audience hooked.
    • Quote: “You’re creating phrases…You want to give your listener a colorful way and an interesting way to enjoy what you have to say. In music, I do that naturally, but with words, I have to think.” — Marty Friedman ([10:10])
  • Emphasizes honesty about works that didn’t succeed, likening it to listening to old demo tapes—what once felt groundbreaking often reveals itself as understandably flawed with hindsight.

4. The Crucial Role of Promotion (in Music and Writing)

• [11:52] On Promotion and Visibility:
  • Quote: “No matter how great an album may be, without constant and clever promotion, a song or an album is doomed unless it goes viral on its own.” ([11:52], recounted by Amy then affirmed by Marty)
  • Expresses frustration with how even one’s best work can be overlooked without effective marketing, drawing sharp parallels to the book world:
    • Quote: “You do your greatest work and for whatever reason, it doesn’t get known because the promotion doesn’t get the information that you’ve done this to anyone…If they hate it, if they don’t want to buy it, I’m fine as long as they know it exists.” — Marty Friedman ([12:29])

5. Discovering J Pop and the “Hetauma” Aesthetic

• [15:31] Western Musicians Grapple with J Pop:
  • Friedman recounts how, despite his expertise, he couldn't fully grasp the theory behind J Pop until Rick Beato explained its roots in jazz standards and Showa-era “kayokyoku.”
    • Quote: “I had these massive holes. I couldn’t even figure out what was making these pop songs work…Turns out Rick Beato knew exactly what these holes were and could identify them.” — Marty Friedman ([16:51])
• [21:35] The Concept of Hetauma:
  • J Pop’s appeal is often in its imperfection—the emotional resonance of singers striving for notes they can't quite reach (called "hetauma"):
    • Quote: “Hetauma means it sucks, but it’s good because it sucks. But it doesn’t just suck, it sucks and has magic in it.” — Marty Friedman ([21:35])
  • “Cuteness” (kawaii) is prized over technical polish, and cultural/physiological differences shape vocal style.
• [24:41] Parallels to Other Japanese Aesthetics:
  • This love of imperfection extends beyond music: examples include “wabi-sabi” and even things like crowded teeth, which are perceived as endearing.

6. Inside the Japanese Music and Entertainment Industry

• [27:55] Scandals and Clean Image:
  • The Japanese media can blow up minor incidents into major scandals, with career-destroying potential for public figures. As a foreign celebrity, Friedman found it crucial to maintain a “squeaky clean” public image—and remain mindful as he represented all Americans in the public eye:
    • Quote: “Japan is a one race society…and you as a foreigner, completely represent your entire country. So if you do one act that is questionable, suddenly all Americans get painted with that brush.” — Marty Friedman ([29:10])
• [31:18] The Manager’s Role:
  • Japanese managers are ever-present, a given in showbiz, acting not only as advocates but as safeguarders of talent.
• [32:15] Band Rehearsal Culture:
  • Japanese rehearsal culture is strikingly disciplined—no casual fiddling, everyone prepared, no joking around. Instantly high-level, precise performances.
    • Quote: “From the first note of the song, we sounded like an arena band…never experienced anything like this.” — Marty Friedman ([32:45])
• [33:50] Writing “Kire na Senritsu” / Feeling “Musically Japanese”:
  • Friedman describes the pride in composing a J Pop song (“Kire na Senritsu”) that authentically captured Japanese pop idioms:
    • Quote: “It sounded like a non-American person…had all those little tropes that happen in Japanese music all done just right.” ([34:27])

7. Navigating “Gaijin Tarento”—Foreign Talent on Japanese TV

• [36:57] The “Gaijin Tarento” Experience:
  • Friedman unpacks the peculiar status of foreign TV personalities in Japan: often not highly respected, but offering unique opportunity and financial rewards that allowed him to fully pursue his solo musical projects.
    • Quote: “All you did to get there was be there, be a foreigner and speak from a foreigner’s perspective…Japanese are so interested in foreigners’ opinions on Japan, they’re fascinated by it.” ([37:43])
  • This TV work subsidized his uncompromised creative output, leading to a more well-rounded artistic and personal life.

8. Personal and Artistic Growth Through Life in Japan

• [44:41] Expanding Horizons and Becoming More “Human”:
  • Life in Japan broadened Friedman’s perspective, pushing him to grow beyond the usual “touring and recording” cycle, and providing richer life experiences he could channel into his art.
    • Quote: “I think I’m a much more rounded, more interesting person because of that than I was before. I might have been a good guitar player, but now…I can work in any kind of context because of that experience in Japan.” ([44:41])

9. Recent Work and Reflections

• [46:04] New Album “Drama”:
  • His most recent album, “Drama,” represents the culmination of his musical journey to date: “It’s definitely my best work to date…It’s almost all orchestral.”
• [47:19] Favorite Books and J Pop Recommendations:
  • Shares beloved Japanese books: Aino Eigyo Hoshin (by Tsunku), and collections of Japanese proverbs (“kotowaza”), which gave insight into both language and national psyche.
  • Recommends J Pop songs as entry points:
    • “Heavy Rotation” by AKB48 (“sums up everything about J Pop that I love”)
    • “I’m Proud” by Kahala Tomomi (“poster song for that hetauma concept”)
    • Anything by Ikimono Gakari ([50:10])

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the writing process:

  "Even if your story's really interesting, there are so many tricks of the trade and little things to make it tightened up. And it's like music or any other kind of art—there are ways to present your content in a heightened fashion..." — Marty Friedman ([05:55])

• On creative humility:

  "Everyone who works on something thinks it's the best thing ever when they're done with it...a lot of the things that we do, there was a reason why it didn't take off, because it's not that great. You're not all great all the time, or even ever sometimes." — Marty Friedman ([14:34])

