Podcast Summary

Podcast: New Books Network – New Books in Game Studies
Episode: Miguel Sicart, "Playing Software: Homo Ludens in Computational Culture" (MIT Press, 2023)
Air Date: March 2, 2026
Host: Rudolf Indust
Guest: Miguel Sicart

Episode Overview

In this episode, host Rudolf Indust talks with Miguel Sicart, professor at the IT University of Copenhagen, about his book "Playing Software: Homo Ludens in Computational Culture." The conversation explores how play operates at the core of our interactions with digital systems, why digital play is fundamentally distinct from analog play, and how the concept of play can help explain the dynamics of technology—from video games to spreadsheets to AI chatbots. Sicart discusses the provocative nature of his book, which aims to spark disagreements and revolts, and shares personal anecdotes, theoretical foundations, critiques of established play theory, and reflections on the dangerous and emancipatory aspects of play in computational culture.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Sicart’s Background and the Rebranding of His Research Center

• Sicart introduces himself as Galician, living in Copenhagen for 21 years, and head of the new Center for Digital Play at the IT University of Copenhagen.
• The renaming from "Computer Games Research" to "Digital Play" reflects a shift from focusing on games as liminal objects to play as a liminal activity—more inclusive of diverse research interests (AI, interaction design, digital culture).
  • "Instead of focusing on a liminal object as the thing that brings us together, we are going to focus on a liminal activity, Play..." (06:45)

2. Personal Gaming Taste and Influential Platforms

• Sicart names FIFA (10–18) (multiplayer), Shadow of the Colossus (PS2), Spelunky, and the Nintendo DS as particularly influential.
• Currently, he plays Slay the Spire daily, crediting the Nintendo DS as foundational to his taste in games.
  • "Since March 2020 I've played Slay the Spire at least once a day... that's my go to both favorite game and favorite ritual." (09:50)

3. On “Fun” and Cultural Contexts

• Sicart reflects on how a year spent in Santa Cruz, California changed his appreciation of "fun," recognizing both its liberatory and exclusionary (privilege-bound) aspects.
  • "The promise of fun justifies a lot of the things that are wrong with California, with the United States, and also with some of our broader Western ideologies." (13:50)
• Contrasts the hedonistic vibe of Northern California with that of Denmark, concluding that climates and cultures shape one's sense of seriousness and play.

4. Provocation and Theory: Decentering Classic Play Theories

• Sicart positions his book as deliberately provocative:
  • He argues for decentering classic play theorists like Huizinga and Caillois in favor of thinkers like María Lugones and Christina Knippart-Eng.
  • Key provocation: In digital societies, make-believe (mimicry) is more foundational than agonism (competition), counter to classic theory.
    • "In the digital societies in the information age, make believe is more important than agonism." (21:50)
• Pushes for the study of digital play as distinct from analog play because the affordances and consequences of software are fundamentally different.

5. The Information Age and Software Agency

• The "Information Age" describes a period where digital systems are ubiquitous, shaping and framing societal experiences (27:20).
• Core claim: “Playing” is the principal way humans make sense of software.
  • "Playing is a way of making sense of what software does to our world." (29:14)

6. Mutual Shaping of Agency: Human and Software

• Sicart describes the "entanglement" of human and software agency in digital play.
  • Generative AI is a prime example: prompts in ChatGPT require us to adapt to its responses while it also adapts to our queries.
  • "The prompt itself, the output of the prompt, shapes what we are looking for. By writing a prompt, we are testing the boundaries of what it can do with the reply." (32:10)

7. Academia, Essays, and the Play of Ideas

• Current university assessment methods (essays) may lack playfulness and creativity, which generative AI both exposes and challenges.
  • "Maybe by forcing this kind of mechanistic output...what we've lost is the play of learning and the play of ideas." (36:00)
• Suggests universities might need to teach students how to play with AI and ideas instead of only generating formulaic outputs.

8. María Lugones and Playfulness as World-Traveling

• Sicart draws heavily on María Lugones’ concept: "playfulness as world-traveling"—entering others’ worlds to meet in their otherness with a loving, vulnerable, and creative attitude.
  • "We travel to the world of software agency with the intention of relating to it and playing with it." (41:11)
• Argues for an ethos of digital play centered on mutual respect and creativity rather than rigid rule-following.

