Podcast Summary:

New Books Network – Sociology
Episode: Matt Dawson, "The Political Durkheim: Sociology, Socialism, Legacies" (Routledge, 2023)
Host: Rita Panna
Guest: Dr. Matt Dawson (University of Glasgow)
Date: January 2, 2026

Episode Overview

In this engaging episode, host Rita Panna interviews sociologist Matt Dawson about his latest book, The Political Durkheim: Sociology, Socialism, Legacies. The discussion explores how Dawson reinterprets Émile Durkheim—often cast as a conservative figure—in a radically different light: as a normative, critical thinker deeply entangled with socialist traditions. The conversation delves into Durkheim’s political sociology, his alternative models for society, his contemporary relevance (especially during crises like COVID-19), and his legacy in both scholarly and textbook representations.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Motivation for the Book and Rethinking Durkheim

• Initial Encounter: Dawson recounts that, like many of his generation, he found Durkheim presented as "staid and boring"—not radical, nor critical.
• Personal Turn: While researching socialism during his PhD, Dawson "rediscovered" a radical and political Durkheim, particularly through lesser-read works such as Socialism and Professional Ethics and Civic Morals.
• Central Motivation:
  • "I was really astounded by what I found there. I found a really radical critical Durkheim and I became a bit obsessed for it."
  • Dawson states the book is for readers who wish the book already existed—so he wrote it himself.
    (03:44)
• The Book’s Structure: A collection of essays (some previously published, some new), aiming to map out "the political Durkheim" in socialist contexts and contemporary relevance.

2. Why Reread the Classics?

• Living Canon: Dawson stresses the importance of constant re-reading and reinterpretation of sociological classics lest they become "stale" and "boring" (05:19).
  • Classics should include new voices (e.g., Du Bois, Martineau) and be read in new contexts.
  • "We don’t end up with sort of a boring canon that reflects what we’ve had. We just leave it unquestioned. We have to actually reread and reinterpret and engage with these ideas." (05:48)
• Durkheim's Ongoing Relevance: Each generation—and each crisis—invites new readings.

3. Positioning within Durkheim Scholarship

• Distancing from the "Strong Program": The latter, mainly American and associated with Jeffrey Alexander, divides Durkheim into two: "early" (structuralist) and "later" (cultural).
  • Dawson disagrees with this "split" and insists on reading Durkheim as a continuous, unified thinker:
    "I think there is a large level of continuity in Durkheim’s writing..." (09:27)
• Highlighting 'Professional Ethics and Civic Morals':
  • Argues this underappreciated text is vital to understanding Durkheim’s political and normative vision.
  • "For me, it’s his most valuable." (11:56)
• Socialist/Normative Focus: Dawson positions his book among those bringing out Durkheim’s critical edge but foregrounds Durkheim’s explicit connection to socialism and practical, contemporary issues.

4. What is the Political Durkheim?

• Normativity at the Core:
  • Durkheim defines concepts by "what should happen"—his sociology is inherently prescriptive.
  • "His concepts are always defined by what should happen as much as, and perhaps even sometimes more than what does happen." (12:47)
  • Example: The state should function as a "social brain," providing moral guidance—not just governance.
• Critique of Economic Centrality:
  • Durkheim critiques the dominance of amoral economic logic in politics.
  • Emphasizes the need to re-center morality and justice: "Politics has increasingly, for Durkheim, just become about economics. Instead, for him, there’s a need to reassert the question of morality." (17:00)

5. Durkheim’s Sociological Alternative: Corporations, Inheritance, and Education

• Three Pillars:
  1. Corporations:
     • Occupation-based democratic bodies, not unlike guilds, run industry and political representation.
     • "The corporation of car manufacturers run the industry. There’s no bourgeoisie, there’s no private capital..." (19:31)
  2. Ban on Inheritance:
     • Inheritance is "completely contradictory" to individualist merit. Instead, wealth goes to one's occupational corporation to be distributed democratically.
  3. Education Reform:
     • Education should foster "moral spirit of association" and critical thinking, not rote learning.
     • "Morality is about exciting, to use his term, a particular moral perspective in people..." (22:54)

6. Durkheim in the Socialist Tradition

• Libertarian Socialism:
  • Dawson sees Durkheim closest to the G.D.H. Cole guild/socialist tradition—democratically organized, occupation-based.
  • Key themes: opposition to both liberal democracy (as mere voting) and economic reductionism; a focus on democratic engagement through occupation.
  • "It’s a broader concern with justice and the good life..." (25:50)
  • Individual freedom is preserved through collective structures ("probationary whiteness": Durkheim’s contested position in French society; more below).