• On understanding J Pop:

  "The Japanese people didn't grow up with rock and roll and blues like we did. They grew up with these pop songs that actually have a lot of chords in them and a lot of interesting chord changes. I'm like, now I start to get it." — Marty Friedman ([18:15])

• On “hetauma” in J Pop vocals:

  "Hetauma means it sucks, but it's good because it sucks...this triggers a very Japanese emotion to support that singer: You can do it, you can do it." — Marty Friedman ([21:35])

• On working as a “gaijin tarento”:

  “…Whether or not it was respected or not, it was doing better than music was for me…all of those things were supplementing my musical career and allowing me to make the exact music that I wanted to make.” ([40:04])

---

Timestamps for Important Segments

• [02:15] — Marty’s reflections on Ozzy Osbourne and the legacy of Black Sabbath
• [04:48] — The making of the memoir: journaling, collaboration, voice
• [10:10] — Artistic process: writing vs. music creation
• [12:29] — The role of promotion in creative industries
• [15:31] — Discovering J Pop, working with Rick Beato, and theory holes
• [21:35] — “Hetauma” and the magic of imperfection in Japanese pop
• [27:55] — Scandals, clean image, and representing foreigners
• [32:15] — The Japanese rehearsal scene: discipline and professionalism
• [34:27] — Composing “Kire na Senritsu” and “becoming musically Japanese”
• [36:57] — Gaijin tarento: insights into Japanese TV
• [44:41] — How Japan expanded Marty’s worldview and artistry
• [46:04] — Marty’s latest album, Drama, and tour reflections
• [47:19] — Marty’s recommendations: books and J Pop songs

---

Recommended Reading and Listening (per Marty Friedman)

• Books:

  • Aino Eigyo Hoshin (“Principles of Love Management”) by Tsunku
  • Japanese kotowaza (proverbs) collections

• J Pop Songs:

  • “Heavy Rotation” by AKB48
  • “I’m Proud” by Kahala Tomomi
  • Anything by Ikimono Gakari

---

Closing

This episode offers not just the backstory of a fascinating memoir, but also a rich primer on the cultural, creative, and emotional translation required for Westerners to deeply engage with Japan’s music and entertainment world. Whether you are a fan of Marty Friedman’s music, curious about “hetauma,” or seeking insight into how artists reinvent themselves abroad, this candid, humorous, and insightful conversation is a must-listen.

---

Transcript

[NBN Announcer]

Hey NBN listeners. We're running our 2026 New Books Network Audience Survey and we'd love just a few minutes of your time. NBN has been bringing you in depth conversations with authors and scholars for over 15 years. We haven't done a comprehensive audience survey since 2022, and a lot has changed since then. It's time to hear from you again. Here's why we're asking. We want to understand who's listening, what subjects and podcasts you love most, and where you'd like to see us grow. Your responses help us tell NBN's story to the publishers, libraries and institutions we partner with when we can show that our listeners are serious readers, lifelong learners, and heavy library users. It opens doors to new partnerships, better resources, and ultimately a stronger NBN for everyone. And one more thing, if you leave your email address at the end of the survey, you'll be entered to win a $100 gift card to bookshop.org, a chance to stock up on books while supporting independent bookstores at the same time. The survey takes just five minutes. Your answers are confidential and your email will never be shared. Head to newbooksnetwork.com to take the survey today. We really appreciate your support. Now go take the survey.

[Marty Friedman]

Welcome to the new books network

[Amy Chavez]

foreign. Welcome to the Books on Asia podcast. I'm your host Amy Chavez and today I'm talking with Marty Friedman. He is a multi platinum recording artist and government appointed ambassador to Japan heritage. He has written three books in Japanese and has had long running columns in the Asahi Weekly, Nike Entertainment, Saizo, Big Comic, Young Guitar Guitar World and Burn, which I love saying in Japanese as ban. He is with us today to talk about his recently released memoir called Dreaming Japanese. So welcome Marty, Nice to meet you. Yeah, nice to have you with us. And ah, this last week Ozzy Osbourne passed away. I thought we might do a small tribute to him and just ask you what Ozzy meant to you as someone who's in heavy metal.

[Marty Friedman]

Well, yeah, I think there really isn't a single musician or even fan in the world of heavy metal and hard rock that hasn't been in some way touched by Ozzy, influenced by Ozzy. And for someone with such a long career, he's got several different eras to, you know, to choose from really. And my favorite era was absolutely the the five albums in the Black Sabbath period of Master of Reality Through Technical Ecstasy. Those were by far my favorite of his career. And every other fan has their own select eras. Some people like this era, some people like that era. And that's one of the wonderful things about people with a long history of making music. So yeah, it's a very, very sad loss. But boy, did he leave us with a lot of cool stuff.

[Amy Chavez]

Yeah, he certainly did. I grew up with Black Sabbath, so definitely my introduction to heavy metal music. Now, have you met Ozzy or do you have any experiences you'd like to share with us?

[Marty Friedman]

I met him when we played on Ozzfest when I was in Megadeth. We did several Ozfest tours and I also auditioned for his band, but I didn't meet him at that time. Well, that story's in the book. But yeah, he's, you know, he's kind of like watching over the whole scene of heavy metal in some weird way, I guess because he was in the first heavy metal band and continued to make music. In seven decades, I might add. I don't think there's anyone in the world of heavy metal who hasn't had some kind of connection to him or his music.

[Amy Chavez]

Yeah, I thought that that story in your book about auditioning for Ozzy Osbourne was absolutely excellent. Yeah, that was really fun. So readers should check that out for sure. And then now getting to your book, which was released on in December 2024 and you hooked up with John Wiederhorn for that. And he is also a very well known rock journalist and he's also co written some other books. Could you tell the audience a little bit about why you decided to write a book and how did you hook up with your co writer and you know, just some things like the nuts and bolts of how you work together. What was the structure of the collaboration? Did you, you know, did you record things and did you share first drafts and, you know, anything like that?

