Podcast Summary: "Between Two Rivers: Ancient Mesopotamia and the Birth of History" with Moudhy Al-Rashid (New Books Network, 16 Oct 2025)

Main Theme & Purpose

This episode centers on Moudhy Al-Rashid’s new book, Between Two Rivers: Ancient Mesopotamia and the Birth of History (W.W. Norton, 2025). The host, Nicholas Gordon, discusses with Al-Rashid how a mysterious room in the city of Ur—possibly the world’s first museum—inspired a sweeping exploration of Mesopotamian civilization. The conversation covers archaeology, writing, mythology, science, divination, women’s roles, and how this ancient history continues to resonate today.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The “Museum” at Ur & Its Inspiration

• The book’s foundation is an archaeological find: a room in Princess Enigaldi-Nanna’s palace at Ur, filled with artifacts spanning 1500 years (03:18).
  • Objects included a boundary stone (1100s BCE), clay cones and bricks from various kings, and a "museum label" describing an old artifact (04:00).
  • The label described a brick as being there “for display” (in Akkadian, tamartu), prompting debate about whether this was the earliest museum.
• Notable quote:
  "What I love about that is that...they had a kind of equivalent to, like a Yelp review that was zero stars...it really shows for me that not that much has changed." — Moudhy Al-Rashid (15:53)
• The room’s contents serve as “doorways” into Mesopotamian life—warfare, kingship, the role of women, and more (06:49).

Princess Enigaldi-Nanna: High Priestess & Collector

• Enigaldi-Nanna held the powerful role of high priestess to the Moon God Sin (07:16).
  • This position was reserved for royal women, divinely chosen, and held for over 2000 years.
  • Her palace reflects both personal history and millennial traditions, though much about her life remains unknown.

Writing in Cuneiform: Technique & Impact

• Cuneiform is a complex system used for multiple languages (Sumerian and Akkadian), not an alphabet but a system where a sign could mean a word, syllable, or idea (11:07).
  • Written with a reed stylus on clay (“cuneus” = wedge in Latin).
  • Over 3,000 years of history captured in these records, preserving everything from statecraft to intimate daily life.
  • Initially limited to scribes and scholars, literacy expanded in later periods to merchants and administrators.
• Memorable moment:
  "[I found] a letter where the writer is basically saying, why do I wag my tail like a dog for you? I've written to you three times and you still haven't replied to me. So it's like being left unread, but in clay." — Moudhy Al-Rashid (13:45)

Temporal Breadth: The Vastness of Mesopotamian Eras

• The host notes that the time between Mesopotamian empires easily spanned 1,000 years—much more varied and stretched than modern conceptions often allow (16:44).
• Al-Rashid illustrates: From early cuneiform (~3350 BCE) to its last dated tablet (~80 CE), there’s more time between the first and last than between that last tablet and today (17:41).
  • Sumerians (3000 BCE), Akkadians (2300 BCE), Babylonians & Assyrians (2000 BCE onward), Persians and Greeks (from 500 BCE).
  • Despite differences, all shared cuneiform and certain cultural touchstones, like kingly responsibilities for the vulnerable.

The Epic of Gilgamesh: Enduring Literary Power

• The Epic of Gilgamesh, dating back to early written records, is pivotal in both ancient and global literary history (22:56).
  • Story of a king transformed by love, loss, and the quest for immortality—only to learn true immortality lies in service to community.
  • Themes: leadership, grief, facing mortality, the value of communal legacy.
• Notable quote:
  "Living your life in a way that meaningfully serves others is the answer...That idea that human life is collective and not individual and that that is eternal life, to me, that's a really moving lesson." — Moudhy Al-Rashid (25:30)

Science, Medicine, and Divination

• Medical texts are a fascination for Al-Rashid—thousands of cuneiform tablets detail everything from mood disorders to childbirth (26:40).
  • The sciences (especially astronomy) evolved from signs and omens to rigorous observation and early mathematics (27:28).
  • Example: By 500 BCE, Babylonians invented the zodiac and maintained detailed astronomical diaries.
• Divination was integral: kings and learned scholars read unprovoked signs (eclipses, water color, birthmarks) and performed provoked omens (especially reading sheep livers) (31:54).
  • Knowledge was secretive, passed only to the trained, and interpreted as an ongoing conversation between gods and people.

