B (4:02)

Excellent. Could you speak a little bit more about how memory diving works and what was exciting to you about that magic system technology situation?

C (4:11)

Oh, man. They take some shrooms and they trip and they hallucinate these memories. It's like, my friend who read it, she was like, I feel like I am on drugs. And I said, yes, it is legal drug use here in the spine. We are allowed to do that. And I didn't realize until later that it's like a fantasy version of Assassin's Creed where nobody ever explains the technology for the memory recalls in Assassin's Creed. That's one of my big bones to pick with. The AC franchise is like, memory doesn't work like that. You can't just dive into somebody's head and just, like, have this whole world built out. So with. With this, I was like, well, what if we could just, you know, each room and trip on somebody else's memories? And if that were possible, can we give them to other people? And then, you know, suddenly this economy sprung up and these ethical questions came up. I try not to talk too much about what goes into the sausage because I think it's important to maintain an air of mystery. I do know the percentages basically of what goes into the memory Diving. So if I were ever cornered somewhere and asked, well, how does this work? What percentage of this and that has to go into. Into this? I would be able to answer, but I like to let things be mysteries.

B (5:34)

I love that you have the exact percentages that you figured all of that out.

C (5:39)

I do. I have the timeline, I have the family trees. There's extensive world building behind the scenes. But like, I ascribed to the glacier method, where you only see the little tip, and then, like all the rest of it that didn't make it into the book. Is there.

B (5:54)

Yeah, absolutely. There's also, like, a lot of risks involved with diving. It's not necessarily a thing that the human brain is really designed to do, to have a lot of other people's memories in there. So I was wondering if you could speak a little bit about sort of the risks or the ways that you wanted to build protections in. Because there's art therapy, there's reintegration, and I think you do a really interesting job of pulling a bunch of things together there.

C (6:21)

So I have a background in psychology and neuroscience. It would have been the field I went into had I not decided to go the, for me, the easier route and go into music instead, and then, you know, into novel writing. But had I decided to go the other way, I would have been very interested in a lot of neuropsychology and neuroscience with regard to that. You know, I feel like when I talk to people about how memory works, how recall works, that inside out is actually one of the best depictions of how working memory is. I hate using the same word, but how working memory works. And so with the memory diving, the hallucinations that are pulled up, the memories that are pulled up become the foremost thing in the working memory. And a little magic and a little science sprinkled in later. It turns out that for some people who are exceptionally sensitive to the blood chalice, that you could have a rogue personality take over. You can become ungrounded from your own personality. You can hallucinate, obviously, when you're not supposed to be hallucinating. So I took some therapeutic methods with the grounding, making sure that you're not dissociating from your body, which I haven't done, but I have friends who have definitely done that. And they, you know, talked about grounding techniques and then also reintegration, which is like painting over the working memory. Should I talk a little bit about working memory?

B (8:00)

If you'd like to. That'd be great.

C (8:01)

Okay. I think about, or when I was in school for this which is such a long time ago. So the model has definitely gotten more sophisticated again. Inside out, perfect way, like they encapsulated that. When I was watching it, I was like, oh, a no notes. Working memory is essentially like a toy chest. People used to call this short term memory, but it is working memory because it contains both short and long term memory types of memories. And anytime you have new information entering your brain and your senses, all that data kind of goes into this toy chest. And the more you retrieve that data, the more that toy stays on the top of the chest, versus if you don't retrieve something often, then that toy falls to the bottom of the chest and then you eventually forget it. So with reintegration, what it is is essentially we're going to pull out all the top toys in the chest and dump in copies of the things that you had just been playing with a day ago, six hours ago, that kind of thing. And hopefully that will allow you to continue functioning as a human being instead of having all these invading, invasive memories just intruding upon your life. And that's probably the biggest safeguard against memory intrusion.