[Marty Friedman]

Yeah, as I was going along with my career, it was just absolutely too busy to ever consider something as time consuming as writing a book. But I knew that as I kept piling up all of these insane experiences, like they were totally normal to me, I knew that someday this would be a book. Like when I'm 90 years old and I have time to relax, I can write this down. But I knew that I would want to relax at that time. So I kept kind of journaling things and I kept looking for ways to kind of make something out of this that I could put into a book later, years later. And it kept growing and growing and it, when it started to become a manuscript, I, you know, I was glad that I had done it little by little because I could have never, ever taken on such a big project all in one go. So over the course of several years of everything that I was doing, I wound up having piecemeal together a pretty decent manuscript of it. And that's what garnered the interest of publishers and people wanting to work on the book. And having never really written a book in English before, I knew that it would be beneficial to work with someone who knows book things. And it's definitely a skill set that just because you write your story and even if your story's really interesting, there are so many tricks of the trade and little things to make it tightened up. And it's like music or any other kind of art, There are ways to present your content in a heightened fashion where the viewer or the listener or reader, whatever, gets more out of it. And I was fascinated by these little tricks and little ways to connect paragraphs and how to cut off fat and how to bring out. Bring out interesting things and tone down things that are only interesting to me. And I found that fascinating. And as I saw when I got John Weiderhorn on board, I saw my story really tightening up and becoming readable and fun to read. And the process was really. It was a learning experience for me. You know, I thought everything was in place, and he kind of made chapters out of it, so it was really super easy to read and kind of made me expand on things that I passed over. But he wanted to know more about, and he knows the American world more than I do. And he says America is, like, in this political correctness thing right now. You can't say this. You can't say that you're going to polarize people. I'm like, no, no, no. It's not a big deal, dude. Trust me. So I'm kind of glad I did because I've been so far out of the American loop for, like, the last 25 years, and Japan is a completely different world, as you can see in the book. And so I had to make sure that it was written to people who are living now all over the world and getting my points across. And not. Not that I'm afraid of ruffling anyone's feathers, but just not unnecessarily losing any fans without any benefit. So all that took was very creative writing, getting the exact points across and just trying to take his advice on certain. Certain things that Americans, be it right or wrong, respond in a unfashionable way. So that was, you know, it's like writing to current English standards. So that was. That's. That's kind of the thing that I got from John, but the. The basic trajectory of the book, the story of the book, that was pretty much all done before I reached out to anyone.

[Amy Chavez]

Oh, that's wonderful. Yeah. It sounds like he was not just a good co writer, but he was a very good editor, because that's really. Also. The job of an editor is to really sharpen those prose and make sure there's, you know, nothing in there that really shouldn't be, and maybe, you know, getting some more. A little bit more. More capital.

[Marty Friedman]

He couldn't pass on all that. He. He really did. And I'm glad that I was open to it, because when. When it started, you know, I would send him a paragraph, and he would kind of take the same paragraph and write it his way. And I'm like, that's cool, but it doesn't sound like me. So then I had to take that back and understanding his concepts and just put it into words that I would say. And boom, we had the formula. So we got is, you know, trim, fat, trimming done, but which still sounds like me. So it was just kind of like that formula for, like, 400 pages. Really?

[Amy Chavez]

Yeah. It's quite a lengthy book, and you cover so much territory in it. For me, one of the most interesting parts was that the Japanese music industry and how completely different it is. Not that I would expect it to be the same, because nothing in Japan is the same as anything else. But I was also really surprised to hear how the creative process for making music seems remarkably similar to that of writing and publishing books. And you've talked about some of the creative process. Were there any other similarities and differences you found while writing the book?

[Marty Friedman]

Well, I realized that I'm a much better musician than a book writer, that's for sure, because you're absolutely right. You're doing the same thing. You're creating. I'm thinking in Japanese right now. You're creating phrases. You're. You have a vocabulary, and you want to give your listener a colorful way and an interesting way to enjoy what you have to say. And in music, I do that naturally, but with words, I have to think. And is this the best way to say this? Get this point across? And, you know, I'm not a very big book person. I don't read a lot of the current books, and I don't read a lot of the English books. Luckily, I am a very. I don't want to say the word intelligent, but I understand when something's boring and when something's not boring. So I kind of had to keep. Try to put my musical abilities into words and just say, when I read back this. This paragraph, am I interested or not? Exactly the same way as, like, if I'm playing a solo or a melody. Is this the best way to phrase this so that people enjoy it? So I had to do that with books, and it was very new, but luckily I had the musical experience to do it. But I could totally see how, like, a great book writer would just keep people enthralled by the way they write. So it was a huge process. And at the end of the day, I said, you know, the best way to do this is just keep it as conversational as possible and not try to be all intelligent on anybody. Make it fun to read, easy to read, but get the points deeply across and not try to, like, act all cool.

[Amy Chavez]

Yeah, it's. It's kind of a great read. It keeps the paces kept up. And one of the things that you said that I just thought, wow, that's book publishing. Right there is if it's okay for me to quote you. You said, no matter how great an album may be, without constant and clever promotion, a song or an album is doomed unless it goes viral on its own. And this was in relation to be the beginning the Image album. And I just thought he. Yeah, it's all about promotion and it's really hard to do on your own. In other words, you've got to have.

