Podcast Summary: New Books Network – “Remembering Jefferson: Who He Was, Who We Are” with Mary E. Stuckey

Host: Lily Gorn
Guest: Mary E. Stuckey
Book: Remembering Jefferson: Who He Was, Who We Are (UP of Kansas, 2025)
Release Date: January 8, 2026

Overview

This episode explores Mary E. Stuckey’s new book, which investigates the figure of Thomas Jefferson not as a biographical subject, but as a multifaceted and contested symbol in American national identity. The discussion delves into how Jefferson’s legacy is constructed, contested, and reinterpreted across presidential rhetoric, public memorials, popular culture, and even children’s literature. Stuckey and host Lily Gorn analyze the complexities and contradictions inherent in how Americans remember and represent Jefferson, ultimately probing what these memories tell us about American civic identity.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Jefferson? (03:24)

• Enduring Symbol: Jefferson is more omnipresent than other founders (e.g., Washington), appearing in numerous contexts, from separatist states to national unity symbols.
  • Mary Stuckey: “He keeps meaning so many things to so many people. I found that indicative of all of the complexities of national identity.” (04:21)
• Paradox Magnet: Stuckey is attracted to Jefferson because of his contradictions, unlike the more straightforward image of Washington.

2. The Book’s Structure and Approach (05:39)

• Not a Biography: Focuses on “the biography of Jefferson in the American imagination,” rather than the man himself.
• Methodology: Stuckey started by analyzing presidential rhetoric, then expanded to memorials, monuments, popular culture, and children’s literature.

3. Jefferson in Presidential Rhetoric (11:20)

• Generic Invocations: Most references to Jefferson are vague, used to bestow legitimacy on policies rather than to engage with his actual ideas.
  • Mary Stuckey: “They use Jefferson as a way to put their own politics beyond question rather than actually drawing any logical line to something that is clearly identifiable as Jeffersonian.” (12:50)
• Complications Post-Hemings: The public acknowledgment of Jefferson’s relationship with Sally Hemings in the 1990s made references to him more fraught for presidents of both parties.

4. Myths of the Founders (13:00)

• False Consensus: Founders are often presented as unified, masking deep disagreements (e.g., Hamilton-Jefferson disputes).
  • Mary Stuckey: “All of that gets elided when presidents start talking about Jefferson…” (13:58)

5. Memorials and Monuments (15:10, 18:23)

• Choices in Memory: Every memorial involves a choice about what version of Jefferson to commemorate.
  • Mary Stuckey: “It is literally an attempt to put your politics in stone... and of course, that fails, because nothing is unalterable.” (15:18)
• Context Matters: Who Jefferson is depicted next to (e.g., Hamilton, 600 bricks representing enslaved people) changes meaning.
• Specific Sites:
  • Independence National Historical Park, Philadelphia: Focuses on Jefferson as Declaration author, but acknowledges it was a group effort.
  • Mount Rushmore: Jefferson as emblem of westward expansion and imperialism.
  • Jefferson Memorial: Crafted by FDR to emphasize Jefferson as the “apostle of democracy.”

6. Multiplicity of Meanings (22:15)

• Audiences Shape Memory: Experience at sites such as Mount Rushmore varies widely depending on visitors’ perspectives.
  • Mary Stuckey: “The Jefferson that they bring with them may also be the lens through which they view those sites.” (23:13)

7. Jefferson in Popular Culture (25:12)

• Film & Television: Many popular portrayals are poor (“the bad Jefferson movies”), especially those about his relationship with Sally Hemings.
• Romanticizing Slavery: Some works present Jefferson and Hemings as “star-crossed lovers,” flattening the power imbalance and allowing audiences to sidestep uncomfortable truths.
  • Mary Stuckey: “The idea that his relationship with Hemings was complicated allows us to take the position that, well, yeah, this is all complicated. It’s hard to fix. Nobody’s really responsible…” (27:17)

8. Children’s Literature (30:00)

• Vehicle for Civics: Books about Jefferson outnumber those about other founders and serve to transmit civic values to children.
  • Mary Stuckey: “They’re secretly a way of teaching children what it means to be a citizen, what it means to be an American.” (31:35)
• Dealing with Difficult Truths: Even lighthearted books are now compelled to mention Sally Hemings and slavery, regardless of original intent.
  • Mary Stuckey: "Even authors who are trying to just write a delightful little story in rhyme about Jefferson have to deal with Sally Hemings and the children." (32:37)

9. What Jefferson Tells Us About Us (34:31)

• Fragmented Identity: The story isn’t about a unified “us”; there are many perspectives on Jefferson and, by extension, American identity.
  • Mary Stuckey: “There isn’t an us. There are a lot of us’s... The most dangerous portrayal is the one... that homogenizes all the founders into one sort of simple, uncomplicated mass of people.” (34:31; 36:42)
• Political Use of Memory: Choices around memorialization and remembrance always favor certain interests and are never neutral.

10. Nostalgia, Memory, and the Rural Myth (38:17)

• The Yeoman Farmer Ideal: Jefferson’s writing enshrined the image of the independent farmer, which persists in American self-conception despite limited historical accuracy.

11. Current and Future Work (39:19)

• Stuckey is semi-retired, editing a political communication handbook, and returning to studies of more contemporary presidents, including Donald Trump.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the political uses of memory:

  • “It is literally an attempt to put your politics in stone, to preserve them in a way that is unalterable. And of course, that fails, because nothing is unalterable.”
    (Mary Stuckey, 15:18)

• On Jefferson's adaptability:

  • “He keeps meaning so many things to so many people...” (Mary Stuckey, 04:21)

• On the pitfalls of historical myth:

  • “The most dangerous portrayal is the one... that homogenizes all the founders into one sort of simple, uncomplicated mass of people, because then people try to claim them on political ends, and I don't believe they're easily claimable that way.”
    (Mary Stuckey, 36:31)

• On teaching history:

  • “He wrote the Constitution. I remember grading those midterms.”
    (Lily Gorn, 18:52)

• On the function of children’s literature:

  • “They're secretly a way of teaching children what it means to be a citizen, what it means to be an American.”
    (Mary Stuckey, 31:35)

Key Timestamps

• 03:24 – Why Jefferson’s legacy is uniquely complex
• 05:39 – Book structure and rationale
• 11:20 – Presidential invocations of Jefferson
• 15:10 – Commemoration and politics of memorials
• 18:23 – Jefferson’s differentiated role at American monuments
• 22:15 – How audiences interpret Jefferson at different sites
• 25:12 – Jefferson in popular culture, especially film and television
• 30:00 – Jefferson’s image in children’s literature
• 34:31 – What American memory of Jefferson tells us about national identity
• 38:17 – The persistence of the yeoman farmer myth
• 39:19 – Stuckey’s current projects

Conclusion

This episode offers a rich, layered examination of how Thomas Jefferson functions as a barometer for American memory, identity, and contradiction. Mary Stuckey’s research demonstrates that our ongoing debates over Jefferson’s legacy mirror larger struggles over history, commemoration, and civic values. The book and discussion ultimately contend that there is no single “us” or unified interpretation of Jefferson, just as there is no unproblematic or fixed national identity.