7. Contemporary Relevance: COVID-19 and Economic Crisis

• COVID-19 and the "Division of Labour":
  • The pandemic highlighted the real-world interdependence Durkheim theorized, distinguishing between "key workers" and those who could disengage.
  • Raised questions of justice, class, and reward—mirroring Durkheim’s insistence on moral, not just economic, regulation.
  • "Covid was a wonderful example of that... there was a political element here..." (29:16)
• Economic Recession and Anomie:
  • Durkheim’s critique: Unregulated desire and absence of collective moral limits fuel boom-bust cycles.
  • Individual blame dominates recession narratives—again, a problem Durkheim foresaw.
  • "We all need moral limits, right? ...To use the phrase that Durkheim uses, ‘no further.’" (32:19)

8. Durkheim in Textbooks: The Dual Legacy

• Textbook Contradictions:
  • Most textbooks, per Dawson’s research (and Canadian studies), present Durkheim as both foundational and naïvely conservative.
  • The latter version dominates, leading students to dismiss him.
  • "You have to create a conservative Durkheim... to sort of feed students into them." (37:52)
  • Dawson laments this flattening and strives to restore Durkheim’s richness for new generations.

9. Durkheim’s Legacy and Decolonial Critique

• Nuanced Legacy:
  • Decolonial critiques challenge uncritical reverence for "classical" theorists.
  • However, Dawson cautions against "racial essentialism" and notes Durkheim’s "probationary whiteness" as a marginalized Jew during the Dreyfus Affair.
  • Calls for nuanced, context-aware appraisals.
• Normative Sociology:
  • Durkheim’s explicit notion of what society should be is both inspiration and challenge for today’s sociologists.
  • Legacy rests in both his enduring insights and his example as a prolific, communicative scholarly writer—even through formats like book reviews.

Notable quote:
"The legacy of any classical theorists... should be about, you know, to what extent do they give us those insights there. And if they have that, that’s as good a legacy to have as anything." (43:33)

Notable Quotes & Moments

• On discovering the "political Durkheim":
  "I found a really radical critical Durkheim and I became a bit obsessed for it." (03:25, Matt Dawson)

• Why reread classics?
  "It's not just purely a sort of historical question of justice, although it is that. It's also about saying, now these people are really valuable. They're really important." (05:40, Matt Dawson)

• On Durkheim’s alternative:
  "All this focus he offers on particular forms of socialist organization is always linked to the type of individualism he talks about in his wonderful essay, Individualism and Intellectuals..." (25:35, Matt Dawson)

• On contemporary relevance (COVID):
  "COVID was a wonderful example ... The division of labor is, in his word, a mission of justice. It’s about making all of us have positions in divisional labour which are valued..." (29:55, Matt Dawson)

• On textbooks’ portrayal:
  "There was, on one hand, this invocation of Durkheim as this really significant figure ... but also at the same time, this, like, naive writer who we shouldn't really be concerned with." (36:25, Matt Dawson)

• On Durkheim’s nuanced legacy:
  "He could only have, following Jacobson, what I called probationary whiteness. You know, he would be white at some points, but most of the time he was denied that he was seen as not white." (41:31, Matt Dawson)

Key Timestamps

• 02:06: Motivation for writing the book
• 05:19: Importance and process of rereading/reinterpreting classics
• 08:48: How the book fits into theoretical literature on Durkheim
• 12:44: What marks ‘the political Durkheim’ — normativity & moral focus
• 18:42: Durkheim’s sociological alternative (corporations, inheritance, education)
• 24:05: Placement of Durkheim within the socialist tradition
• 28:06: Durkheimian insights on COVID-19
• 32:04: Economic recession through Durkheim’s lens
• 35:36: Durkheim’s representation in sociological textbooks
• 39:03: Durkheim’s legacy, decolonial critique, and enduring value

Conclusion

This episode offers a compelling rethink of Durkheim’s role in political sociology and the socialist tradition. Matt Dawson urges listeners to revisit Durkheim as a profoundly normative and critical thinker whose work, when properly understood, addresses the moral crises and political dilemmas of our own time. The conversation is rich in historical context, theoretical insight, and practical relevance—from 19th-century France to the COVID-19 pandemic—making it valuable for both sociologists and general audiences.

Recommended for:

• Students and scholars of sociology
• Anyone interested in the classics, social theory, or the intersection of politics and ethics