[Marty Friedman]

You're so right. That's such a great point. It's all a promotion. But then it's also luck because you can promote something to the end of the world and people still may not relate to it, but at least I want to know that people know it exists. If they hate it, if they don't want to buy it, I'm fine as long as they know it exists. But what's frustrating, probably to a lot of authors, and definitely for me as an artist, is you do your greatest work and for whatever reason, it doesn't get known because the promotion doesn't get the information that you've done this to anyone or enough people. And it's like, I know that if people knew about this, I. I wouldn't care if they liked it or not. I just want them to know it exists. They can think it sucks, they can hate it, but if they know about it, I've done my job, but I just feel like it's a huge waste and a disservice to the work that I've done. You do this thing and the people who are in charge of making it known, don't do their jobs or whatever circumstance, nobody knows about it, and you're like, stuck with this thing. I did this thing. No one knows about it. That's frustrating. So I'm sure authors relate to that.

[Amy Chavez]

Absolutely. Absolutely. And another thing that I could relate to also was, of course, in. In this case, it won't apply to you because you had such a great co writer as well. Right. But when you were talking about all those demo tapes you did when you were younger and, you know, you work so hard with the songs and get every. Everything right and getting the demo tape out there and. And then years later, after you had gained so much experience, you looked back on those tapes and you're like, oh, those weren't very good. And I think a lot of authors with our first books, we have that same feeling. We put so much into those books and we wondered why didn't, you know, these go viral or why didn't anyone like it? And then you look back later and you're like, oh, I can see it. There are these humbling moments. Yeah.

[Marty Friedman]

And I think being honest about that is. It's fun because otherwise you come off as being bitter. And I think everyone who works on something thinks it's the best thing ever when they're done with it, because you've got this feeling you've done your best.

[Amy Chavez]

That's right.

[Marty Friedman]

You're satisfied with it enough to put it out, you think it's great. And then when you don't get your rewards, it's natural to feel bad about it. But I think looking back on it, a lot of the things that we do, there was a reason why it didn't take off, because it's not that great. You're not all great all the time or even ever sometimes. So I think there's a lot of that realization in my book, because I'm totally straight about, look, this sucked. I thought it was great, or even I knew it sucked, but I put it out there anyway because sometimes stuff that sucks becomes popular. We do all those things. And I think it's funny in retrospect. Only in retrospect, because at the time, it's not funny at all.

[Amy Chavez]

That was another thing I loved about. About what you were saying is that, yeah, it's easy to look back and laugh at this now, but at the time, I totally get that it's serious, you know? Yeah. So here we are, like 25 years later, and you're living in Japan, and when you were still in the States, you started Listening to J Pop, the Bees, Aikawa, Nanase, Komi, Hirose, Tampopo, X Japan and many others, I'm sure. And you said in your book that you had always liked J Pop, but you didn't really understand it in depth until Rick Beato sat you down and went through the basics. And you even used a line at one point that you talk about a song being laden with Japanese. No, it was Japanese motif laden. Guitar acrobatics. And that just begs the question, what were they like? Help us understand what you went through at that moment when you sat down with Beato and went through this. Because I think a lot of Westerners don't really get J Pop. It doesn't mean they don't like it. It's just so different from what they're used to. And I was hoping you could share some of those insights that Bias Yato shared with you to help readers kind of have this aha moment and go, yeah, that's.

[Marty Friedman]

Well, you're absolutely right. I think what happens is a lot of people outside of Japan don't get it because it's too overwhelming to really soak in in one sitting. It's like, oh my God, what did I just hear? That's crazy. I. I can't make a decision about it. But if you let it sink in, it's like a fungus. It will grow on you and you just can't get rid of it. The thing about what Rick Beato did was I started falling in love with J Pop music and I didn't really know much about the mechanics of it. And I'm. That's really weird because at that point I was a multi platinum artist. I had been making albums for decades, selling boatloads of albums, giving seminars and music academies and I was supposedly this expert on music and guitar. But I had these massive holes. I couldn't even figure out what was making these pop songs work. I had massive holes in my skill set and in my knowledge. And it turns out that the Rick Beato knew exactly what these holes were and could identify them. When I started playing this J Pop that I was listening to, in particular, it was the Hirose Komi stuff. Because to sum it up for listeners who are not necessarily musos, I can say it's based on very basic jazz concepts and like the type of, if you remember the music on the AM radio in the 70s, a lot of that stuff was based on cliches from very basic standards like, you know, the Plank Sinatra days and Gershwin and all of those kind of motifs. Those kind of chord changes, those kind of leading tones, and all of those musical things that happened there but never ever showed up in Black Sabbath and rock and roll and the stuff that I grew up with. So I went off on my business and developed quite an unbelievable amount of abilities. But there was huge holes in it because I didn't know any of these standards. And I didn't know any of the theory behind that stuff. And Rick did. So when he heard this J Pop stuff, especially the Komihirose stuff, he's like, well, this chord is this. And these two chords go together because of this. And then he started showing me these things and voila. I could play these songs that I was listening to. And now I get it. The Japanese people didn't grow up with rock and roll and blues like we did. They grew up with, like, these pop songs that actually have a lot of chords in them and a lot of interesting chord changes. And I'm like, now I start to get it. And thank God for that. Because since then, I played in every possible J Pop situation. And that knowledge has come up every single time. So until I met Mirick, I was zero. I had none of that. I was. It might have been the same as learning saxophone. I was lost. So that. That was a big, big eye opener.

[Amy Chavez]

So I was reading up on all this and it was saying that J Pop actually has its roots in the Showa era pop songs. I think that's what you're talking to. I think it's called Kaio Kyoku. And I. When I came to Japan, I didn't listen to J Pop. I more gravitated towards a. And, you know, some of the bands like Southern All Stars, something with. Something I was a little more familiar with. It's more kind of rock and roll, you know, type. But I absolutely loved Anka. And of course, everyone would laugh because, you know, at my age, I think it was 30, 30 when I came to Japan, that I'm not supposed to like Anka. That's old people's music, right? But everywhere we went, the Carpenters were played constantly. The Partridge Family, like you said in your book. And the Osmonds, you know, made deep impressions on the Japanese. I Left My Heart in San Francisco was the, you know, karaoke theme song of the decade. And then I kind of had a problem with some of the J Pop singers. I felt like they were singing notes they couldn't quite make. But then that all changed, really, in the last. Well, I don't know how long it's been, but now you get these really rich voices and they can still sing very high voices, which is, you know, part of the J Pop appeal. But they, they do it really well. I feel like J Pop also has come a long way. I don't know. I don't know enough about it, I suppose.

