Podcast Summary

Podcast: New Books Network – French Studies

Episode: Melissa Byrnes, "Making Space: Neighbors, Officials, and North African Migrants in the Suburbs of Paris and Lyon"

Host: Sarah Miles

Guest: Melissa K. Byrnes

Date: December 13, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode explores Melissa Byrnes' new book, Making Space: Neighbors, Officials, and North African Migrants in the Suburbs of Paris and Lyon (U Nebraska Press, 2024). The book investigates the lived dynamics of migration, local politics, and community belonging in four French suburbs from the 1950s to the 1970s, revealing how municipalities, officials, and activists shaped, and were shaped by, North African migration amid France’s housing crisis and decolonization.

Main Discussion Points & Insights

1. Origins of Byrnes’ Interest in French Migration (02:50–05:01)

• Byrnes’ path to French history began with her early ballet training, learning French through dance.
• Her shift into migration studies originated from her grad school experience right after 9/11, which raised questions of how Western societies interact with Muslim communities.
• A key moment: “I started paying attention to the French Empire with that question behind things, expecting that I would mostly find, like, what we shouldn't do, which is largely, largely the case.” (Melissa Byrnes, 03:33)
• She transitioned from policy to academia, drawn by the deeper, complex questions history allowed her to pursue.

2. Organizational Logic: Motivation over Chronology (05:01–06:57)

• Byrnes departed from strict chronological structure to organize the book around motivations for action among officials and activists.
• This approach lets her “ask much more interesting questions and have more fun... instead of doing this, there's an old version where it's like this chronological slog...” (Melissa Byrnes, 06:45)

3. Complexities of Advocacy and Motivation (06:57–10:35)

• The book explores the messiness of advocacy — how officials claim to act for migrants, but often with mixed or self-interested motives.
• Byrnes: “When do we as human beings ever do anything for just one purpose? ...That's something I love about having these sort of smaller units to look at with local history...” (Melissa Byrnes, 07:28)
• Even cynical, vote-seeking behaviors can have the byproduct of inclusion.
• “...even attempting to get votes from people is also a form of inclusion. Right. That is a way to bring somebody into the political community.” (Sarah Miles, 10:03)

4. Housing, Urban Renewal, and Modernizing Ideals (11:11–14:20)

• First chapter explores modernization as both an ideal and imperial legacy.
• “We want a modern city. And I think, you know, at this point we're in the sort of early 50s and it's really important to mark that as heavily imperial language.” (Melissa Byrnes, 11:35)
• Modernizing often meant dismantling bidonvilles (slums), both from urban-planning and social exclusion standpoints.
• Example: In Anières, major urban renewal projects aimed to clear slums, often to “get rid of these people... They should be someone else's problem.” (Melissa Byrnes, 14:01)

5. Network Effects: Parisian Suburbs and Regional Policy (14:20–18:58)

• Housing policies entwined multiple municipalities and employers’ interests; localities sometimes sought to “push as many of these people outside.”
• Proximity to employment and city centers became a major sticking point; in Lyon, migrants were pushed from the city center to peripheral suburbs.
• Cities could also make staying uncomfortable through policing and restrictions.

6. Agency and Attitudes: Policymakers, Locals, and Migrants (18:58–21:44)

• Local politicians like mayors often drove policy, supported by residents’ complaints (often racialized) about cleanliness or public order.
• North African migrants themselves wrote letters—often highlighting their own Frenchness or willingness to move for better opportunities—showing awareness of belonging strategies and exclusion.

7. Comparison of Suburbs: St. Denis as an Exception (23:00–29:57)

• St. Denis distinguished itself with proactive, inclusive approaches, treating Algerians as “fellow workers” and taking radical anti-imperialist stances even before the Communist Party did nationally.
• The book probes whether left-wing or communist ideology alone explains these differences; Byrnes sees local tradition and repeated solidarity with new migrant groups (“the next group we are sort of folding in”) as a key factor.

8. Belonging: Local vs. National (29:57–34:56)

• Explores how “local belonging is both way more flexible and also sometimes way less flexible than citizenship.”
• Migrants leveraged city-level or neighborhood identities, often consciously, for practical ends.
• “You never have that question, do they really feel Dionysian or are they invoking that because it's going to help them get what they need.” (Melissa Byrnes, 30:48)

9. Funding, Control, and Municipal Politics in St. Denis (34:56–38:04)

• St. Denis demanded state resources yet also insisted on controlling distribution, citing both distrust (“welfare as…surveillance tactic”) and a desire for solidarity.
• “There's also a way that…they want to be the ones that get the credit for this. They want to be the ones that have...it's almost paternalist, right?” (Melissa Byrnes, 35:58)

10. Representation and Everyday Embeddedness (38:04–43:01)

• St. Denis showed higher North African representation and civic embedding (unlike Anières, where migrants were physically marginalized).
• Notable anecdote: “They actually do not have a North African Muslim on the city council, but there is someone who has clear North African roots and he's in charge of housing...” (Melissa Byrnes, 41:16)

11. Imperial Legacies and Local “Care” (43:01–49:13)

• In Lyon, celebrations like Ramadan were organized by French officials for migrants—but reflected imperial, paternalistic attitudes rather than collaboration.
• Local officials sometimes explicitly justified their actions as serving the French Empire, illustrating how “imperial politics came home.”