9. The Dark Side of Play: Exploitation and Inequality

• Warns that when digital systems use play’s logic for control and exploitation (e.g., Amazon warehouse gamification, conspiracy theories), play can perpetuate inequality.
  • "The logic of the capitalist is very much games and play driven... We are going to exploit you. But wait, the exploitation is actually a game." (47:15)
• The danger comes when software rewards obedience rather than agency, turning play into a tool of oppression.

10. Influence of "Metagaming"

• Credits Stephanie Boluk and Patrick Lemieux’s book Metagaming (2017) as formative, emphasizing the difference between games and software.
  • "Video games are not games. They are totally different objects—video games. What they really are is software we play with." (52:00)
• Suggests future research might develop a “meta-playing” approach to subvert and creatively engage with software agency.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On the Shift from "Game" to "Play":

"Instead of focusing on a liminal object... we are going to focus on a liminal activity, Play... That seemed like a more coherent way of both doing a research center, but also looking at phenomena in our life and in our societies that are not restricted to games, but that can be explained through the concept of play."
– Miguel Sicart, 07:20

On the Provocation of Digital vs. Analog Play:

"By claiming that digital play is different than analog play... we can actually do more in both game and play studies."
– Miguel Sicart, 24:25

On AI and Agency:

"When we interact with, when we play with software... we need to think about it as an entanglement where agencies get entangled together and they shape each other."
– Miguel Sicart, 31:21

On AI, Essays, and Academic Routines:

"If ChatGPT can do the bullshit that we have been asking our students to do, then maybe we are not asking them to play with ideas..."
– Miguel Sicart, 36:10

On Lugones and World-Traveling:

"Playfulness is world traveling. That is traveling to others worlds to meet with them there and to establish a relation there... we create this new world, this new situation where my agency and the software's agency get entangled together."
– Miguel Sicart, 41:00

On Play as Exploitation (Amazon Example):

"We are going to exploit you. But wait, the exploitation is actually a game. You like playing, you like doing things with rules, and because you like doing things with rules... we are not exploiting you..."
– Miguel Sicart, 47:18

On Metagaming and Playing Software:

"What metagaming showed me is that actually when we are playing video games, we are not playing games. We are interacting with software in a specific way. And both our concept of games and our concept of play do not fit well with what software does in the world."
– Miguel Sicart, 52:20

Important Timestamps

• 1:04 – Introduction to guest and book’s main themes
• 2:31 – Sicart’s academic journey & personal background
• 6:00–8:30 – The rationale for shifting from "game" to "play" in research center naming
• 8:54 – Sicart’s favorite games & gaming history
• 13:22–15:52 – Perspectives on “fun” in California vs. Denmark; privilege and play
• 18:39–24:00 – The book’s goal: sparking disagreement, rejecting certainty, decentering classic theorists, and advancing new frameworks (Lugones, Knippart-Eng)
• 27:20 – Defining the Information Age and why play is essential to making sense of software
• 31:16 – The entanglement of human and software agency; generative AI examples
• 36:00 – Critique of academic routines; importance of playing with ideas
• 38:31–46:16 – Deep dive on Lugones’ concept of world-traveling, playfulness, and the ethos of digital play
• 46:58 – How play and software can become tools of exploitation (Amazon gamification, conspiracy theories)
• 51:11–54:00 – Discussion of Boluk & Lemieux’s Metagaming and its influence on Sicart’s thinking
• 57:17 – What Sicart is playing next (dating sims, Vampire Survivor, indie games)

Closing Thoughts

Miguel Sicart’s "Playing Software" is a deeply reflective, theory-driven, and intentionally provocative intervention in play and game studies. Moving beyond classic frameworks, Sicart calls for a radical reevaluation of how we study play in an age saturated by software, urging us to recognize both the emancipatory and exploitative dimensions of digital play. Not just a critique, Sicart’s work sketches an “ethos” for digital play based on mutual agency, creativity, and loving world-traveling—pushing listeners and scholars alike to reflect on how they engage with, and are shaped by, contemporary software.

Recommended Further Reading:

• María Lugones: Playfulness, "World-Traveling, and Loving Perception"
• Stephanie Boluk & Patrick Lemieux: "Metagaming" (2017)
• Aaron Trammell: "Repairing Play"