[Marty Friedman]

Brought up an extremely interesting concept that I want people to grasp onto. Are you from America originally?

[Amy Chavez]

I am. And. And we're the same age, only by two months apart, so we probably grew up similar.

[Marty Friedman]

When you mentioned that they were going for notes that they couldn't quite hit it. I talk about this to some point in the book, but I've done longer dissertations on this concept and this is huge for Japanese music. And it's a huge wall to people from especially America why they can't get into J Pop for that specific reason. Because in America we're used to all these great singers, Celine Dion, Whitney Houston, all these Adele, these perfect great singers with massive voices. But in Japan there's this concept called hetauma. And hetauma means it sucks, but it's good because it sucks. But it doesn't just suck, it sucks and has magic in it. So when you're saying that they trying for notes that they can't hit, this triggers a very Japanese emotion to support that singer. You can do it, you can do it. You're getting close. I just want you to hit that note. And that feels very good for the fan, the supporter. So it's particularly an idol music where the supporters are mostly guys and the singers are mostly cute girls who can barely sing. But these girls have magic in their voices that their producers know very well and bring out. And there, therefore you have singers with this heta Umar. It sucks, but it's got magic. And you pair that up with the right song and you've got this beautiful, beautiful thing that I just fell in love with about Japanese music. And Americans look at me as like, what's good about this? It's just the singer sucks and. But you have to rise above that. And the more you live in Japan and the more you work with these, you start to identify the difference between hetauma sucking with the magic and just plain sucking. Like 99% of everybody just sucks. But in that 1% there's like a girl usually, sometimes guys too, they have this voice. They can't really hit the notes, but there's something about that voice that you want to support that person. And the smart, savvy producers over here in Japan, like for example, Tsunku or Odatetsuro or Shady or any people like this or Komuro Tetsuya is the probably the biggest purveyor of this. They bring out that little weirdness in the voice and it just blossoms into something beautiful. And luckily I related to that, understood that, and that set me off on my course in Japan. Of course, I'm a maniac. So there's that.

[Amy Chavez]

That makes so much sense. I'm so glad you explained that to me because it's a very Japanese concept and you can see it in lots of things other than music as well. So, I mean, some people say it's, you know, a little bit like Kanbaru to do your best. Other people say it's kind of like rooting for the underdog, but it's actually to a different level completely. And so. Thank you.

[Marty Friedman]

That's also, as you know, Japan like honors cuteness over everything else. So there's nothing cute about Adele hitting her notes perfectly. It's not cute. It's just not. It's just not. But there's something very, very cute about a girl trying to hit the note and sometimes getting it, sometimes not, and just wishing to get it. That's extremely cute. So, like, there is that. So in a culture where cuteness trumps strong, independent, great singers, you can kind of see where J Pop gets its vocal concepts. Of course, like you said, there's a lot of great singers now who sing a lot better. Better meaning, like they hit the notes and all that stuff. But you also have to remember there's a very physical difference between Japanese people and American. Physiologically, their voices are different. They don't have that guttural sound. The thickness in the voice that American singers have, and especially in the black singers, like the gospel singers, that thick, throaty sound, it's not going to come out of a Japanese person because they just don't have it. So even if they have the chops, they sing perfectly in tune, they have the training. It's just not physiologically there. So it all boils down to taste. If you like that kind of thin, cutesy type of singing, Japan is for you. But if you prefer Aretha Franklin or those type of ultra talented singers, Japan's music is not going to really get you too excited.

[Amy Chavez]

So another maybe good parallel to this concept of, you know, it's so cute, you know, when someone can't make a note because you want to barrack behind them. And so another thing in the entertainment world is not having perfect teeth. So when you get these girls that have like a Lot of teeth crowded into their mouths and you know, we think it kind of looks funny, but no, that is cute and it's the same thing. And the longer I've been in Japan, the more I've been able to understand this. And now whenever I see a girl with all those teeth going every which way, I just think, oh, isn't she cute? So it, it takes a little bit of a, a different way of looking at things, but it does grow on you. Like you said.

[Marty Friedman]

How long have you lived in Japan?

[Amy Chavez]

30 years.

[Marty Friedman]

You've got me beat even. Yeah.

[Amy Chavez]

Oh, well, there's no, no beat or anything. I mean, we all have different experiences

[Marty Friedman]

that you're picking up. Are not the same points that people in America bring up when I'm talking about Japan. So 30 years, that's. Yeah, it's so true. I mean, I think in Japan imperfection is the wabi sabi sabi. Yeah, it's like, it's, it's cute. And you know, I think there's a lot of.

[Amy Chavez]

It's refreshing.

[Marty Friedman]

There's a lot of pressure in America and Korea and a lot of countries. There's a lot of pressure to be to some kind of standard. And I think it's probably harder for girls than it is for guys. But in Japan maybe it's a little bit different. I think cuteness and imperfection is a little bit more accepted here than in the other countries. Yes.

