Episode Overview

Podcast: New Books Network
Episode: Matthew Scobie and Anna Sturman, "The Economic Possibilities of Decolonisation" (Bridget Williams Books, 2024)
Host: Dr. Miranda Melcher
Date: December 22, 2025

This episode explores the main arguments, motivations, and contributions of "The Economic Possibilities of Decolonisation", a concise but impactful book by Dr. Matthew Scobie and Dr. Anna Sturman. The discussion focuses on decolonization, the transformation of political economy in New Zealand (Aotearoa), the history and present of Māori economies, the legacies and ongoing realities of colonial capitalism, and possibilities for the future, both imagined and actionable. The hosts and authors engage in a nuanced conversation about indigenous economies, land, identity, and hope for transformation.

Episode Breakdown

1. Introductions and Origins of the Book

• Speakers Introduce Themselves:

  • Dr. Anna Sturman: Political economist and human geographer at University of Sydney, originally from Aotearoa/New Zealand.
    (02:37)
  • Dr. Matthew Scobie: Teaches at University of Canterbury, identifies as critical accountant and moving toward "Māori political economy." Affiliations: Ngāi Tahu and Tauiwi. (03:10)

• Story of Collaboration:

  • The impetus was a call from an iwi (tribal) leader during the 2020 COVID lockdown for a quick analysis on how crises are used by the Crown to further its own power at Māori expense. Scobie invited Sturman for her complementary expertise, and this impromptu partnership expanded into the book.
  • “I got a call from a leader in the iwi … said, Matt, I need two pages on how the Crown uses crises to further its own power at the expense of Māori, and I need it in 24 hours.” — Dr. Matthew Scobie (03:10)
  • Collaboration allowed both to integrate decades of research and perspectives they couldn’t have generated alone. (05:08)

2. Audience and Aims

• Intended primarily for a New Zealand audience—students, activists, Māori (especially leadership)—but also useful for international academics and others interested in understanding and changing the relationship between colonialism and capitalism.
• “We were aiming this for kind of a New Zealand audience mostly, and people who want some tools to understand the relationship between colonialism and capitalism—and then change that relationship.” — Dr. Matthew Scobie (07:19)
• Emphasis on the book’s concise yet “punchy” character; designed to be accessible and “genuinely useful.” (09:08)

3. Māori Economies before Colonialism (10:52)

• Comprehensive section on the diversity and complexity of pre-colonial Māori economies.
• Caveats:
  • Reliance on anthropological sources filtered through Pākehā (European) or outside lenses.
  • Extreme regional diversity—e.g., the ‘Kūmara line’ differentiated economies in the North (agriculture) from the South.
  • “It’s not inevitable that Māori economies would evolve into this form that we have now.” — Dr. Matthew Scobie (10:52)
• Key Features Pre-colonial:
  • Forms of property rights (taonga, or treasures/resources) tied to obligations within families and communities.
  • Labor and exchange existed, but not mediated by profit or wages—motivated by mana (prestige), whakapapa (genealogical relationship), collective obligation.
  • Extensive trade networks—e.g., pounamu (greenstone) moved across regions; value systems based on relationship, not market profit.
  • “These things … were similar. … But in many ways they were quite different as well.” — Dr. Matthew Scobie (16:39)

4. Colonial Expansion and Transformation

• Initial European Arrivals: Early contacts mediated on Māori terms; not a systematic colonization at first. (20:14)
• Historical context: Arrival coincided with global upheavals (American Revolution, British imperialism elsewhere).
• “For a really long stretch of time … over decades … was still undertaken on the terms of Māori.” — Dr. Anna Sturman (22:00)
• Māori Agency:
  • Māori first responded by doubling down on their own traditions and incorporating new tools on their own terms, not simply adopting settler models.
  • “The first commercial impulse of indigenous peoples is, rather than becoming European, to become more like themselves.” — Dr. Matthew Scobie (23:17, citing Marshall Sahlins)

5. Mechanisms of Land Dispossession and Colonial Capitalism

• The heart of transformation: expropriation of Māori land.
• Key Stages: (25:00)
  1. Preemption: 1840 Treaty of Waitangi (Te Tiriti o Waitangi) set up the Crown as sole purchaser; "conquest by contract."
  2. Confiscation (Raupatu): When Māori stopped selling, violent invasions and takings followed.
  3. Native Land Court: Individualized land title, forced sales to pay legal/survey fees, further eroding land base.
  • “Even if you kind of won your case … then you had to pay lawyers and surveyors for that. And … the way to get cash was to sell land.” — Dr. Matthew Scobie (29:41)
• This dispossession both devastated Māori society and constructed a new property regime, co-opting Māori existence into colonial capitalist norms.
• “It was actually very deliberately constructed in this way to make it really difficult for Māori to be able to exist in relation to the land in a way that would satisfy their pre-existing way of structuring their economies in society.” — Dr. Anna Sturman (31:07)

6. Māori Political Economy Today: Within, Against, Beyond

• Contemporary Realities: Despite dispossession, many traditional Māori economic activities continue or are being revitalized.
  • E.g., marae (community) gatherings, Mahinga kai (food practices), social reproduction.
  • “All of the things I mentioned before never stopped. They were never completely erased and they never will be.” — Dr. Matthew Scobie (32:10)
• Treaty Settlements/Entities:
  • 1990s onward: Crown uses limited settlements through “post-settlement governance entities” (e.g., Te Rūnanga o Ngāi Tahu).
  • These have both opportunities (reinvesting in Māori, language & cultural revitalization, legal advocacy) and contradictions (property logic often at odds with whakapapa and tikanga).
  • “We did have this intimate relationship, tangata whenua, with land and we get back property and that's a different thing to get back …” — Dr. Matthew Scobie (32:10)
  • “They [entities] can lift people's livelihoods, but they can also create new sets of problems that Māori have to continue to work through as well.” — Dr. Matthew Scobie (38:45)

