Michael W. Twitty, "Recipes from the American South" (Phaidon Press, 2025)

Summary

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Podcast Episode Summary

Podcast: New Books Network
Host: Dr. Nikaziotes
Guest: Michael W. Twitty
Episode: Recipes from the American South (Phaidon Press, 2025)
Date: October 21, 2025

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Overview

In this episode, Dr. Nikaziotes welcomes back culinary historian and award-winning author Michael W. Twitty to discuss his latest book, Recipes from the American South. The conversation weaves through Twitty’s approach to food as a vessel for history, identity, and healing, touching on his experiences as a historical interpreter, the spiritual and communal dimensions of Southern cuisine, and the ways food connects deeply to issues of representation, heritage, and resilience. Twitty also reflects on self-doubt, legacy, and his ongoing projects.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Historical Interpretation and Embodied Scholarship

[02:27–08:26]

• Immersive Experiences: Twitty discusses his practice of interpreting the foodways of colonial and antebellum enslaved people and free people of color, describing how cooking in historic spaces (from Virginia to Minnesota) physically and spiritually connects him to history.

  • “I interpret the way colonial antebellum enslaved people and free people of color cooked. I've even cooked in Minnesota... the navel of the world, where creation began.” (03:21)

• Emotional and Spiritual Costs: He describes the profound emotional responses—tears, laughter, even visions—arising from working in sites with deeply charged histories.

  • “Sometimes I can tell you it can be very—it's not every—they're not angels, they're ancestors.” (07:14)
  • “I pour libation every single time... And I give them thanks for letting me be their mouthpiece.” (07:18)

• Navigating Critique: Twitty addresses criticism that his interpretive work is mere reenactment, countering that his role is as a 21st-century teacher, not a “pretend” participant in the past.

  • “I'm not pretending to be an enslaved person... I'm a 21st-century scholar teaching you.” (05:53)

Wrestling with Self-Doubt and Building Legacy

[08:59–13:21]

• Daily Self-Doubt: Twitty relates his spiritual practices (both Jewish and African) for centering himself and combating imposter syndrome.

  • “Your spiritual bridge to the creator and to the spiritual world... If your Ori blesses you, then you’re good.” (09:36–10:00)

• On Legacy and Representation: He emphasizes the importance of legacy over fear, describing how representation can ignite confidence in young Black men, encouraging them to see themselves as creators and storytellers.

  • “Self doubt, imposter syndrome, fear. Y'all got to move. You got to move out of my cerebral apartment because you can't live here no more. This is legacy time.” (12:00)
  • “There is a light that comes on in their face when they ask me questions like, is that you on that book cover? Because I know what they really mean is, I can be on a book cover, I can write a book, I can tell a story and people will hear me and see me.” (13:08–13:18)

Defining the American South and Culinary Heritage

[14:02–18:35]

• Beyond the Confederacy: Twitty rejects definitions of the South rooted in Confederate ideology or narrow geography, instead emphasizing a broader, older, and more inclusive history.

  • “If you start the South with Confederate identity... you are leaving out millions of Afro descendants.” (14:18)

• Three "Mamas" of the South: He positions the Chesapeake, the Low Country, and the lower Mississippi Valley as foundational culinary and cultural centers.

  • “The Chesapeake, the low country, lower Mississippi... Those are three mamas.” (15:23–15:28)

• A Multicultural South: Twitty insists on the depth and range of influences—African, Indigenous, European, Asian, Middle Eastern, Latin American—highlighting centuries of blending and reciprocal influence.

  • “Often a lot of times you'll see in these books: Europeans, Native Americans, and Africans. In this book it's Indigenous, African, and European... But not forgetting, we're also Asian... Middle Eastern... Latin American.” (17:43–18:17)

• Intersection of “Soul” and “Southern” Food: He challenges the binary of “Southern food as white, soul food as Black,” insisting that the traditions are intertwined and dialogic over centuries.

  • “We've toed the line... which says Southern is white and soul is black, when actually they're in Venn diagram and in a 400-year-old conversation. And conversation is not surrender.” (18:28–18:47)

The Emotional and Historical Complexity of Southern Cuisine

[18:47–22:28]

• Dualities of Praise and Critique: Twitty articulates how Southern food evokes both celebration and deep critique due to its links to histories of violence, class, health, and race.

  • “Southern food is... a dance between praise and criti[cism].” (18:47)
  • “The plantation houses are the American Downton Abbey... it's like the churches in Cuba. The display of religiosity is beautiful. But how it was enforced in our people is not.” (19:16–19:29)

• Ancestral Knowledge and Wisdom: Through years of research and interpretation, Twitty has learned to trust patterns and intuition passed down through generations.

  • “When you do this work often, you begin to know the patterns. And don't let nobody tell me I don't know what I'm talking about.” (21:11–21:15)

The Lifecycle of Food in Southern Culture

[22:30–30:59]

• Food as Companion through Life: Drawing on both Black and broader Southern tradition, Twitty details the way food marks every stage—from birth and childhood learning, to rites of passage, marriage, community gatherings, elder care, and even death.

  • “The Southern life cycle of food, which you sketch out a quite powerful narrative of how food accompanies us throughout every stage of life...” (22:30)

• Learning through the Senses: Culinary knowledge is absorbed by watching, hearing, and feeling—by direct immersion in family and community kitchens.

  • “How do people learn things? They watch the elders... Number of pictures... of little Black kids... watching their elders work and cook.” (25:05–25:15)

• Food and Ritual: From “sip and see” (akin to Ghanaian “outdooring”), to barbecuing as a rite of manhood, to Southern Black funerals and the rituals of feeding mourners, food sustains body and spirit.

  • “If you ever want to go to fried chicken hell, go to a Black funeral in the South.” (28:06)

• Elderhood and Memory: Twitty’s personal stories about caring for elders through food ground the discussion in lived love and transmission.