[Amy Chavez]

Well, you talk about the Japanese music industry a lot. I wanted to talk a little bit more about that too. And for, I think for anyone reading your book, they're, you know, going to think this is quite interesting about the differences. But also it's, it can be harsh in other ways. The Japanese entertainment industry is full of scandals, right? And these aren't necessarily scandals at all, but the media, the media takes hold of them and makes them into big things. And then the, it really can take down the career of these entertainers quite easily, actually. And so we had the case of Johnny's and there's the case of Becky, who is actually a foreigner and she was, you know, dating a married entertainer. And then I was just wondering because even you noted in your book that, you know, it was really hard for you to even date in public because you don't really want to be out there and subject to any kind of thing that the media or other people might say. So how did you manage to keep the, quote, squeaky clean reputation enough to make you be able to become a cultural ambassador?

[Marty Friedman]

Well, yeah, I mean, I had to start Believing what my manager was telling me because little things could be a scandal. I mean, there was a lot of things I left out of the book because I'm still in the business. Japan is a very small country and tours are short because there's not as many cities as there are in America. So there's a lot of time to ruin your reputation with the stuff do between touring. And so I just tried to keep all of that stuff as private as I possibly could, especially as a foreigner. And I'm sure you know this, that Japan is a one race society. And you as a foreigner, completely represent your entire country. So if you do one act that is questionable, suddenly all Americans get painted with that brush. And I totally get that. I understand it. So I try to live by that standards and, you know, make people think, you know, American, American people are cool. Being in the public eye limits the amount of kind of carousing and fun stuff that you can do outside. And especially in my case, NHK has been a huge supporter of me. And nhk, for people who don't know, is kind of like the Public Broadcasting System of Japan. It's like a standard of squeaky clean image. And they've done a lot of great things for me. So if I were to do one small thing, if I'm in the wrong nightclub, for example, and that gets out, I just burned a huge bridge. That's been a great part of my career. So I basically just had to stay on the straight and narrow, which is not too hard for me because I'm basically no problem kind of guy. But it was always in the back

[Amy Chavez]

of my mind, okay, now part of this, which might be related, is you were talking about how in Japan the manager or assistant is always on location with his client, whether it's a TV show, a concert or industry event. And he was kind of there also to make sure that everything ran smoothly. Is that correct?

[Marty Friedman]

My manager, he's texting me now as we're talking. I mean, it's really. I only wish that I had this kind of attention before I came to Japan from American managers because, you know, they collect their 10% and they're gone. It's kind of a different relationship. They're always there. And I don't want to say because I'm a foreigner, it's even more the case because I've seen the same exact thing for all the Japanese people I work with. It's kind of just a fixture, you know, it's like a tarimae. I don't know how to Say that in English. It's kind of a given. It's kind of a given that the manager's there and kind of makes my life easier because I don't have to know what to say yes or no to and just go for it.

[Amy Chavez]

Yeah. And another thing about the J Pop scene, which I thought was interesting. You talk about your first rehearsal and how when you went in for your first rehearsal, I. Sorry, I forget who this was with, ma'.

[Marty Friedman]

Am.

[Amy Chavez]

And how no one fiddled with the knobs or noodled on their instruments. No one even warmed up. And there was absolutely no ball busting or joking around. They went straight into the set list for the tour. Song one, Start. Bam. From the first note of the song, we sounded like an arena band. And even though we had only met for the first time just days before, I have never experienced anything like this. And everyone was prepared. Atenevan played great. Wow. What. What a paragraph.

[Marty Friedman]

Yeah. I mean, that's exactly how I felt. You can imagine how excited I was in that situation. I. All of this time, I wanted to be in a J Pop band or situation more than anything. Finally got there. I had no idea what to expect. Is it going to suck? Is it. Is it going to be good? And so when I got there was the complete antithesis of everything I grew up with in American bands. You know, you jerk around, you make jokes and warm up, some dude's noodling, the drummers practicing, Somebody's like, talking to some girls or something. None of that. We walked into the room, put our instruments on. Okay, Song one. Bam. And I don't know these people. And it sounds so good. I'm like, oh, my. Now I get it. Now I get it. Ah, big aha moment. And pretty much every Japanese band situation I've been in, it's been like that. And you just get used to it. I really found that wonderful, wonderful thing to find.

[Amy Chavez]

Yeah. Things are so different again, you know? And then you were asked to write a theme song, right, for the singer Kotoko, and that ended up being Kirei Nasenditsu, Right? Kirei Nasenditsu, the beautiful melody. And you said it sounded to you like a gorgeous Disney movie theme. And can you talk a little bit about that and how. Because you said you were so surprised that even as an American, you could actually produce something like that, create that. And so can you give us a little insight on that part that made it so special and unique?

[Marty Friedman]

I'm glad you brought that up. And when I was writing about that I really hated to like kind of toot my own horn about it. Talking about how good this song is, I wrote, not that the song is even that good, but I just wanted to get the point across that even though, like I had learned how to what some of the nuts and bolts of the J pop music was from Rick and I kind of worked with some Japanese musicians at that point, I had very little experience in the Japanese music world and. And I was realizing just how different it was from what I'd grown up with. And you can't just suddenly understand it and create it and perform it. You just can. It's like a lifetime. And so in a relatively short amount of time, I wrote this song, Kire na Sen Ritsu and it just sounded like another person. It sounded like a non American person. It sounded like a Japanese person. It had all of those little tropes that happen in Japanese music all done just right. And I'm like, I think I'm getting this. I think it's sticking to me a lot faster than I thought it would. And I. I feel like I'm not that I'm part Japanese, but I feel like I can now I understand that I can contribute to this music scene over here and not like just as a token American. I feel like I can do exactly what I wanted to do, make Japanese music in the world of Japan and not just as, you know, a rock guitarist who is in a famous band. And when you hear the song Kirena Senitsu, you're. You're going to listen to it and you say, I can't believe this is the dude in Megadeth wrote this piece of music. It's just completely different. And I felt very proud of myself. So it was really hard to kind of humble down the way I wrote it, but that's really how I felt.

