Podcast Summary: Michelle Wang, "The Art of Terrestrial Diagrams in Early China"

Podcast: New Books Network / New Books in East Asian Studies
Host: Sarah Bramau Ramos
Guest: Michelle Wang
Episode Date: October 14, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode features an engaging interview with Michelle Wang, author of The Art of Terrestrial Diagrams in Early China (University of Chicago Press, 2023). Wang and host Sarah Bramau Ramos discuss the earliest known corpus of Chinese maps found in 4th to 2nd century BCE tombs, exploring their materiality, function, and significance. The conversation thoughtfully unpacks how these objects went beyond mere representation or mapping, shaping worlds for both the living and the dead, and challenges common assumptions about what a "map" is and does.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Michelle Wang’s Path into Early Chinese Art & Archaeology

[02:51–05:15]

• Wang’s interest in art history began in high school; initially focused on Ming-Qing calligraphy.
• A transformative moment came upon discovering a Western Han bronze wine vessel, which spurred her to shift scholarly focus almost two millennia earlier.
• The transition to early China was challenging but supported by mentors and peers; this background informs Wang’s current research approach.

Quote:
“I became so obsessed that I went to my advisor...and I said, if I can move my research back 1800 years so that I could basically learn everything there was to learn about this vessel. And she was very supportive.”
— Michelle Wang [03:36]

2. Origin and Development of the Book Project

[05:41–09:03]

• Wang’s process began during her faculty tenure, sparked by a calming routine of reading old archaeological reports.
• A particular drawing from the Fangmatan site captivated her, motivating deep inquiry—a familiar pattern in her scholarly journey.
• The realization that not many such maps survived led her to conceive of a focused monograph, grappling with the tension between known textual references to maps and the paucity of extant artifacts.

Quote:
“I thought, there is no way that there are only this many [maps] produced in early China... But why are there so few that have been excavated?”
— Michelle Wang [07:49]

3. Methodological Approach: The Importance of Materiality

[09:31–12:16]

• Noted the richness of Chinese scholarship on early maps, but observed a lack of focus on their physical creation.
• Firsthand examination at the Gansu Jianbo Museum revealed the expressive brushwork and tactile qualities of these objects, connecting Wang’s interests in calligraphy with the study of maps.

Quote:
“I got to sit there and I saw how every single one of those brushstrokes were painted... It was a really amazing experience.”
— Michelle Wang [10:46]

4. Challenging Conventional Notions: Maps as Diagrams

[13:22–16:49]

• Core assertion: “maps are diagrams” (地图是图), a statement that, while simple, has profound implications for interpreting early Chinese maps.
• In early China, the terms for “map” and “diagram” (tu) were interchangeable; thus, the distinction drawn in modern scholarship between maps and diagrams doesn’t apply.
• Wang draws inspiration from scholarship emphasizing the diverse forms and functions of diagrams in Chinese technical and visual traditions.

Quote:
“In early China, that distinction between a map and a diagram don’t exist because the terminology is basically the same. They were all called tu, or a diagram.”
— Michelle Wang [15:33]

5. Rethinking What Makes Something "Art" or "A Map"

[18:52–25:39]

• Discussed the philosophical shift from asking “what is a map?” to “when is an object functioning as a map?”—paralleling Nelson Goodman’s work on art and objects.
• These diagrams functioned not only as maps but also as ritual or status objects and architectural plans, depending on context.
• This fluidity of function resists singular definitions; the same object could create multiple “worlds” for its users.

Quote:
“It’s important...to show that these drawings, I call them drawings, function as maps...but they can also function as different things.”
— Michelle Wang [22:09]

6. Representation, Accuracy, and Process-Oriented Cartography

[25:39–32:19]

• Wang underscores a methodological shift among historians of cartography away from Eurocentric, accuracy-obsessed models of maps.
• Early Chinese maps may not meet Western criteria for accuracy, but they were not designed with mimesis in mind.
• For example, Ma Wangdui diagrams appear map-like, yet attempts to impose scale or symbolic meanings sometimes obscure their actual use, which could include ritualistic or prognostic functions.

Quote:
“[Cartographic] accuracy was not really what they were after...it also serves this other function as an inauspicious omen, right? And that doesn’t depend on cartographic accuracy at all.”
— Michelle Wang [29:45]

7. Fresh Interpretations and Material Analysis

[32:19–44:51]

• Rather than imposing new interpretations, Wang sought to synthesize diverse existing scholarship, especially from China and Japan, and refocus attention on the material making of maps—how they were cast in bronze, painted on silk, or inked on boards.
• Example: The regularity of mountain motifs on the Ma Wangdui diagrams suggests processes akin to embroidery or lacquerware, revealing shared visual cultures across media.
• The fact that many maps are drawn on both sides of wooden boards or oriented according to water flow highlights how form, function, and materiality combine in meaning-making.

Quote:
“...when you realize that’s the case, you also realize that there’s a certain efficiency embedded in this process...the water flow also follows the direction of the brush stroke.”
— Michelle Wang [43:13]

8. Lessons and Implications for Map-Reading—Then and Now

[45:32–48:55]

• Maps are multifunctional, manipulative, and ideological—even in digital form today. Wang points out that modern subway maps, which everyone accepts as “distorted,” offer parallels for historical maps’ relationship with truth and representation.
• Encourages readers to understand ancient maps within their own context and to appreciate their flexibility and multidimensionality.

Quote:
“Maps can do a lot of things and they can appear in all kinds of media...the more we are aware of how maps can do all sorts of things all at once, the more careful we can be in both using them, but also the more interesting they become as objects of study.”
— Michelle Wang [45:34]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “A ditu is a tu—which in English would be a terrestrial diagram. As a diagram, it sounds a bit strange...But in early China...the terminology is basically the same.”
  — Michelle Wang [14:39]

• “What Goodman is saying generally is that anything from a vase to a line on the vase can function in all different ways. And depending on how it functions, it becomes something different.”
  — Michelle Wang [21:00]

• “There is something very magical, I think, about being able to see how someone so long ago was able to make something...the people who actually made these objects don’t appear in text, and there’s really no way of knowing anything about them beyond what they make.”
  — Michelle Wang [39:45]

• “I know that there are a lot of people out there who have those interests. But yeah, to see that maybe they’re not so different from these early examples. It’s a thinking exercise, I guess.”
  — Michelle Wang [47:49]

Important Timestamps

• 03:05 – Wang’s path and shifting periods/mediums.
• 05:41 – Genesis of the book project.
• 09:31 – Challenges in shifting to map studies; material studies approach.
• 13:22 – “Maps are diagrams”—defining terms.
• 20:09 – Adapting Goodman’s framework for art/objects.
• 25:39 – Mapping, representation, and accuracy.
• 32:19 – Bringing together disparate scholarly approaches; embroidery example.
• 39:13 – Brush-and-ink drawings and material encounters at the museum.
• 45:32 – Modern map parallels; subway maps and user expectations.

Final Thoughts & Future Directions

Michelle Wang reiterates the importance of approaching maps (ancient and modern) as complex, polyvalent objects whose meaning and function depend on context, materiality, and use. She encourages expanding our understanding beyond rigid categories to consider what maps do—ritually, materially, ideologically. In closing, Wang hints at returning to and integrating her longtime interest in Chinese calligraphy, underscoring the continuing thread of material attentiveness in her work.

For Listeners

This episode provides an illuminating, multidisciplinary view of early Chinese maps, challenging conventional boundaries between art, diagram, and function. Wang’s insights will be valuable not just for historians of China, but for anyone interested in how we visualize, shape, and interpret the worlds—real and imagined—on paper, silk, or screen.