  • “The last thing I did for my father was bring him some soup... I made her some barbecue... My mother said to me, boy that was so good I had to slap myself. Instead of slap your mama, you just had to slap myself.” (29:03–29:56)
  • “I don't have anybody left to teach me how to be an elder... So I go into food so much... because I am reminding myself about the values, the spirit, and the intention that got my people to elderhood.” (30:25–30:59)

Southern Herbalism and Healing Traditions

[31:15–34:59]

• The Role of Herbalism: Twitty explains the decision to include herbal recipes, such as teas, and the central place of indigenous and ancestral knowledge in Southern foodways.

  • “Herbalism... I had a recipe in the book for sassafras tea. Those of us in the know know safrol is a controversial chemical.” (32:17–32:27)

• Food as Medicine: He explains how foods with light toxicity were used to purge parasites—examples of old wisdom that remains valuable.

  • “Our ancestors... they were wormy as hell. Everybody had parasitic worms... the reason why they would have the sassafras tea... a little bit of toxicity... flushed those parasites.” (33:26–34:06)

• Shared Knowledge Across Groups: The healing traditions cross ethnic and regional groups—Scots-Irish, Cajun, Cherokee, Haitian—and this common ground is vital.

  • “That's a conversation right there about how we are bound together, even though sometimes we see each other in bubbles...and really we’re not.” (35:03–35:14)

Current Projects and Reflections on Food, Identity, and Conflict

[35:16–39:38]

• Upcoming Work: Twitty previews ongoing projects—his “Father Country” project and his efforts to complete a trilogy on Black and Jewish food and ancestry.

• On Food and Conflict: Drawing on his work Kosher Soul, Twitty unpacks the overlapping histories and cuisines of Mizrahi Jews, Palestinians, and others, emphasizing food’s power to reveal commonality even amidst profound suffering.

  • “You have to understand, Palestinian food... they're cousins to each other because of the Mizrahi... the key to understanding each other and having peace is respecting each other's culture.” (36:34–37:22)

• Empathy and Endurance: He openly acknowledges the toll of living in a painful, conflict-ridden world, yet returns to food and community as sources of meaning and resilience.

  • “The Germans have a word for it: Weltschmerz, the pain of existence in this world. But I keep going because I gotta cook for people. I gotta keep people nourished, man. I gotta feed them intellectually.” (39:13–39:31)

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Notable Quotes

• On Historical Interpretation:

  “I'm not pretending to be an enslaved person or a Black person living in that time. I'm a 21st century scholar teaching you.” (05:53, Michael Twitty)

• On Representation:

  “There is a light that comes on in their face when they ask me questions like, is that you on that book cover? ...I can be on a book cover, I can write a book, I can tell a story and people will hear me and see me.” (13:08–13:18, Michael Twitty)

• On Defining the South:

  “Sometimes the South is an adjective, sometimes it’s a verb. A lot of people think the South equals the Confederacy. Bump the Confederacy. If you start the South with Confederate identity... you are leaving out millions of Afro descendants.” (14:02–14:18, Michael Twitty)

• On Legacy and Doubt:

  “Self doubt, imposter syndrome, fear. Y’all got to move. You got to move out of my cerebral apartment because you can't live here no more. This is legacy time.” (12:00, Michael Twitty)

• On the Complexity of Southern Cuisine:

  “Southern food is... a dance between praise and criticism.” (18:47, Dr. Nikaziotes)
  “The plantation houses are the American Downton Abbey.” (19:20, Michael Twitty)

• On Food as Memory and Connection:

  “The last thing I did for my father was bring him some soup... my mother said to me, ‘boy, that was so good. I had to slap myself.’” (29:03–29:56, Michael Twitty)

• On Herbalism and Healing:

  “Our ancestors... they were wormy as hell. Everybody had parasitic worms... so a little tiny bit of toxicity... flushed those parasites from your body before they became intolerable.” (33:26–34:06, Michael Twitty)

• On Food and Peace:

  “The key to understanding each other and having peace is respecting each other's culture.... Food does not bring us together. We bring each other together. But food can be a means of telling stories that are otherwise more uncomfortable to tell.” (37:22–37:54, Michael Twitty)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Introduction, Michael Twitty’s Approach to Interpretation: 02:27–08:26
• Self-Doubt, Legacy, and Representation: 08:59–13:21
• Defining the South and Culinary Roots: 14:02–18:35
• Southern Cuisine as Praise and Critique: 18:47–22:28
• The Southern Lifecycle of Food: 22:30–30:59
• Southern Herbalism and Healing Traditions: 31:15–34:59
• On Food and Cultural Conflict, Ongoing Work: 35:16–39:38

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Memorable Moments

• Interpreting at Historic Sites: Twitty recalls cooking at Fort Snelling—the Dakota name “Bdote”—where he learned it was both a site significant for African American freedom and Indigenous suffering. The emotional and spiritual resonance drove him to tears. (04:07–05:50)
• Legacy and Eldership: His moving reflections on food’s role during the final days of his parents, tying kitchen memory to grief and gratitude. (29:03–30:59)
• On “Sip and See” and Life Cycles: Twitty connects African American “sip and see” celebrations to West African “outdooring” rituals, showing the persistence of African traditions. (23:46–24:10)
• On Cooking as Learning: Vivid depiction of children learning to cook by watching and working with elders, emphasizing the oral and sensory transmission of knowledge. (25:05–26:03)
• On Empowerment in the Kitchen and Beyond: Encouraging young Black men to claim authorship and visibility, fueled by seeing someone like themselves on a book cover. (13:08–13:21)
• On Food’s Power Across Divides: Advocating food as a vehicle for storytelling and cultural respect amid conflict. (37:22–37:54)

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Conclusion

Michael Twitty’s interview is as much a meditation on ancestry, community, and resilience as it is a conversation about Southern food. Through storytelling, ritual, and scholarship, Twitty places food at the nexus of identity, legacy, and resistance, inviting listeners to value the fullness and complexity of Southern—and American—history as manifested in its kitchens and on its tables.