[Amy Chavez]

This episode is brought to you by Nespresso Introducing Virtuo up, the latest in a long line of innovation from Nespresso. Its innovation you can touch, sense and taste in every single cup. With a three second start, easy open lever and dedicated brew over ice button, it's even easier to enjoy your coffee your way. Sip for yourself. Shop Vertuo up [e-mail] One of the joys of reading the book was that I could go to YouTube and look up a lot of these songs and listen to them and then have a better idea of exactly what you're talking about. So yeah, that was really nice. You gotta love modern talk.

[Marty Friedman]

Yeah.

[Amy Chavez]

So when you're talking about Token gaijin, right? Or the token foreign or token American. Okay, now I wanted to talk about the gaijin talento, the foreign talent on Japanese tv. You've done a lot of Japanese tv and I know that, you know, you've taken the, the idea of talento a bit higher because obviously you're, you know, a very well known guitarist, you're very good at what you do, and you had some music programs as well. I think for those of us living in Japan, and it's certainly not everyone, but a lot of Westerners have a hard time reconciling themselves to Japanese tv. And I just feel like you can help us understand that. Just like you helped us understand J Pop a few minutes ago.

[Marty Friedman]

Yeah, it's a great question. And it's so deep. I'll try to shorten it. Japanese tv, especially from the eyes of American viewers, is just absolutely over the top insane. But I think it's genius. So many times, but with genius, sometimes things don't work and look absolutely stupid and completely just dumb. But in, in my experience from watching tv, I just think it's absolutely genius. And so much creativity, so much hard work, so much, to use a cliche, thinking outside of the box and just trying to do something that hasn't been done before. Shooting spaghetti out of water guns at, you know, just crazy stuff that would never happen in boring America because the standard of entertainment is so incredibly high here in Japan. You have to shoot yourself out of a cannon to get someone's attention on tv. Especially now with the Internet. Yeah, Japanese TV doesn't get a lot of respect in some circles, and I believe it deserves a lot of respect. But that's just an opinion. And then, then there's the concept of the gaijin talento. And it's not an extremely respected profession. But what it is for people who don't know what it is, it's like a foreigner living in Japan who speaks Japanese to some extent, usually good, usually very good. And they just do a lot of TV shows and are asked opinions about stuff and sometimes take part in little skits and little things. And they don't really have so much of an occupation other than doing a bunch of different TV shows. And I did a lot of Japanese TV as written in the book, and 90% of the time I felt really, really good about it. But sometimes, you know, in that industry, which is kind of separate from the music industry, the gaijin talent, people don't really get as much respect as the Japanese talent. And you just have to live with that, you just have to live with it. It's like all you did to get there was be there, be a foreigner and speak from a foreigner's perspective. Because Japanese, as you know, Japanese, are so interested in foreigners opinions on Japan, they're fascinated by it, they want to know it. I think that's a great trait, by the way. So if you're a foreigner and you live in Japan and you speak good Japanese, they're going to want to know your opinions on everything from food to culture to fashion to politics to language. They want to know your opinion. Why? I don't know, but. But they do. So anyway, so I got a lot of work just because I was on tv. You do one thing and someone sees it, they want you to do another thing. And work started piling up to a really amazing point. And whether or not it was respected or not, it was doing better than music was for me. I was doing great things in music I loved, but the real money was in TV and the real, real money was in doing commercials. So all of those things were supplementing my musical career and allowing me to make the exact music that I wanted to make and release it, which is a dream because most musicians, they compromise. They're in a band that they only sort of like, or their own music can't get published because no one cares and there's no money. But here I was supplementing my own musical career. So I can say with all sincerity that every album I put out artistically, that's what I wanted to do. So that's thanks to doing all this Japanese tv, even though it kind of eclipsed my musical career in Japan, I don't regret it at all.

[Amy Chavez]

Sure. And as you were talking about being able to write what you wanted to write or play what you wanted to play, also, it also reminded me of books because you, you go on also in your book about how the producers, they want hits, you know, they keep saying, no, that's not a hit, we want hits. And it's the same thing with books. And it's getting harder and harder even because all of the, the big publishers, they all want something that's going to

[Marty Friedman]

sell and you blame them. I can't.

[Amy Chavez]

Something commercial and you can't. Right. But as a writer, you want to write, you know, like maybe about Japan and in some of the deeper parts of Japan that actually, you know, not the average person is interested in. So I see some parallels there as well. And. But for you, it, it turned out really well, I think that you had Again, you were smart enough to see that there's a balance here where you didn't necessarily have to compromise your music, but you found something else to supplement that. And now you have a great solo career, don't you?

[Marty Friedman]

Yeah, I do. I've been very fortunate with that as well. Touring the world bigger than ever on my solo career. I mean it's not the type of thing where I have a huge hit song to play and just play huge venues everywhere, but I'm playing bigger venues than ever and it's always no problem to tour anywhere in the world. So I can't complain. And a lot of that is facilitated by the fact that I'd done a lot of Japanese tv allowing me to make music that I love making. And I'm proud enough to go and tour with it because if I made some albums that I had to compromise a bunch on, I'm not going to want to play that stuff 10 years later, five years later. So, you know, I can look back at any part of my career and say, yeah, I love this. Playing this all, you know, it's all thanks to the stuff that I've done in Japan and also doing all of the TV and media in Japan has kind of rounded me out as a more, I don't want to say interesting person, but I have more of a life experience to draw from than just touring and recording. Touring and recording. I have worked with people that I would never come across in music and done so many experiences that have made me able to have more of a wide expression musically. Because now I'm this kind of well rounded person other than just a musician. Before I came to Japan, for the previous 10, 15 years, every single year I was either on the road, touring or in the studio recording. So that limits kind of your life experience, things that you can describing your music. What are you going to talk about? You know, I'm tired from being on tour, my girlfriend left me because I was gone all the time or I'm having all of these chicks. It's all the same thing when you're touring and recording. But living in the world of Japan and doing non musical things made me have to think a lot more and become an actual human being with other experiences. And I, I think I'm a much more rounded, more interesting person because of that than I was before. I might have been a good guitar player, but now, you know, I can work in any kind of context because of that experience of Japan.