B (9:17)

You do such a lovely job of building this really thoughtful and nuanced way that memory diving works. And I think that there is often such a disconnect between the way that popular culture conceives of memory and understanding and the way that it actually works. And definitely things like inside Out, I think that our perception of it is improving. But it's really fun and really lovely to see things so grounded and thoughtfully done. And so you have sort of that central technology or magic, the heart of things with memory diving. And there are, of course, humans building institutions coming out of that Protagonist Key is really involved in sort of two institutions. Right. So there's both the Institute of Human Memory, this museum that she works for, and there's also the temple that she is involved in, in a religious capacity and also a familial capacity. And I was wondering if you could speak a little bit to that decision to have sort of like these two institutions. And what you sort of went into that.

C (10:12)

Yeah. Talking to any archivist and asking that question, well, why should there be multiple institutions dedicated to archival, to preservation? The archivists will immediately say, well, you don't want your personal information in the museum, do you? It is kind of a horror show, actually, to think of anything that's in your house could one day be in a museum through, under no control of yours, Something that's very personal that you didn't consent to having in a museum. And so with the temple, the underpinning concept is that if memory can be shared, then it leads to. It has so many other. It spins off lots of questions. So on one hand, memories of an act, memories of a historical nature, can be shared across the general consciousness. And that's what you want at the Museum of Human Memory or at the Institute, which does all the, you know, all the research and funds it and et cetera, et cetera. And then we have the Temple, which is very much for the. I have been separated from my family. I want to know, like, through my grandmother's or grandfather's eyes, what their experiences were like if I could sit down with one of my ancestors for just five minutes to ask them questions, if I could go back in time and get my great aunts recipes, like, that's the function of the museum. I mean, sorry, of the temple. So the temple has these personally important artifacts that have very little bearing on the way public history is created and is perceived. And that's why we need at least two institutions. I'm sure that if I had swung the camera 180 degrees the other way through the mists, we would find some other institutions. There are, for example, forensic memory hunters, so memory hunters that are involved with criminal justice, that kind of thing, for a third institution. And then there's the Academy. So, like, you know, there we go, multiple institutions, but two institutions that do wildly different things. And I hope that's obvious why. Like, it's obvious in the book why we need that, because I have gotten questions of that nature, like, why can't you just do it all in one institution? Like, that's just too much.

B (12:35)

Well, and I think having Kee so deeply involved in both as well, does such a good job of showing sort of the strengths and weaknesses of both. And her relationship with those institutions is definitely very intense, very personal, and changes throughout the book. So it's really lovely to sort of see those connections and the ways in which you're both critiquing and celebrating the ways that those institutions can work well and can work maybe less ideal as well.

C (13:03)

Yeah, she's sort of in an enviable position, being squarely in the middle of that Venn diagram of. I'm trying not to spoil.

B (13:12)

Yeah. But she, from the beginning is a hunter, which is essentially an archaeologist, and also is involved in the temple as well. So Key is a hunter, and all hunters have a guardian. And so her guardian is Vale. And I was wondering if you could speak a little bit about sort of the relationship or the dynamic between Hunters and Guardians, what you sort of wanted to play with there and how that comes across in the book.

C (13:36)

I initially just wanted a Sapphic bodyguard romance. And then I was like, well, how can we kick this up a notch? How can we increase the tension and the stakes here? And maybe it's because, like, through Bitter Medicine, I just enjoy, like, a workplace romance, though I would never in real life do anything like that. But it was compelling to me to pit, like, Key and Vale against each other, where these two Hunter and Guardian have to work very closely together. The Guardian will see the Hunter in their most sensitive moments, sometimes in their worst moments, sometimes when they don't even know who they are. And not only does the Guardian have to be therapist, psychologist, and support and defense for the Hunter, they also have to be the ultimate arbiter of whether or not this Hunter gets to live. So I was like, well, that's an amazing relationship. You have this deep friendship, or at least a deep working relationship with essentially your detective partner. But that person also has the power to kill you anytime they decide you're not okay anymore.