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Transcript

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[Michael Twitty]

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[Michael Twitty]

Written by Liberty Mutual Insurance Company and affiliates excludes Massachusetts. Welcome to the New Books Network.

[Dr. Nakaziotes]

Hello everyone and welcome back to New Books in African American Studies, a podcast channel on the New Books network. I am Dr. Nakaziotes, the host of the channel. Michael Twitty is an award winning culinary historian and food writer based in Virginia. He appeared on the show in 2021 to discuss his book Rice, which was ranked one of the best cookbooks of that year by the New York Times. In 2022, Michael won the National Jewish Book of the Year award for his memoir, Kosher the Faith and Food Journey of an African American Jew. His new book is titled Recipes from the American South. Michael, it's so wonderful to have you on the show again. Welcome back to New Books.

[Michael Twitty]

Well, thank you so much. I'm glad to be here.

[Dr. Nakaziotes]

One of the things that I think is just so remarkable about you and what sets you apart from other food writers and culinary historians is that you just don't study the past, but you embody it. Particularly how you step into the shoes, quite literally and figuratively by being a historical interpreter at Colonial Williamsburg. How has that immersive form shaped your experience? Or what have you discovered from your work there that you couldn't have learned through the books and through the history alone.

[Michael Twitty]

So I've been blessed to, you know, be able to dip my feet in and out of the institution, to see people who made something out of nothing, then later on to grow in learning and in community with especially the black interpreters at colonial Williamsburg and the foodways interpreters. Very important. I interpret there and other places here and there, off and on. I've interpreted everywhere from Texas to New York to Philadelphia to Florida, Maryland to Kentucky. I interpret the way colonial antebellum enslaved people and free people of color cooked. I've even cooked in Minnesota. And you may ask what Minnesota? And like, yeah, Fort Snelling, which is actually called bdote, which is the Dakota name for the. The navel of the world, where the. Where creation began. And I have to say that that one was particularly, like, meaningful, because guess what? Enslaved black people and free people of color.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

That was the largest black community in.

[Michael Twitty]

The Minnesota territory, because a lot of people were brought there by officers, especially southern and border state officers. And I was there. And the next day, I had dinner thing with Sean Sherman. Sean Sherman is a native American chef, was a pioneer in bringing back indigenous food with other indigenous chefs. And I had just been told that the room that I was in was the quarters where Dred Scott's wife was enslaved.

[Dr. Nakaziotes]

Wow.

[Michael Twitty]

And she cooked in that roux.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

And then Sean and I are walking.

[Michael Twitty]

Around and explained what bdote meant. And that was years ago. And by the way, the conservative legislature in Minnesota, because they fought against it, and they still fighting against using that name, they only want Fort stone. They don't want to be called bdotic as well, which is, you know, ethnocide. And he says to me, this is where my great great grandmother was imprisoned by Abraham Lincoln. So if you don't know everybody, Fort Snelling was near the site where they lynched the Dakota warriors who were defending their homeland against disease, invasion, broken treaties, and murder and assault. And so here I am in the shoes of the Scott family. What case that defined African American existence? Right. Just three fifths of a person. That was Roger B. Taney of Maryland who said that. And then here I am also in a space where indigenous people were lynched from gallows not very far away, and where Sean's great, great, great. Something like that grandmother was imprisoned by the Union army. And I immediately broke down. People have feelings about history.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

It's another thing to have your soul.

[Michael Twitty]

Be charged by the spaces of our ancestors. I had a feeling when I was there after I learned all this I could feel them, I could feel the indigenous and the African ancestors. And I was just like, this is a lot. It's always very emotional for me, sometimes more than others. And I just want to say that there are people who in my career have been very critical of this. I'm not doing. I'm not pretending to be an enslaved person or a black person living in that time. I'm a 21st century scholar teaching you. I just happen to have the costume of that era, by the way, there are no such things as people wearing slave clothes.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

And so when you ask me this.

[Michael Twitty]

Question about what that does, it makes.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

I look at people who critique me.

[Michael Twitty]

And they make up stories about me. And this happens every so often. They make up stories about me. And there's. There's a sort of Stockholm syndrome towards white supremacy and Western civilization. And at the same time, this sort of self loathing. How could we ever been that? Why did so many of us stay like that?

[Co-host or Interviewer]

And I mean, I'm just like, if.

[Michael Twitty]

Y' all don't know how many times we resisted.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

What the kids say, put the battery in your back.

[Michael Twitty]

They make sure that you walk home with the message. And sometimes I can tell you it can be very.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

It's not every. They're not angels, they're ancestors.

[Michael Twitty]

The difference, because sometimes they're so understandably angry and hurt. And particularly with the work that I do when I'm in the kitchen or cooking, I pour libation every single time. And I pour libation at the beginning and I pour libation at the end. And I give them thanks for letting me be their mouthpiece. But I assure you, sometimes I've walked away and I just start bursting into tears and I'll go somewhere by myself and I can't stop crying. And there's been times when I can't stop laughing. And there have been times when I've done interpretation. And they come to me in my dreams and it's wild. I've even seen spirits in one particular plantation and I thought there were two other interpreters there. And I talked to them and they. I couldn't see their face. They were walking away. And I, I said, who were those ladies?

[Co-host or Interviewer]

And he said, oh, you saw them. So for me, it's a.

[Michael Twitty]

It's a very spiritual experience. I wish people who, who made judgments about what I do would understand that. They don't say that to my white colleagues, but this is important. I mean, all that time, people. I'm tired of hearing about enslavement. And now they've Taken all of it away from us.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

So it's up to us to maintain.

[Michael Twitty]

The story and control the story and. And never, ever, ever allow anybody else to have any authority over our narrative.

