Podcast Summary

Podcast: New Books Network
Episode: Melanie McDonagh, "Converts: From Oscar Wilde to Muriel Spark, Why So Many Became Catholic in the 20th Century" (Yale UP, 2025)
Host: Dr. Miranda Melcher
Guest: Melanie McDonagh
Date: December 6, 2025

Main Theme & Purpose

This episode explores Melanie McDonagh's new book, which examines the remarkable wave of Catholic conversions among British artists, writers, and intellectuals from the late 19th century through the 20th century. The discussion delves into what motivated figures like Oscar Wilde, Evelyn Waugh, Graham Greene, and Muriel Spark (among others) to convert, how these conversions were perceived by society and the Church, and what their impacts were—both personally and culturally. The episode balances intimate biographical stories with broader historical and cultural analysis, highlighting continuity and change in converts’ motivations and experiences over time.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Origin & Motivation for the Book

• Personal Motivation:
  • Melanie was struck by the prevalence of conversions among the “decadent” circle surrounding Oscar Wilde and noticed a historical pattern that seemed strangely underexplored in scholarship.

    “Almost all of them became Catholic...that struck me as being rather remarkable.” (02:58)

• Sincerity & Impact of Conversions:
  • Contradicts the trope that conversions were superficial, coerced, or psychological crutches. For most, it was “the most important event in their life.” (05:03)
  • Emphasizes the profound, often lifelong, impact these conversions had on individuals’ lives and works.

2. The Search for Authority and Continuity

• Cultural Yearning:
  • Converts sought “the fire and authority of the Church” (06:28), especially in unstable times (e.g., World Wars, economic upheaval).
  • Graham Greene’s desire for “something firm and hard and certain in these times.” (06:44)

3. Scale of Conversions

• Numbers & Trends:
  • Roughly 3,000 conversions/year at the start of the 20th century, rising notably during and after WWI and increasing steeply into the 1960s.
  • Over 600,000 people converted in the period under study, with only “one-sided” records (i.e., entries, no records of departures). (08:45)

4. Converts as Subversive: The 1890s

• Societal Suspicion:
  • Conversion seen as subversive and even threatening—“these aren't converts, these are perverts...the Church of Rome goes in for body snatching of this kind.” (11:15)
  • Common myths: Jesuit manipulation, ritual attraction, and lack of free will (“the priest got him”). (13:34)
  • Artistry and conversion intertwined; for some artists, it was “subversive” or boundary-pushing. (10:59)

5. Motivations: Ritual, Beauty, and the ‘Real Thing’

• Not About Aesthetics Alone:
  • Many did not convert for ritual or aesthetic beauty; in fact, some, like Graham Greene, found Catholic churches “completely hideous” but were after “the real thing,” i.e., authenticity and true authority. (14:03)

6. Oscar Wilde's Conversion

• A Deathbed Reconciliation:

  • Wilde’s path back to Catholicism after prison, his intent to convert, and the circumstances of his eventual reception into the Church on his deathbed.

    “Father Cuthbert came with him to Oscar Wilde's deathbed...Wilde was perfectly sensible of what was going on.” (18:12–21:44)

• Misconceptions:

  • Challenges to legitimacy (whether Wilde was cognizant enough, for example) were addressed by those present.

7. The Church’s Perspective on Intellectual & Artistic Converts

• “Natural End” for Sinners and Artists:
  • Seen as a proper evolution for those seeking forgiveness and as a logical move for artists, given Catholicism’s sacramental, symbolic richness.
  • “I've become a Catholic, as every artist must.” —Ernest Dawson (22:56)

8. Types of Converts

• Variation:
  • Both deeply religious and previously irreligious figures became converts—ranges from those, like Maurice Baring, for whom it was "all or nothing," to Muriel Spark, who came gradually via Anglo-Catholicism and Newman's writings. (24:59–27:59)

9. The Figure of John Henry Newman

• Newman’s Influence:
  • The quintessential intellectual convert; his trajectory and writings (e.g., the Apologia, Essay on Development of Doctrine) paved the way for Anglicans and the irreligious alike.
  • “...if any of the Church Fathers had returned to earth...they would have gravitated towards the unprepossessing Catholic Church in [St. Mary] Moorfields...” (29:01–32:54)

10. Social Contagion

• Conversion as ‘Contagious’:
  • Often conversions spread within families and social circles, sometimes via exemplars or intimate discussion, sometimes not (“the principle of contagion”).
  • Noted examples include the Beardsley family and social groups, though not uniformly present in every context. (35:33–37:55)

11. World War I and the Surge in Conversions

• Death & Urgency:
  • Proximity to death prompted many to seek forgiveness and the sacraments, sometimes accelerating the conversion process.
  • Catholic chaplains distinguished by their sacramental ministry in battle, impacting soldiers’ perceptions of Catholicism.