B (14:47)

And it does lead to such, like, fun sort of workplace intimacy, but also because they're traveling so much is more intimate than that. And, like, feels very slow burn as well, in a lovely way, because they've known each other for years at this point.

C (15:02)

Not every Hunter and Guardian has a romantic relationship. Very often there are working relationships and there are pairs that just don't work out and they separate. They get new contracts. Sometimes you can just bounce from Hunter to Hunter. So I don't want it to seem in the book that, like, every single pair is doomed to fall in love with each other. That's not simply not true, but also.

B (15:27)

Fun to watch it happen when it happens.

C (15:28)

Yes.

B (15:29)

Kee and Veyle also both have very complicated family dynamics that in many ways are quite different. Kee is coming from quite an affluent family that has a lot of responsibilities along with that. And Vale has a lot of sort of the financial responsibility of her family on her. I was wondering if you could speak a little bit about the nature of family dynamics or what you wanted to do with that in this book.

C (15:51)

Yeah, I wanted to highlight class differences because so often in fantasy we see a lot of race. And it's one of those decisions I made at the very beginning where I was like, okay, like, skin color discrimination is not going to be a motivating factor in anybody's life here. So how do we create the divisions in society? Oh, class and location, geographical location and class. So key being who she is, I thought, well, wouldn't it be fun to watch a Vanderbilt get into trouble, which is essentially, she's a Rockefeller, she's a Vanderbilt, she's a Carnegie, she's filthy rich. And her house would not be out of place in Newport, Rhode island, or at the Biltmore in Asheville. And I wanted to contrast how she moved to the world with how Vale moves to the world, who comes from a storm torn part of the country. She's poor, she has a huge family, and she's like the shining prospect who has to leave home at a very early age and go work and tried to send money back home. And to have her be in a position of deciding whether or not Kee gets to live was like, that was very good tension for me.

B (17:11)

Absolutely. You mentioned too sort of the climate implications. I think this novel does such a good job of existing in sort of a climate apocalypse space and of looking at the implication on poverty, the implication on knowledge and the ways that things are forgotten. And so that is definitely a really important theme as well.

C (17:31)

I read a lot of books for this. There's a bibliography in the back or a works cited, a reference list in the back. And one of the critical books I had read was Rising by Elizabeth Rush, a nonfiction, I think, Pulitzer runner up or something like that. She's incredible. Like, her writing is just so good. There were times I wanted to throw out this book because the writing was so poignant and, and moving. But at the same time, she highlights in the book the parts of America that have been, the coasts especially, that have been damaged by storms and may never recover because the people who could have stewarded the land are gone, or because corporations paved over various marshes and coastal areas and left them unable to recover after a hurricane. And I looked at that and I was like, well, you know, that's not very far away from what Vale is living through right now. Her family is not secure at any time, their house could get blown off the land that it's on. And that precarity leads directly to why she's so bullish on so many things. But, you know, I don't think I created anything new in her story. There are lots of people who are like Vale who have to, who live where they live. Their families don't want to move for one reason or another. They either don't want to or they can't move. And, you know, we don't see a lot of those stories. I'm not representing anybody because clearly this is fantasy. But you know, my family history, my family's from a tropical island and we do get typhoons quite often and mudslides and earthquakes and all sorts of things. So I wanted to bring a little bit of that climate awareness because I think people who don't live on islands and people who don't live on a coast don't understand how quickly things can get out of control. And you go from day to day not really thinking about the next disaster. And the mini disasters are just kind of like, okay, we'll deal with it. But at any time a huge disaster could happen and wipe everything out. Absolutely.

B (19:55)

And that precarity is done, I think, really well in the novel. And is that contrast in terms of class, in terms of location, is so central to Key and Veil's relationship and is just really beautifully done and I really enjoyed.

C (20:10)

Yeah, you could say that the climate disasters are a metaphor for various world events that happen over and over. War, displacement, you know, any human made disaster you can think of that erases family lines and breaks them up, that would be what climate is a stand in for. Could be what climate is a stand in for in this book.