[Dr. Nakaziotes]

You just mentioned that they don't understand what you do. One of the questions that I ask every guest on the show, and I certainly asked it of you when you were on the first time. What self doubt are you dealing with? And then what's a moment that you are proud of, great or small? What are those things?

[Michael Twitty]

Currently, self doubt is a daily occurrence. I think that's why I enjoy praying the morning prayer in Judaism, because it reaffirms your senses, reaffirms your role on this planet, in this time, in this incarnation. But also, of course, in African spirituality, the most important manifestation of the divine in your life is your chi or your Ori. And to explain to folks, qi is Igbo, and I'm very Igbo. And Yoruba and Yoruba. And I'm also part Yoruba. Ori, your head, the spirit of your head.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

It's not a separate entity.

[Michael Twitty]

It's basically your spiritual bridge to the creator and to the spiritual world. And if your Ori blesses you, then you good. If your chi blesses you, then you good. Chi is, is your destiny. It's your fate, it's your path. Ori is related to your fa, which is your fate. Uh, well, the systems are connected. They're this, you know, they came from the same groups and split apart many hundreds of years ago. But I guess what I'm trying to say is that yes, we have self doubt, yes, we have imposter syndrome, yes, we have all these boundaries, but we've already been given the key. In Kabbalah, in Judaism, we call it keter, which is like Hinduism. It's your crown chakra. Okay? You already have the healing, you already have the blessing. You just gotta find it. You talk to your insides, your. Your soul, your spirit, and you talk to your concept of the divine, whatever that may be, and you figure out that I want you to bless me. Who is going to bless you? The part of you that is Bets in Hebrew, Betsella Melo Kim and made the divine image. Recently, I did something that I hope will be fruitful. I applied for the Guggenheim and I. Last year, I remember at this time I thought, I can't do this.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

I can't.

[Michael Twitty]

I can't. So I didn't. And now I did it. And hopefully good things will come from that, because that would be very sustaining in a Very troubling time for creators who, especially those creators of us who are black in this country. So I hope that is fruitful. I think it will be fruitful. I was told in the comment it would be fruitful if I did it. I made an effort. But I want people to understand something. I'm 48 years old. Being 48 and black and gay is a deep thing. I'm from Washington D.C. born and raised D.C. area my whole life, the DMV, my whole life. I already have 2020 friends who are not here and acquaintances. I'm an old man when it comes to DC queer men. I'm an old man at one point when it was just black men, period, from D.C. in the D.C. area. And I don't take that for granted. I have begun to think about this in these terms. Self doubt, imposter syndrome, fear. Y' all got to move. You got to move out of my cerebral apartment because you can't live here no more. This is legacy time. Legacy is not afraid. Legacy is not doubts. Legacy is nothing more than confidence and courage. And that's why our men get to a point where we start wearing cane gold hats and start spitting sunflower seeds. Because we, we can stand up in the truth that we have earned this spot. And I wanted to the young brothers, you don't have to wait. And some of them don't wait. And that's beautiful. But don't not wait because you don't want to show your emotions, your vulnerability or your fear, or you want to be cocky.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

Don't wait because guess what?

[Michael Twitty]

The sooner you get this memo and the sooner you get this medicine, you'll be in a much better place in your life journey.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

I love us more than I ever.

[Michael Twitty]

Have ever loved us before. And that's all of us. Our sisters included, our trans siblings, everyone, our non binary.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

I love all of us.

[Michael Twitty]

But I gotta tell you, my favorite people to reach out to as a teacher, as a writer are particularly young black men. There is a light that comes on in their face when they ask me questions like is that you on that book cover?

[Co-host or Interviewer]

Because I know what they really mean is I can be on a book.

[Michael Twitty]

Cover, I can write a book, I.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

Can tell a story and people will.

[Michael Twitty]

Hear me and see me and to.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

Me that's, that's worth my angel wings.

[Dr. Nakaziotes]

Representation matters.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

Yes.

[Michael Twitty]

And that's why it's so attached.

[Dr. Nakaziotes]

Michael, let's turn to this fantastic book that you have offered to the world. I mean, this will become a classic. This 431 page book. Thank you for. For devoting your time, your attention, your commitment to telling this part of American history. Michael, how do you define the US south, either geographically, culturally, and or historically?

[Michael Twitty]

All the above. And I would also say the. It's almost. Sometimes the south is an adjective, sometimes it's a verb. I'm glad you started right there. It's perfect. Because a lot of people think that the south equals the Confederacy.

[Dr. Nakaziotes]

Right.

[Michael Twitty]

Bump the Confederacy. Because obviously, if you start the south with Confederate identity, Confederate history, and Confederate culture, you are leaving out millions of Afro descendants.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

That's not our story. You mean to tell me that the.

[Michael Twitty]

South gets to be defined by four years of its 400 plus year history? So there's that perspective. There's also like the Mason Dixon line. Okay, great.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

So a lot of people might go.

[Michael Twitty]

Maryland looks like, as we natives say, Maryland.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

I say that because our vernacular matters too.

[Dr. Nakaziotes]

That's absolutely right.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

You know, I mean, if you go to. Listen, if you go to Charlottesville, Virginia, Jefferson's house called Monticello.

[Michael Twitty]

If you go to Georgia, it's Monticello.

[Dr. Nakaziotes]

Yes.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

If you go to Staunton, Virginia, they call it Stanton. So why can't I say Maryland.

[Michael Twitty]

Bring it and put some old bay on it.

[Dr. Nakaziotes]

Okay.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

And so I remind people that the Chesapeake is one of the three mamas of the South.

[Michael Twitty]

The Chesapeake, the low country, lower Mississippi.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

Valley centered on South Louisiana.

[Michael Twitty]

Those are three mamas. Why? Because first of all, they were highly populated by indigenous people. Second of all, they were ports where the European intrusion began.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

And third of all, they were absolutely.

