Podcast Summary: New Books Network

Episode: Nadia Ragbar, "The Pugilist and the Sailor" (Invisible Publishing, 2025)
Host: Holly Gattery
Guest: Nadia Ragbar
Date: September 14, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode of New Books Network features novelist Nadia Ragbar discussing her acclaimed debut novel, The Pugilist and the Sailor. Hosted by Holly Gattery, the conversation explores the origins, themes, and creative processes behind a narrative centered on conjoined twins, Bruce and Dougie, as they navigate connection, compromise, identity, and family. The episode also offers insights into Ragbar’s publishing journey and looks ahead to her future work.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Genesis of the Novel (03:57)

• Origin Story: The novel began as Nadia’s MA thesis project at the University of Toronto, during a time when she struggled with finding her own voice. An exercise making a list of things she loved led her to draw inspiration from Geek Love by Katherine Dunn, family memories of boxing, and two children she tutored, Bruce and Douglas.
• Quote:
  "I just decided to write a list of things that I love... through the blender of my imagination, the characters kind of arose and I just knew it was a story." (Nadia Ragbar, 04:30)
• Personal Themes: The story emerged from her interest in characters who feel "in limbo", struggling to take their first step forward.

2. Writing Beyond Personal Identity & Disability Representation (05:43, 08:07)

• Approaching Difference: Holly probes how Nadia, as an able-bodied person, approached writing conjoined twins.
• Nuanced Disability: Holly notes that, while disability can be construed as an underpinning of the novel, the story is more focused on strengths and abilities.
• Ragbar’s Response:
  • She paused writing to consider the ethics and her own position.
  • While the premise has carnivalesque and absurdist elements, she aimed to ground the book in humanity and respect for difference, using research and a focus on "body difference."
• Quote:
  "I didn't want the novel to feel exploitive or to feel cartoonish... I use this absurd element to kind of push against that and just say, well, maybe there could be this world where... these are who they are, and everybody just is dealing with it in the world of the book." (Nadia Ragbar, 08:35)

3. Major Themes: Compromise and Sibling Dynamics (10:01, 11:21)

• Living in Community: The conjoined twins premise amplifies themes of compromise and interdependence—a metaphor for familial or communal living.
• Sibling Relationships: The narrative draws from real sibling dynamics, where lived experiences in the same family diverge and power imbalances play out.
• Quote:
  "Every mundane choice you make is under consideration and you have to find a way to have grace for doing the things you don't want to do, because the other person will be doing things they don't want to do for you." (Nadia Ragbar, 11:34)

4. Characterization: Breaking the “Good Twin/Bad Twin” Trope (13:13)

• Complex Portraits: Ragbar intentionally avoids making one twin wholly good and the other bad. Both Bruce and Dougie are likable, flawed, and sometimes at odds, creating engaging internal and external drama.
• Dougie’s Drive vs. Bruce’s Reluctance: Dougie steamrolls Bruce out of single-mindedness, not malice; Bruce’s patience and reticence enrich the story’s tension.
• Quote:
  "I knew I wanted Bruce to be lovable and kind, and I wanted the reader to feel at odds with... sometimes wanting what Dougie wants and rooting for him and then other times rooting for Bruce..." (Nadia Ragbar, 13:28)

5. Naming and Reclaiming Identity: “The Ruben Beast” (14:09, 15:33)

• Origin of “The Ruben Beast”: The twins’ coach coins the moniker to help them reclaim negative labels as a source of strength and unity.
• Reclaiming Slurs: Discussion centers on taking ownership of words historically used to marginalize.
• Quote:
  "The label comes from their coach who uses it as a way for them to reclaim their identity... the insults that are hurled at them... reclaiming it for themselves so they can feel like a force to be reckoned with." (Nadia Ragbar, 15:33)

6. Excerpt Reading: Everyday Life of the Twins (16:55)

• Excerpt (16:55-21:35): Ragbar reads from the novel’s opening, vividly describing Bruce and Dougie’s routine, dynamic, and the subtle choreography of their shared life.
• Memorable Details: Grocery store security jobs, physical adaptations, the twins’ differences in temperament, and vivid, sensory writing.
• Quote:
  "Their physicality gave the impression that they were pals, chumming around, their arms always hanging around the other's neck as though they were children at an eternal Sunday picnic..." (Nadia Ragbar, 18:17)