B (20:31)

Yeah, absolutely. Another really central relationship is mentorship throughout. So both Key and Vale have these really central mentors. They're also in kind of, I think, an interesting place in their lives where they're sort of early 20s, so they have graduated from the Academy and they are not just starting their career. They're a little bit more established, but they're still quite young. I was wondering if you could speak a little bit about mentorship and sort of what you wanted to play with in terms of that in the story.

C (20:58)

Yeah, I wanted a real sins of the father deal in this book, but also, you know, commentary on how the violence visited upon us is generational and you have to make choices to break those cycles. And fortunately or unfortunately, you'll have to read the book to find out. Those cycles definitely get perpetrated. How do I talk about this without spoiling? I think that's the hard part. But with Genevieve and Burdock, they're both representative of their parts of the institution. Burdock as part of the Academy, representing the pinnacle of Guardians. Guardians would aspire to be Burdock versus Genevieve, who is the pinnacle for Hunters. She's the head curator at the museum. She's the Ur curator.

B (21:47)

Right.

C (21:47)

Like everything she does is amazing and she never makes a mistake. And the story is about how they have shaped both Key and Veil in their respective images with all faults intact. I think nobody does any critical thinking. But, you know, when you're that young, when you're 22 to 25, you know, I think in many ways, you're still a baby, and you look up to these huge figures that guided you through late adolescence, or in Vale's case, from when she was 14 all the way to when she was 22. She had Burdock's influence, a very strong influence. And it's really hard to think critically about such important figures to your life.

B (22:38)

There's also a really interesting mirroring, I think, as well, because Genevieve and Burdock were a hunter and guardian at one point as well. And so you sort of see the cast of characters is in many ways very focused, but you do a really excellent job of sort of mirroring out and letting us see these fractured possibilities and the differences between things throughout.

C (22:57)

Yeah. So Gen and Burdock would be the progenitors, I guess, you know, the originators of. In many ways, they start the story. The story begins at Genevieve and Burdock that we don't find out until much later why that is. And then if you look at Ging and Calamus, they're the foils. They are outsiders. For those who don't know, Ging and Cal are another pair of hunter and guardian at the museum. Ging is the head of all the hunters, and Calamus is his guardian. He's basically the big boss for all the guardians, and they are, on the outside, the perfect pair, but on the inside, they. They are definitely. They're decidedly not perfect. But of course, if you're Jane, you're like, well, I function within the system, and it is not personally affecting me, so I won't do anything about it.

B (23:59)

That is one of the many ways that people show up in the world.

C (24:03)

Yes. Yes.

B (24:04)

Thank you so much for writing this book and for taking the time to chat with me about it today. I've really enjoyed our conversation.

C (24:11)

Thank you for having me. Are there any final small questions you had for me regarding the Memory Hunters?

B (24:19)

I mean, I feel like you've touched on so much already. Definitely. The spine is based off of North America, at least somewhat, Right?

C (24:28)

Yeah. It's a little love letter to the Appalachian region and also the Piedmont. Because not a lot of stories, especially fantasy stories, are modeled off where I live, which is Atlanta. And I have gone up and down the Appalachians many, many times. I'm always a visitor. I'm never a resident. I respect these mountains. They're very old and they're very angry. They're crotchety mountains.

B (24:54)

There are some beautiful, angry mountains.

C (24:57)

They certainly are. You know, you're from North Carolina, so you understand, and we certainly don't whistle at night over there, but, yeah, with the iconography and the. The setting, I wanted to just pay homage to this part of the world, which gets looked over quite often in sci fi and fantasy.

B (25:18)

Absolutely. Thank you so much for taking the time.

C (25:21)

Thank you.

B (25:22)

I have been speaking with Miyet Tsai about her novel the Memory Hunters, out now from Erewhon Books. Thank you so much for listening, and please consider supporting the show by subscribing or leaving a review. I will speak to you soon. And for now, happy reading.