[Michael Twitty]

The centers of American slavery. Now, not to say there wasn't New York or Philadelphia, but 90% of all African Americans have been the majority of their roots in the American South. And I want to say this. I am probably the first African American to write a sweeping treatment of Southern food.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

Not soul food, not black cooks, not.

[Michael Twitty]

Just this or that, but everybody. And I am absolutely devoted to centering us.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

Not because we did everything. I don't think that that exaggeration works for us. It.

[Michael Twitty]

Regardless of the category, but it cannot be denied that we are innovators, we.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

Are creators, and we are catalysts.

[Michael Twitty]

And if you want to be real about it, the reason why, I don't dig the parts of our community that talk about, you know, we're only descendants of slaves and foundational. Because African civilization is where our deep connection and our contributions come from.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

And of course, you know, I ain't.

[Michael Twitty]

Saying Africa as a country or Africa is one entity.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

There are 70,000 years connected to our Ancient past.

[Michael Twitty]

West Africans are one of the oldest branches of Homo sapiens. So when we tell that story of our. Of our ancestors, it's a deep one.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

And for me, that was front and.

[Michael Twitty]

Center in my treatment in this book of the American South.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

You know, one thing I'm so proud about?

[Dr. Nakaziotes]

What's that?

[Co-host or Interviewer]

I'm so proud that this is probably.

[Michael Twitty]

The first time a Southern cookbook has been published where the author says, my.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

Ancestors that I have proven by DNA.

[Michael Twitty]

The Wolof, the Yoruba, the Igbo, the Congo and Bundu Ashanti.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

Those aren't just names that throughout, those are in my blood. I know the human beings that are.

[Michael Twitty]

Walking on this planet today through which I have those connections. I'm an African and an African American.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

And my identity is sovereign.

[Michael Twitty]

How about that?

[Dr. Nakaziotes]

How about that?

[Co-host or Interviewer]

So, I mean, we're writing about then, of course, I make sure that indigenous communities, people understand. Indigenous communities in the south are still active, alive and present.

[Michael Twitty]

And I also make it known that, you know, the.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

Often a lot of times you'll see in these books Europeans, Native Americans and Africans.

[Michael Twitty]

And this book, it's indigenous, African and European.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

But not forgetting, we're also Asian.

[Dr. Nakaziotes]

Mm.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

We're also a Middle Eastern. We're also Latin American. And the Spanish self is older than the British South. Filipinos have been in the south for 250 years. There were people whose ancestry run to.

[Michael Twitty]

The blood of some of us, coming all the way from Madagascar, coming all the way from Java, coming all the way from South Asia, in the Indian subcontinent.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

That's a part of our history and we embody that. I just want to make that plain.

[Michael Twitty]

Because I think even say Southern cookbook versus Soul Cookbook, I think far too long we've toed the line of the.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

Mainstream which says Southern is white and.

[Michael Twitty]

Soul is black, when actually they're in Venn diagram and in a 400 year old conversation. And conversation is not surrender.

[Dr. Nakaziotes]

Sort of jumping off of that point. You describe Southern food as, quote, a dance between praise and criti.

[Michael Twitty]

Mm.

[Dr. Nakaziotes]

Why does Southern cuisine evoke such intense affection? On the one hand, it's laudable, and then on the other hand, there's deep criticism, particularly when you consider health, race, class and regionality and violence.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

Because it's built into it.

[Michael Twitty]

I mean, it's impossible.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

I mean, for God's sakes, the plantation.

[Michael Twitty]

Houses are the American Downton Abbey.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

And it's like, it's like the churches, like in Cuba. Churches are beautiful. The display of religiosity is beautiful.

[Michael Twitty]

But how it was enforced in our people is not. But at the same point in time, Santeria, it, you know, co opted the.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

Beauty of the colonist church. You asked a question only about my.

[Michael Twitty]

Work and what it's taught me. It's taught me to appreciate shadowness.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

But it's no different from life itself. It's no different from death and the nostalgia for the dead by the living. It's no different than the ambiguity of sexuality that we can become very embarrassed.

[Michael Twitty]

By it, have joy from it.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

What it, what is John Mason, who's a Yoruba priest? What do you call it? Yes, it. To mask is to embrace the ambiguity. Because who dances the mask? The living. But who do the living represent? The ancestors, the food shows. I mean, these are human stories. These are not just narratives of what you ate because you were hungry.

[Michael Twitty]

I went to, I did a little thing with Arlington House, which is better.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

Known as Arlington Cemetery, but it was.

[Michael Twitty]

Actually Lee Cousins plantation. And by the way, all the money was hers. It wasn't his. And so I was in the kitchen, which is a really strange and opulent kitchen. It wasn't like the common like separate house or cabin. And I go in there and they said, tell me about this kitchen.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

And it was almost like I was.

[Michael Twitty]

Being asked, as if I was like a seer.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

And I was like, well, let me.

[Michael Twitty]

Think about what this be like.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

And so one of the park rangers.

[Michael Twitty]

Is in there and I'm just like, oh yeah, over here there was a young man, he was beating the biscuits. And over there they were cooking on the hearth and they were hanging things up in the, in the stack. Do you know that 80% of what I said, the park ranger started to read back to me a historical description that I'd never seen before.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

But when you do this work, often you begin to know the patterns.

[Dr. Nakaziotes]

Yes.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

And don't let nobody tell me I don't know what I'm talking about. See, that's the thing.

[Michael Twitty]

I'm kind of glad I'm 48 and.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

Doing this because where the original fact.

[Michael Twitty]

Check doesn't have to prove everything I did this book is because Emily Takudis, one of the main editors at Fiden, was like, hey, could you help me find an author? I couldn't.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

Okay, let's, let's talk about a co author.

[Michael Twitty]

I couldn't.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

And then she's like, wait a minute.

[Michael Twitty]

I got the author I need right in front of me.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

And then I said to her back, I said, you know, you talk about self doubt, brother.