7. Internal vs. External Conflict and Community Response (23:26, 27:48, 29:56)

• Violence and Consent: A nuanced discussion explores the ethics of Dougie dragging Bruce into boxing, with both author and host noting that Bruce’s acquiescence is both family dynamic and an internal struggle.
• Mother’s Role: Their mother supports boxing as empowerment, further complicating notions of consent.
• Town’s Response: The novel centers the twins’ perspectives, showing most townspeople as initially unsettled by their difference, but the twins and their mother foster resilience, creating a quasi-idyllic bubble.
• Quote:
  "The conflict for the twins is not so much them against the world, but just basically Bruce... against himself, against figuring out how to tell his brother no..." (Nadia Ragbar, 30:06)

8. The Romantic Plot and Foil Characters (31:21, 32:22)

• Anka’s Role: Anka, an Indo-Guyanese character, serves as both a narrative foil and a source of motivation for Bruce’s personal development. Her “adult orphan” status weaves in fairy tale and communal themes.
• Quote:
  "[Anka] is like the heart of the story... she's grieving, navigating a different state of limbo than the twins are. I used her character because I was exploring this idea of her being an adult orphan." (Nadia Ragbar, 33:25)

9. Publishing Journey and Advice for Debut Authors (34:31, 35:27)

• Long Road to Publication: Ragbar worked on the book for over a decade. It began as her thesis, endured periods of dormancy, and was shaped by years of revision based on feedback and lived experience. She ultimately submitted to a contest at Invisible Publishing and won.
• Advice: Each piece of art needs its “germination period” and sometimes rejection signals the need for revision, not failure.
• Quote:
  "If I didn't really try something with it I would feel so sad at the end of my life... so I made a list. I was going to send it to different agents and publishers and Invisible Press was my number one dream publisher." (Nadia Ragbar, 35:36)
• Quote:
  "I do believe, like, there is a germination period for every piece of art. And... I needed to live those 10 years... I needed, like, some depth to some of the things that I wanted to write about." (Nadia Ragbar, 38:45)

10. What's Next for Nadia Ragbar (41:20)

• Current Projects: She is drafting a new experimental novel exploring ancestral patterns and family dynamics in the 1980s, aiming for a more creatively non-traditional structure.
• Quote:
  "I'm thinking about, like, ancestral patterns that unconsciously repeat themselves down a family line... I'm really excited by a lot of creative nonfiction and experimental writing, and so I'm sort of leaning towards something that's not as straight ahead..." (Nadia Ragbar, 41:20)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "The blender of my imagination..." (Nadia Ragbar, 04:33)
• "I wanted the reader to feel at odds with, like, sometimes wanting what Dougie wants and rooting for him and then other times rooting for Bruce and really feeling, you know, feeling torn." (Nadia Ragbar, 13:28)
• "Every mundane choice you make is under consideration and you have to find a way to have grace for doing the things you don't want to do..." (Nadia Ragbar, 11:34)
• "The conflict for the twins is not so much them against the world, but just basically Bruce... against himself..." (Nadia Ragbar, 30:06)
• "There is a germination period for every piece of art." (Nadia Ragbar, 38:45)

Segment Timestamps

• 03:57 Introduction to the novel’s origins
• 05:43 Ethics of writing outside one’s experience
• 08:07 Disability, difference, and respect
• 10:01 Theme of compromise and sibling dynamics
• 14:09 “Good twin/bad twin" tropes & characterization
• 15:33 Reclaiming nicknames—The Ruben Beast
• 16:55 – 21:35 Live reading: novel excerpt
• 23:26 – 31:21 Family dynamics, violence, and community perceptions
• 32:22 The romantic subplot and Anka’s role
• 35:27 Publication journey and advice for debut authors
• 41:20 What’s next for Nadia Ragbar

Summary

This episode provides a deeply engaging look into The Pugilist and the Sailor and the journey of its creation. Nadia Ragbar and Holly Gattery’s conversation ranges from craft and ethics to the realities of publication, offering valuable perspectives for readers, writers, and anyone fascinated by the intersections of narrative, identity, and family.