    “If you know that there's a very lively possibility that you die within weeks… it does concentrate the minds.” (38:21–42:54)

12. Between the Wars & into the Mid-Century

• Conversions Become Fashions:
  • By the 1920s, conversion was a marked intellectual or upper-class trend—no longer shocking but even somewhat expected in certain circles.
  • Post-war uncertainty (both after WWI and WWII/Cold War) drove people to seek the Church’s stability and authority. (43:16–45:50)

13. Vatican II and Its Impacts

• A Crisis for Converts:
  • The post–Vatican II reforms (liturgy, language, clerical expectations) caused great distress among some converts, who felt alienated by drastic changes they had not anticipated.

    “It was terrible for some of them...Even more said that he felt he’d been kicked in the guts by Vatican II.” (46:17)

  • Converts tended to lead opposition to reforms, less deferential to authority than “cradle Catholics.” Some, like Muriel Spark, were more adaptive and involved in the reform process, but with reservations. (52:07)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the draw of Catholic continuity:

  "If you looked at the Catholic Church, you could see a line of continuity that stretched back to the apostles." (07:22, Melanie McDonagh paraphrasing Newman)

• On the suspicion surrounding converts:

  “These aren't converts, these are perverts. So the Church of Rome goes in for body snatching of this kind.” (11:15, public reaction described by McDonagh)

• On artists’ attraction to Catholicism:

  "I've become a Catholic, as every artist must." (22:56, Ernest Dawson, relayed by McDonagh)

• On the ‘contagion’ of conversion:

  “Once one member of the family does [convert], it quite often happens that others follow suit.” (35:43, McDonagh)

• On war and conversion:

  “If you know that there's a very lively possibility that you die within weeks when you're sent to Flanders, that does concentrate the minds.” (38:21, McDonagh)

• On Vatican II:

  "It was terrible for some of them...Evelyn Waugh said he felt he’d been kicked in the guts by Vatican II." (46:17, McDonagh)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Introduction & Book Motivation: [02:52–06:28]
• Search for Authority & Continuity: [06:28–08:11]
• Scale and Statistics of Conversions: [08:45–10:21]
• Subversive Conversions in 1890s: [10:59–15:00]
• Oscar Wilde’s Conversion: [17:52–21:44]
• Church’s View on Artistic/Intellectual Converts: [21:44–24:18]
• Variety in Conversion Paths: [24:18–28:24]
• John Henry Newman’s Influence: [28:56–32:54]
• Contagion Principle in Social/Familial Conversion: [35:18–37:55]
• World War I’s Impact on Converts: [38:21–42:54]
• Interwar & Postwar Trends, Fashion of Conversion: [42:54–45:50]
• Vatican II and its Challenges: [45:50–52:16]
• Present-day Reflection: [52:41–53:41]

Overall Tone & Takeaways

McDonagh brings a tone that is scholarly but engaging, mixing anecdote and analysis with a palpable sense of curiosity and empathy for her subjects. The conversation demystifies the mythic, sometimes suspicious, sometimes poetic aura around “the convert” and explains, in human and historical terms, why this phenomenon remains compelling. Ultimately, the episode suggests that religious conversion—particularly among intellectuals and artists—has been both countercultural and deeply personal, shaped by circumstance, persuasion, crisis, and conviction across the generations.

Further Exploration

For listeners intrigued by the intersection of culture, faith, and personal transformation, Melanie McDonagh’s Converts provides both a group portrait of remarkable individuals and an analysis of the societal currents that shaped them. The episode is a compelling guide for understanding why, in the words of her subject Graham Greene, so many sought “something firm and hard and certain in these times”—and still do today.