[Michael Twitty]

I mean, I was like, oh, what's that?

[Co-host or Interviewer]

You mean to tell me I've been.

[Michael Twitty]

An interpreter For 15 years.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

I've been a teacher and a writer.

[Michael Twitty]

And I've been researching food history and.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

Been, you know, writing articles.

[Michael Twitty]

And I'm actually one university away from completing my complete speaking tour of the Ivy League Brown. I think Brown might be very spicy because the slave trade connection.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

But the bottom line is I, you know, it's a fantastic feeling, brother, to wake.

[Michael Twitty]

You know, I am prepared.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

I'm ready, I'm blessed. And guess what? I'm blessed because I know I have a lot more to learn.

[Michael Twitty]

That's it.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

It's not just I know as I.

[Michael Twitty]

Have a lot more to learn.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

That is the beginning of wisdom.

[Michael Twitty]

Mm. Yeah.

[Dr. Nakaziotes]

Oop. Toward the end of the book, you have a section called the Southern Life Cycle of Food, which you sketch out a quite powerful narrative of how food accompanies us throughout every stage of life from birth to passing away. Could you walk us through that life cycle and share what it tells us about the communal role of food in Southern culture when you come into the world?

[Michael Twitty]

And I'm especially talking about the black Southern tradition, but of course, I can talk about everybody. Your mother is sitting there in an old school way. She's having teas and. And okra. You know, okra is very powerful food for the birth canal, for. Also for gestational diabetes, which can happen. And they're all. See, you know, Shafiya Monroe, an elder of mine who is a writer and thinker and also a doula, has finished a book about this. And I was so proud because I was just like, yeah, we did.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

These are these old school things that.

[Michael Twitty]

Kept our women healed from postpartum depression to body ailments, to the stress of giving birth.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

And then you had a sip and see and a sip and see.

[Michael Twitty]

And now that I think about it.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

Is kind of like the.

[Michael Twitty]

The African American version of what they call outdooring in Ghana.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

You know, where the baby is with the baby makes it past a week.

[Dr. Nakaziotes]

Yeah.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

Which is a universal custom, which is.

[Michael Twitty]

A real and scary and terrifying thing. You know, everybody should wake up going, oh, my God, I beat the odds.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

And so did my ancestors. Because to make it to childbearing in.

[Michael Twitty]

History is one of the most. Was one of the most incredible miracles. Lot of people didn't.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

Having said that, the sippancy, the adults.

[Michael Twitty]

Drink, everybody brings up with some food.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

Cause, you know, she don't feel like cooking, he don't feel like cooking. They don't feel like cooking. And they just Sit around and say.

[Michael Twitty]

Lord, that baby look just like so and so, right?

[Dr. Nakaziotes]

Yes.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

And then. So sometimes it's the mom and the daddy and who, but sometimes it's the.

[Michael Twitty]

Answers that's being called on. Huh? He got your granddaddy's face. Look at them eyes she got.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

That's great grandma and great Auntie so and so. And for me, knowing that I don't.

[Michael Twitty]

Get out my face when we don't have a culture, you know?

[Co-host or Interviewer]

And then from there, you learn how to cook. And I see.

[Michael Twitty]

So I look at this from the perspective of. Of what I've learned in West Africa. So, for example, the Yoruba word for learning and is, which means to. It's a sensual apprehension of the world.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

Are you seeing? Are you listening?

[Michael Twitty]

Are you hearing? How do people learn things? They watch the elders.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

The number of pictures that I've seen.

[Michael Twitty]

From back in the day of little black kids, our great grandparents, intensely watching their elders work and cook and do things. And I think about, oh, how did you learn to cook? Oh, yeah, I was in kitchen with Grandma.

[Dr. Nakaziotes]

Yes.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

And Grandma in the kitchen while my grandmother was.

[Michael Twitty]

Was retired for health reasons. But I would watch her, and I.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

Then all of a sudden, I would, okay, this is how you. This is how you snap beans. Then, of course, there's a day where.

[Michael Twitty]

The beans get pushed to you at the table.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

Now, you took off too much. You hear that sound?

[Michael Twitty]

Okay, you hear that?

[Co-host or Interviewer]

You see? You smell that?

[Michael Twitty]

That means the whatever in the oven's done.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

Do you hear it? You hear the steam?

[Michael Twitty]

I mean, you were taught to learn through your senses. So then you become very proud. And of course, you go according to your spiritual tradition or whatever else you.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

May be making a little something to.

[Michael Twitty]

Church or for somebody's birthday. For Southern black boys and white boys, barbecuing is a manhood thing. Both groups have that experience of barbecuing.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

With daddy and people who are not Southern.

[Michael Twitty]

I don't mean flipping some burgers. I mean cooking big pieces of meat for hours.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

And yet you learn from your elders.

[Michael Twitty]

About life, because after drinking and barbecuing.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

For six, nine, eight, ten hours.

[Michael Twitty]

Right? Right.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

And of course, there's marriage. The Cajun say, who is his mama? Are they Catholic? And can't she make a roo?

[Michael Twitty]

You know, Cajun country, they say, I.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

Went to a boudin place.

[Michael Twitty]

And the one thing they say about in the Cajun marriage vows is, I love you more than £10,000 of boudin.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

Boudin and sausage, everybody.

[Michael Twitty]

It's boudin rouge and boudin blanc.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

Boudin blanc is sausage made with rice.

[Michael Twitty]

And onions and green peppers and things with the trinity and the pope, garlic and so hunting, you know, going hunting.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

Boys and girls shooting at first deer or going fishing. And she brings in a bass or catfish, he brings in a trout, whatever.

[Michael Twitty]

Those are rites of passage that involve food. And we has kind of skipped around a little bit. But you know, the other southern way is can you make coffee, can you make biscuits in your fried chicken, can.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

You make light bread?

[Michael Twitty]

These are, these are part of your.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

Duties to pass on to your spouse and your children.