[Amy Chavez]

That's what I love about Japan. It just makes you a more well Rounded person anyway, because even to live here, you have to bend your mind in ways that you never thought of before. And I loved your example also of going into Tower Records and how when you were in Japan touring that the bands would sometimes do events at Tower Records and they would allow you guys to go through and take whatever CDs you wanted at the end. And so they would all go in with the list of CDs and go through and just, wow, take this one, this one. And then you're like, wait a minute. Yeah, that's just a bit much. And so you. And, you know, you're like, we don't need to do that. You know, just take out one or two that you really, you know, admire, like, and call it a day. And those are the things that Japan teaches you, is to be more. A little more subtle, a little, you know, more modest.

[Marty Friedman]

Don't mean being an overbearing asshole, Right? Be an asshole. Just kind of COVID it up.

[Amy Chavez]

Right? And, you know, another thing. Well, you just came back from tour in South America and, you know, it really would have been nice to do this interview a lot. Much closer to the release of your book. But you've been so busy and I understand that. Could you just give us a few lines on what your solo album is that you were touring for, and how did it go?

[Marty Friedman]

Well, at the end of the book, I was working on the album called Drama, which is my most recent album. And at the very end of the book, I said something like, I still haven't accomplished my life's work yet in music, and I'm working on an album called Drama right now that just might be my life's work. And I felt like that when I released it. I still feel like it now. It's definitely my best work to date. I hope to top it sometime. But if there is anything to represent my musicality in a great way, it'd be this album, Drama. And I've been touring the world on that since middle of last year and still touring on it and have a lot more shows coming up. But yeah, it's an album. It's a very romantic album. It's not a whole lot of heavy metal on it, it's almost all orchestral. But it's, you know, it's where I am now musically, and I'm very, very pleased with it. And I think fans of my music will notice a leap from my previous work. A really strong, solid leap. And album's good. I really like it.

[Amy Chavez]

Okay, great. I can't wait to listen to it. And now onto our last question is what are your three favorite books on Japan?

[Marty Friedman]

I noticed this in your email when you sent it to me, and I kind of freaked out because I've read a few books in Japanese, but I haven't really read a whole lot of books on Japan in English. So I can talk about the Japanese books that I've read. Oh, it's really fine. One book is called Aino Eigyo Hoshin, which I guess in translated would be the Principles of Love Management, roughly translated into that written by Tsunku, who's one of my favorite producers here. And when I saw he had written a book, I'm like, wow, I want to learn all these great producer tips from him. And then I saw the title. I'm like, that doesn't sound like it's very musical. But I bought it anyway and I read it. And it was just a wonderful book that had nothing to do with music. It was basically him giving advice to young guys, mostly guys in the, I guess, the age of adolescence, high school and junior high. And that's kind of the age where, especially in Japan, guys become very shy and they don't have confidence in social situations. And here's a guy who's a producer of music for young people. And so it was wonderful to hear his advice to get people to come out of their shells and have confidence. And I just thought it was really cool of him to write a book like that as opposed to technical musical tricks and things like that. So I really enjoyed that book a lot. And what else? I read a couple books on Kotowaza. I don't know how what that is in English. Idioms, maybe?

[Amy Chavez]

Yeah, idioms are proverbs.

[Marty Friedman]

And as you know, living in Japan, the language is like a labyrinth of things that never ends. But I found that learning these idioms and proverbs give you kind of like a peek into Japanese mindset. And it also gives you the peek into, like, common commonalities into us growing up as Americans, because a lot of them are the same. A great one I always loved is chase two rabbits and catch neither. Things like that. But in America, they say you can't ride two horses with one ass. So it's the same. They're saying the same things. And I found it fascinating that these completely different cultures sometimes have the same ideals. And so I really like proverbs for that, like kotawaza. And it's kind of a good conversation point in Japanese when you're having a topic, especially as a foreigner, if you bust out some kotawazas. They're like off to the races, you know, and they like that.

[Amy Chavez]

How about some of your favorite Japanese J Pop songs?

[Marty Friedman]

Well, I can give you my favorite ones. AKB48 has a song called Heavy Rotation which just sums up. I think I even wrote about this in the book. It sums up everything about J Pop that I love in three and a half minutes. And probably my favorite thing that I've done in Japan was playing at Budokan with AKB48 playing that song. I couldn't believe it. Yeah, so there's that and a couple other great ones. If you go back to the early days of J Pop, a song called I'm Proud by Kahala Tomomi. And this is like the poster song for that heta uma concept. I was telling you where you were saying just not reaching the notes. That's. That's where it all started. That's where you have someone who can barely reach the notes. But the song sounds like it's an Olympic anthem. It's just really a crazy thing that could only happen in Japan and I couldn't get enough of it. And pretty much anything by Ikimono Gakari is going to be something I would recommend. So I would go to those three places to start your J Pop journey.

[Amy Chavez]

Wonderful. That is. That's really nice to have those suggestions. Well, thank you so much for joining us today. It's been really interesting conversation.

[Marty Friedman]

Thank you, Amy. It's been easy to talk to. Very, very easy.

[Amy Chavez]

Good, good. Thank you.

[Marty Friedman]

Quick interruption. Here's a helpful tip. Thinking about updating your home. TikTok is full of simple DIY and decor ideas. Small changes, big results, all in quick, easy videos. Download TikTok now.