7. Decolonized Futures: Possibilities and Crises

• Moments of Crisis:
  • COVID-19 and other shocks (earthquakes, fires, environmental crises) reveal resilience and alternative practices alive in Māori communities.
  • “It's in moments of crisis … that we see these forms of social and ecological care … coming out into the open and revealing themselves, making themselves known.” — Dr. Anna Sturman (39:57)
• Vision for the Future:
  • Hope lies in amplifying these practices and shifting “social reproduction” toward care, community, and whakapapa.
  • “… the future of Aotearoa depends on how Māori engage with capitalism.” — Dr. Matthew Scobie (42:26)
  • Both speakers emphasize the need to “generalize out” from these flashes of alternative practice to sustainable transformation (41:13).
  • “Rangatiratanga, leadership and self-determination … can deliver, not just for Māori, but for everyone around.” — Dr. Matthew Scobie (43:50)

8. Law, Policy, and Real-World Implications

• Legal Developments:
  • Growth of tikanga (Māori law) in New Zealand courts.
  • Māori representation on councils; co-governance arrangements (e.g., rivers, lakes).
  • Legal personhood for natural features, emerging from settlement process.
  • “All of the things I just mentioned [in terms of progress] are being systematically kind of unpicked in very destructive ways.” — Dr. Matthew Scobie, on reactionary politics (46:41)
• “Constitutional transformation implies economic transformation and economic transformation implies constitutional transformation.” — Dr. Anna Sturman (44:52)
• Current Reactionary Pushback: Authors express concern over recent backlash/reversal of gains in Māori legal and economic agency, highlighting the ongoing struggle. (47:08)

9. What’s Next? Ongoing Research and Projects

• Scobie: Leading a collaborative project, Towards a Kaupapa Māori Political Economy, focusing on fiscal and monetary policy, markets, and developing “speculative fiction” to imagine new economic futures if the Treaty were honored.
  • “The book was like a short provocation … now we're thinking what are the kind of pressure points where we might put pressure on the current form to make room for more Māori self-determination.” — Dr. Matthew Scobie (46:41, 52:01)
• Sturman: Focusing on state-led ecological repair in Australia, exploring the links between valuing nature, capital, and the sustainability of indigenous lifeways within the Australian economy.
  • “How value and nature and reproduction in the background of the productive economy operates, which is how I hinge onto the question of how indigenous lifeways both support and are depleted by the productive economy.” — Dr. Anna Sturman (53:35)
• Both express hope for another collaborative book in the future.

Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• “I got a call from a leader in the iwi … said, Matt, I need two pages on how the Crown uses crises to further its own power at the expense of Māori, and I need it in 24 hours.” — Dr. Matthew Scobie (03:10)
• “We were aiming this for kind of a New Zealand audience mostly, and people who want some tools to understand the relationship between colonialism and capitalism—and then change that relationship.” — Dr. Matthew Scobie (07:19)
• “It's not inevitable that Māori economies would evolve into this form that we have now.” — Dr. Matthew Scobie (10:52)
• “The first commercial impulse of indigenous peoples is, rather than becoming European, to become more like themselves.” — Dr. Matthew Scobie citing Marshall Sahlins (23:17)
• “It was actually very deliberately constructed in this way to make it really difficult for Māori to be able to exist in relation to the land in a way that would satisfy their pre-existing way of structuring their economies in society.” — Dr. Anna Sturman (31:07)
• “It's in moments of crisis … that we see these forms of social and ecological care … coming out into the open and revealing themselves, making themselves known.” — Dr. Anna Sturman (39:57)
• “The future of Aotearoa depends on how Māori engage with capitalism.” — Dr. Matthew Scobie (42:26)
• “Constitutional transformation implies economic transformation and economic transformation implies constitutional transformation.” — Dr. Anna Sturman (44:52)
• “We're all very busy. The big project I've got going … is called Towards a Kaupapa Māori Political Economy … having kind of workshop activities around what would New Zealand's political economy look like if Te Tiriti had been honored or if Te Tiriti was honoured.” — Dr. Matthew Scobie (52:01)
• “I think we continue talking about the questions that were raised in our book. I think one day hopefully we'll have another book in us.” — Dr. Anna Sturman (53:35)

Summary Table of Timestamps & Segments

| Timestamp | Segment / Key Point | |-------------|-------------------------------------------------------------| | 01:29-03:10 | Introductions, how the collaboration began | | 05:08-06:43 | On combining complementary backgrounds and aims | | 07:19-09:08 | Intended audience and the value of “useful” scholarship | | 10:52-17:25 | Pre-colonial Māori economies: diversity & cautionary notes | | 19:34-20:14 | European arrival: initial changes, Māori responses | | 23:17 | “Become more like themselves”: Māori agency in adaptation | | 25:00-31:36 | Land dispossession: preemption, confiscation, legal regime | | 32:10-39:40 | Māori political economy today: persistence, revitalization | | 39:57-44:24 | Vision for the future, crises as moments of possibility | | 44:52-51:28 | Law, policy, constitutional change, reactionary setbacks | | 52:01-55:08 | Ongoing research directions, future collaboration |

Closing Thoughts

This episode is a rich, accessible entry point into the conceptual and political debates around decolonization and economic transformation in Aotearoa/New Zealand. Scobie and Sturman balance deep historical context with urgent, contemporary relevance, emphasizing both the need for critical thinking and the power of indigenous resilience and innovation.

Their discussion champions a praxis-focused scholarship intended to empower Māori, spark new policy debates, and inspire broader audiences to rethink what an economy—and a just society—can look like.