[Michael Twitty]

And then of course there's the little coffee group. Used to be at the general store, now is at the Hardee's. You know, family reunions, dinner on the.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

Grounds, Southern iftars during Ramadan, kosher soul, black Southern Shabbat dinners, Passover, traditional African.

[Michael Twitty]

Religion bembes and other gatherings where you're.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

Eating a mixture of African and Southern food and putting it on your altar.

[Michael Twitty]

To your answers in the Orisha, you.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

Know, it's all of those experiences and then when you go into the other.

[Michael Twitty]

World, they're making the potluck meals and oh my God, if you ever want to go to fried chicken, hell, go to a black funeral in the South.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

You get so much.

[Michael Twitty]

Oh my God.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

The number of pans of fried chicken.

[Michael Twitty]

We got during my grandmother's passing almost made me never want to eat fried chicken ever again.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

One of my favorite foods, I mean, I don't know, but it was the chicken that came through the door. It was a nine day ordeal of mourning, you know, but it taught me so much. I hate death.

[Michael Twitty]

Don't like death at all. The Yoruba say koshi ku, may there be no death, only life everlasting.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

I am just like. But I must tell you, I learned so much. And also old age. My.

[Michael Twitty]

My mom was not old at I answers, imagine when she passed. But I have to say this. My mother, my grandfather, my father before.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

My father and I saw to the.

[Michael Twitty]

Last two months before COVID shut us all down.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

Three months. And the last thing I did from.

[Michael Twitty]

My father was bring him some soup that I. A stew that I made. My mom was really dealing with some horrible things.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

She was at home and I brought her.

[Michael Twitty]

She says I miss Kentucky wonders. So what I did was I grew a shit ton of Kentucky wonders. And I remember the feeling of sitting there with my mother snapping those beans and the look of glorious happiness on her face. Or bringing her heirloom tomatoes. She said, I haven't tasted a real tomato in years. And I said, I'm draw you some. Some mortgage lifters and some brandywines and some leaves tomatoes. And one time my mom said to me, I brought her. I made her some barbecue. Six hours in the cooking and whatever. And my mother said to me, wait. And you know how you wish you had father? The voicemail.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

Mm.

[Michael Twitty]

My mother said to me, boy, that was so good. I had to slap myself. Instead of slap your mama, you just.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

Had to slap myself. And I mean all of that and the slick on your daddy's face. When you look at my mom's face.

[Michael Twitty]

That was the best apple crisp I ever had.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

My mom was tough.

[Michael Twitty]

She was not sunny. She was tough, but you know something, especially the kitchen stuff.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

But when I knew that I impressed my mother.

[Michael Twitty]

Yeah, I knew that I had made it and I didn't need to impress anybody else but my mom. And so that's what I mean by that life cycle.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

And now I'm. And one thing I'm talking to you.

[Michael Twitty]

About and I'm very emotional about is that I said this a while back and I want everybody to really hear me on this. I don't have anybody left to teach.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

Me how to be an elder. And so part of the reason why.

[Michael Twitty]

I go into food so much and memories around food and the kitchen table and that is a safe space above, is because I am reminding myself about the values, the spirit, and the intention that got my people to elderhood. Mm. So that's what I mean by that life cycle journey in the food.

[Dr. Nakaziotes]

Michael, I have two questions that I want to ask you. I have a lot more, but I think these two are a nice place to end on? The first one is you introduced readers to Southern herbalism.

[Michael Twitty]

Uh huh.

[Dr. Nakaziotes]

What was your reasoning for including this and how does it expand or even probably complicate our understanding of Southern culinary traditions? And the last question you mentioned a little bit earlier, which is what are some current projects that you are working on?

[Co-host or Interviewer]

Okay.

[Michael Twitty]

So herbalism and this.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

I didn't even know about Sinners when this.

[Michael Twitty]

When I finished that.

[Dr. Nakaziotes]

Ah.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

Which I think is so I.

[Michael Twitty]

God, I love that movie. I don't often go to movies, but.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

That I can't remember the last time I went to a movie and went to a movie twice. So Imax or the other format. I don't even know about movies. I had to listen to him talk.

[Michael Twitty]

About movie formats several times. But I got it. And I was sitting in the front room the first time and I was absolutely like, yes, this is what I want to see. You know, I imagined in my head Robert Ferris Thompson and Toni Morrison and August Wilson and Romare Bearden sitting next to me going, uh huh. That's it, that's what's up. And yeah. So herbalism.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

Why? Well, it's kind of started with a controversy. So I had a recipe in the.

[Michael Twitty]

Book for sassafras tea.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

And those of us who are in the know know that safrol is a.

[Michael Twitty]

Controversial chemical element in sassafras, in the roots.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

Some people say it's cancerous or carcinogenic, some people say it's harmless. Some people say, don't drink too much. Some people say, drink all you want. But Fiden was a little scared to put a recipe in there that might cause any liabilities.

[Michael Twitty]

So Dr. Jess Carbone, who is my like, walk along editor, who really helped me get this to fruition, she's like.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

Well, let's have another tea recipe in there.

[Michael Twitty]

I wasn't hot on the chamomile tea, but we did anyway because I was.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

Like, I have this, I have the.

[Michael Twitty]

A sample of the roots that my father's mother picked with me when I was a teenager.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

And I was like, I know how to do it. You go in the springtime, you get.

[Michael Twitty]

The samples at the ground and you scrape all the bark off and you dry them, then you chop them up.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

And you, you know, a little bit by little bit, there was never a lot.

[Michael Twitty]

And the reason why schizophrenicity was so important was because it, along with many.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

Other things that we ate, they, they did have a little toxicity to them.

[Michael Twitty]

But there's a good reason for that.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

Our ancestors, speaking of our, probably our great, great parents, it was probably the last generation, they were wormy as hell.