Women’s Roles: Power & Presence

• Women’s presence looms large in the sources, although society was patriarchal (35:03).
  • Women served as business owners, merchants, weavers, even medical practitioners and writers.
  • Notably, Enheduanna, the earliest named author in history, was a high priestess (08:33).
  • Stories exist of powerful queens, like Nakia, who was called by titles usually reserved for kings.
• Notable quote:
  "Assyrian queens were associated with scorpions because of how fiercely they defended their young." — Moudhy Al-Rashid (37:19)
  • Sources also capture the voices or at least experiences of enslaved women, such as La Tubashini, who fought for her children’s freedom.

Mesopotamia’s Legacy Today

• The influence of Mesopotamian history endures in the Middle East and beyond (39:08).
  • Modern protest art and public monuments reference cuneiform and ancient motifs.
  • These sites and stories continue to inform identity, legitimacy, and public imagination.
• Key reflection:
  "There are some pieces of wisdom that we can't just get in a lifetime. And we get that really from the millennia of stories that come before us, of mistakes, of learnings, of ideas." — Moudhy Al-Rashid (39:58)
  • History, for Al-Rashid, enriches collective understanding and offers lessons, even as cultures and religions radically change.

Notable Quotes by Timestamp

• On the “museum” at Ur:
  "Each of the objects, I feel, offers a really interesting way into some aspect of life in Mesopotamia." (05:58)
• On the continuity of written complaint:
  "That they had a kind of equivalent to, like a Yelp review that was zero stars." (15:53)
• On the time span of cuneiform culture:
  "There is almost 3,500 years between that last tablet and the very first one, which is a greater period of time than there is between that last tablet and us." (17:44)
• On Gilgamesh:
  "Living your life in a way that meaningfully serves others is the answer." (25:30)
• On astronomy and science:
  "It's an effort at empirical observation, mistake making, course correcting and then committing a kind of set pattern to writing..." (27:43)
• On divination:
  "People understood the world around them as a kind of cuneiform tablet, as a tablet of messages from the gods..." (33:38)
• On women’s presence in the sources:
  "Women did do all sorts of stuff in addition to being mothers and wives." (35:05)
• On the importance of history:
  "I think there are some pieces of wisdom that we can't just get in a lifetime. And we get that really from the millennia of stories that come before us..." (39:58)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• 03:18 | Archaeological discovery at Ur and the “ancient museum”
• 07:16 | Princess Enigaldi-Nanna and her historical context
• 11:07 | Cuneiform: writing system, literacy, daily life
• 16:44 | The vast time spans between Mesopotamian eras
• 22:56 | The Epic of Gilgamesh's significance
• 26:40 | Mesopotamian science, medicine, and astronomy
• 31:54 | Divination, omens, and religion
• 35:03 | The roles and agency of women in Mesopotamia
• 39:08 | The enduring legacy and modern relevance of Mesopotamian history

Tone & Style

The conversation is accessible, enthusiastic, and rich in storytelling detail, blending scholarly insight with humor and contemporary analogies (e.g., Yelp reviews, memes, email “left unread in clay”). Both host and guest maintain a curious, open tone, inviting listeners to explore the deep past and reflect on its continued presence in the modern world.

Further Reading & Contact

• Moudhy Al-Rashid is reachable via Instagram, Bluesky, and her institutional email at Wolfson College, Oxford.
• The book Between Two Rivers is intended as a gateway, with a more detailed book in progress for the future.

For a deeper appreciation of the birth of historical consciousness, cuneiform culture, and the lively voices of ancient Mesopotamia, this episode provides an accessible yet scholarly guide—reminding us that across millennia, human concerns often remain strikingly familiar.