12. Profit, Exploitation, and “Progressive” Rhetoric (49:13–54:25)

• The Olivier de Serres complex: Private profit motives led owners to extort migrants, even while publicly espousing progressive language about equality and rights.
• “Some of the most...eloquent expressions of why North African migrants should be considered full members of these communities...and yet he's making that case in order to continue to extort them...” (Melissa Byrnes, 53:43)

13. Legal Statuses: Algerian vs. North African vs. “Foreigners” (54:26–59:10)

• Discusses racial/ethnic profiling and shifting legal categories as Algeria becomes independent; terminology in archival sources (North African, Algerian, etc.) often used interchangeably, belies meaningful distinctions.
• Post-1962, policies increasingly lumped all foreign workers together, leading to loss of specific programs.

14. Solidarity, Religion, and Non-National Coalitions (59:10–63:32)

• The final chapter explores solidarity rooted in “non-national definitions of belonging”: Catholic, Protestant, and leftist groups operating across boundaries to advocate for migrants.
• “They're not advocating for these people as members of their flock. They're saying, we have, as religious leaders, we have a responsibility to a broader humanitarian platform...” (Melissa Byrnes, 61:08)
• Even Maoists and Catholic groups sometimes found themselves fighting similar injustices stemming from local policies, united by broader humanist motivations.

15. Larger Lessons: Rethinking Inclusion Beyond the Nation (64:08–65:46)

• Byrnes asserts that meaningful inclusion and coalitions often arise when communities act outside a strict nation-state framework.
• “A lot of things become possible when that's not the only framework...” (Melissa Byrnes, 64:15)
• Local histories, she argues, offer rich vantage points on global and transnational phenomena, bypassing national assumptions and allowing more flexible forms of solidarity and identity.

16. Byrnes’ Next Project and Continuing Themes (65:55–68:16)

• Her ongoing research traces how local activists in French suburbs shape transnational human rights movements—continuing the focus on how small-scale, everyday alliances build “other workable models of inclusive citizenship.”

Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• “When do we as human beings ever do anything for just one purpose? ...Everyone's got lots of different things going on.” (Melissa Byrnes, 07:28)
• “Even attempting to get votes from people is also a form of inclusion.” (Sarah Miles, 10:03)
• “We want a modern city…really important to mark that as heavily imperial language.” (Melissa Byrnes, 11:35)
• “It's really clear that they are clearing away these Bidonville with the intention of also getting rid of these people.” (Melissa Byrnes, 14:01)
• “It's different to make a case for belonging somewhere if you've also got that place saying that they think you belong.” (Melissa Byrnes, 23:12)
• “Local belonging is both way more flexible and also sometimes way less flexible than citizenship...[M]igrants leveraged city-level or neighborhood identities, often consciously, for practical ends.” (Melissa Byrnes, 30:48)
• “We don't necessarily... live every day to day as a citizen necessarily. We live in much smaller groups and we encounter smaller groups of people.” (Melissa Byrnes, 32:11)
• “It's almost paternalist, right? It is in some ways very paternalist, right. This idea that they're going to take care of these fellow workers who, who are. Who are being oppressed and that they're going to be the ones that helped fight for their, for their freedom.” (Melissa Byrnes, 35:58)
• “They actually do not have a North African Muslim on the city council, but there is someone who has clear North African roots and he's in charge of housing for...the late 50s.” (Melissa Byrnes, 41:16)
• “Some of the most...eloquent expressions of why North African migrants should be considered full members of these communities...and yet he's making that case in order to continue to extort them...” (Melissa Byrnes, 53:43)
• “A lot of things become possible when that's not the only framework [the nation-state]... when people, like actual people, start to think of themselves as having relationships that don’t follow particular citizenship or nationalist lines...” (Melissa Byrnes, 64:15)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Introduction & Byrnes’ Background – 01:36–05:01
• Why Motivation, Not Chronology – 05:01–06:57
• Complexity of Advocacy – 06:57–10:35
• Housing & Modernization – 11:11–14:20
• Regional Coordination & Exclusion – 14:20–18:58
• Agency and Local Complaint – 18:58–21:44
• St. Denis’ Unique Model – 23:00–29:57
• Belonging and Identity – 29:57–34:56
• Resource Politics in St. Denis – 34:56–38:04
• Representation and Embeddedness – 38:04–43:01
• Imperial Logics in Lyon – 43:01–49:13
• Profit-Driven “Solidarity” – 49:13–54:25
• Legal Status and Migration – 54:26–59:10
• Solidarity Beyond the State – 59:10–63:32
• Lessons for Inclusion & Next Project – 64:08–68:16

Conclusion: Flow & Takeaways

This episode offers a deep dive into how local histories disrupt familiar national narratives regarding migration, belonging, and activism in post-war France. Byrnes’ focus on motivations—rather than outcomes alone—highlights the complexity and ambivalence of advocacy, solidarity, and exclusion among officials, neighbors, and migrants. Local, everyday interactions and politics emerge as both sites of exclusion and surprisingly creative, resourceful models for inclusive community—often in tension with, or bypassing, the frameworks imposed by the nation-state.

For listeners and scholars interested in migration, urban history, or French studies, Byrnes' work reflects the lived, ambiguous politics of “making space”—and how, through a mosaic of motives and strategies, new forms of community, solidarity, and exclusion are built, challenged, and reimagined.