[Michael Twitty]

Everybody had parasitic worms because they were living in rural environments where they walk around barefoot. And also they were also these things.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

Got into the food. So everybody had like tapeworms and other parasitic things in them. And so the reason why he would have the size of rest tea and the pokeweed, you know, poke salad and all the other stuff, because a little tiny bit of toxicity or, or whatever.

[Michael Twitty]

In them flushed those parasites from your body before they became intolerable.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

And for those of us who had the temerity to watch the Monster Inside Me and other such shows, you know.

[Michael Twitty]

Why they did that every spring.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

And it wasn't just the vermifuge, this.

[Michael Twitty]

Notion of getting out that sub.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

And also they knew, they may not have been scientists, but they were absolutely clear on what Healing meant.

[Michael Twitty]

And as I become older and my.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

Body changes, I'm actually kind of grateful.

[Michael Twitty]

That I had these conversations with my grandmothers and grandfather and daddy about what heals you in nature and what you had a forage, how to wildcraft.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

That's life saving knowledge.

[Dr. Nakaziotes]

Yes. You know, yes.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

So that I felt it was really.

[Michael Twitty]

Important to acknowledge that because whether you Cajun, whether you're Scott's Irish, from Appalachia, whether you Cherokee, whether you're Haitian and from Florida, those healing traditions matter and they're. They're sent to the culture.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

Why? Things in common. But we also sometimes use the same plants in different ways.

[Michael Twitty]

That's a conversation right there about how we are bound together, even though sometimes we see each other in bubbles and in boxes and really we're not.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

So new things.

[Michael Twitty]

Listen, you know, I'm praying on the.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

Bead on as the answers used to.

[Michael Twitty]

Say about this Guggenheim thing.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

So y' all pray for me.

[Michael Twitty]

Wish me luck. But I'm also working on a. I'm working on a project called Father country and I'm also trying to complete my trilogy of books, Cooking Gene, African American Southern Ancestry and Food, West African Ancestry and Food, Kosher Soul, Being Black and Jewish in America and Food and the Global Journey of Blacks and Jews in Terms of food and everything else. By the way, I'm really proud of this Kosher soul. Deliberately, I went out of my way to say, and ladies and gentlemen, Jewish history is really old and really global and we have all sorts of traditions blending. But also we need to recognize that whether you're a Kurdish or Iranian, a Persian or Turkish or Arabic or Berber, Amazigh and so many other ethnic groups, these cultures have been blending and mixing for so long that sometimes the arguments that we have over who owns what or who invented what are not as important as what those foods mean to you. You have to understand, Palestinian food is not. They're cousins to each other because of the Mizrahi, meaning Eastern facing Jewish communities, the Sephardic Jewish community. But also Palestinian food has regional differences.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

Not only are the Palestinians a people.

[Michael Twitty]

And a culture, but there are certain regionalisms, like for example, God bless the people of Gaza. And I say this because I am absolutely angry and upset about the impact of terrorism in the region and certainly want our people back. And at the same time, I also understand the futility and cruelty of disproportionate violence and war and the number of children and people of all types and ages who have suffered under this regime they currently live under. And. But you got to understand the people aren't just being killed. The culture, too, because that cuisine is based on the fact you live by.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

The sea, whereas in the west bank.

[Michael Twitty]

There'S another kind of cuisine.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

So, you know, the key to understanding.

[Michael Twitty]

Each other and having peace is respecting each other's culture. And I know that's a very. It's a very complicated because it's all over the place. But having said that, I even talk about in the bibliography, Palestinian cookbooks and Israeli cookbooks and Jewish cookbooks from America and African American Caribbean cookbooks, so people can. Can actually read other authors and understand their perspective, where we're coming from, and understand that we do have a lot in common, even though these controversies and. And, and conflicts have kept us in deep pain for a very long time.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

Food does not bring us together.

[Michael Twitty]

We bring each other together. But food can be a means of telling stories that are otherwise more uncomfortable to tell than we know. And I hope, if nothing else, I hope that my work brings people together. And I had a amazing conversation. I did. I did two kosher soul sold out dinners in LA when I was living in LA for a few months. And I remember one of the best conversations was a friend of Kalis, and she had her mom, her dad was black, her mom's Palestinian. And we had the most amazing conversation post October 7th about our connections and what needed to happen. And I'm exhausted.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

I'm exhausted with the pain in the world.

[Michael Twitty]

I am an empath and I know the value of people's souls. And I'm tired, brother. And I'm trying to find ways to renew myself. My garden, my animals, my spouse, my family, my friends, travel some. I mean, it's not normal.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

It's not normal for any of us.

[Michael Twitty]

But especially for those of us who feel and know to feel and feel. No, it's hard out here. And I'm not comparing myself to anybody starving, anybody in Congo or Sudan or Ukraine, someone waiting for a relative in Jerusalem or somebody praying that a relative stays alive in Gaza City or somebody in Chicago.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

Right now I can't. It's hard for me not to feel the absolute.

[Michael Twitty]

The Germans have a word for it. Weltschmerz, the pain of existence in this world. But I keep going because I gotta cook for people. I gotta keep people nourished, man. I gotta feed them intellectually.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

And I have to also acknowledge it's not.

[Michael Twitty]

I can't do every bit of the.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

Work because that's impossible. But loving everybody is not.

[Dr. Nakaziotes]

You have fed us today, Michael. Thank you Michael Twitty is an award winning culinary historian and food writer based in Virginia. His new book is Recipes from the American south, published by Fiden Press. Michael, thank you so much for being on the show again. And every time you have come on, I walk away from the conversation more enlightened, more nourished. Special thanks to Kendall Grant and Jill Browning. I'm your host, Dr. Nikaziotes. You thank, thank you for listening, Michael. I so appreciate it.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

Thank you so much.

[Michael Twitty]

It's really been important to me and I'm grateful, very grateful.

[Dr. Nakaziotes]

Same here. Likewise.