Nadia Ragbar (3:57)

Well, it actually started as my thesis project, doing an MA at the U of T's Creative Field of Creative Writing Department. And I had been primarily writing flash fiction. And I decided it was my one chance to write a novel while having someone hold my hand. So I was kind of in a place where I sort of knew this thing that I wanted to write about, but I was really paralyzed with the thought that I didn't have a voice. I didn't know what my voice was. I didn't know what I had to say say. And so I was like, sort of flailing for a while. And then as an exercise, I just decided to, like, write a list of things that I love. And it was like books I loved, things that I'd seen, memories that were coming up. And one of the books that I had just always stayed with me since I read it was Geek Love by Katherine Dunn. And it's like a carnivalesque story. And in that book there are conjoined twins. And then I'd also had this memory of, like, my dad and my uncles, you know, getting together to watch boxing matches. And I was a tutor at the time. So I had these two kids that I worked with that I really loved, and one was named Bruce and one was named Douglas. And so through the blender of my imagination, the characters kind of arose and I just knew it was a story. Like, at the time, I was sort of writing about characters who were always in limbo and kind of daydreaming about how to take that first step to move forward in life was sort of what all my writing at the time was about. So that's where it started.

Holly Gattery (5:43)

I love that term, blender of your imagination. That is that is so accurate. You know, there's, there's pieces of our lives and novels often. But things are seldom very autobiographical in a clear sense. It's very murky. So. One thing that I was wondering how you would deal with before I started writing this book is conjoined twins, because you are not a conjoined twin. And in this world where we all seem to be encouraged either explicitly or implicitly to stay in our lanes, I was thinking, how is Nadia, who is not a white conjoined twin, not white at all, going to. But I wasn't really concerned with the race thing, to be honest, because I, I believe that people of color can always write about white people. My personal thing, because, you know, you know, the oppressor, this, the oppressor doesn't always know the margins. They don't understand, but the, the margins always know mainstream. So I, I wasn't, I wasn't really concerned about that. But it, you know, it's a question if you feel like answering. It was really about the conjoined, the conjoined twins and how you felt comfortable enough to write about them. And you do so well, because I want to be clear for our listeners. Well, disability, one could argue, is an undercurrent through this book. I would say not undercurrent. I, I think you, somebody could pick it up and make a case for it. If you want to write a thesis about how there's disabilities, I suppose you could, but I did not feel disability. It wasn't something I was focused on because while these two certainly have their limitations, there's a lot of strengths that we're focused on. And their abilities were so impressive that I wasn't really thinking about disabilities. But I understand that that is something that is an underpinning of the story. So I, I'm trying to word that in. I, I wrote this entire sheet of how to ask this question. As I was looking at it, I'm like, I'm just gonna go rogue here because I don't know if I can follow my train of thought. I think you get what I'm trying to ask.

Nadia Ragbar (8:07)

Yeah, I do. I spent a lot of time about it as I was writing the draft. I actually kind of stopped writing for a while to really consider my position and the choices I was making. Particularly. Yeah. As an able bodied person. What, what am I trying to say? What am I doing with this? And the premise, at first, it has kind of a gimmicky, like, it's a bit of an absurdist premise.

Holly Gattery (8:35)

Right.

Nadia Ragbar (8:35)

It's like, they're these adults who are amateur boxers. They're conjoined, like. So that premise is sort of in the realm of, we could say fantasy. But I didn't want the novel to feel exploitive or to feel cartoonish or like I was borrowing from the realm of the carnival esque, but only insofar as to make space for some magic in the book. But I feel like the book is quite grounded. And, I mean, I just approached it by looking. I did some research. I was just, like, looking at videos online and stuff of twins. And, I mean, it's just acknowledging their, you know, the humanity of these people and the characters. And so while the premise is kind of, you know, it's a little absurd when you, you know, when I give my elevator pitch, but really it's kind of about body difference and accepting that what is normal, it comes at a, you know, sort of an oppressive and, you know, with this force of, like, being deemed normal. And so I use this absurd element to kind of push against that and just say, well, maybe there could be this world where it's just a given that this. This is happening. These are who they are, and everybody just is dealing with it in. In the world of the book.

Holly Gattery (10:01)

I also love that a major theme I found myself wrestling with was compromise. The theme of compromise, because these. These brothers love each other very much, but they're quite different. Of course, they have, you know, similar personality traits, too. They're both kind and funny, but they're. They're different and what they want from life is different. And there was those scenes where Dougie and, oh, my, forgetting the other name were walking around the parking lot at night where one of them is a, like, security for a parking lot. Bruce. There we go. They're walking. Dougie is the one who works at the grocery store as security and to make sure people do not park in the parking lot at night when the grocery store is closed, you know, and I've definitely been run out of parking lots, so I was like, oh, okay, I get it. And then, you know, Bruce doesn't. It's not like he really looks forward to this, but he's. He's stuck doing it and, you know, likewise. Dougie is stuck going to Bruce's job as a bookkeeper. And I thought, my God, these people are far more understanding and patient than I'd ever be. So I'd like you to talk about compromise in your novel. And I believe that's a. For me, it was the theme that I really latched onto.

Nadia Ragbar (11:21)

Yeah, I Think that's. That's mainly, I think, what I was writing about. And so making the characters conjoined sort of let me lean into that. And I was just really thinking about, like, sibling dynamics doesn't necessarily even have to be siblings when you are living in community with people. And every choice that you make, you have to consider all the other people who are going to be impacted by that choice. And so having them be conjoined allowed me to force that a little bit of where the fits. Like, every mundane choice you make is under consideration, and you have to find a way to have grace for doing the things you don't want to do, because the other person will be doing things they don't want to do for you. But then at some point, you know, there is a power dynamic between them that's uneven because Dougie is the one that gets his way most of the time. And so it kind of was really looking at that. And I was just thinking about, like, sibling dynamics and family dynamics where, you know, you have siblings who grew up in the same house, but they have different experiences of growing up in that house. And. And what it means, like, how their. How their choices are informed by their parents or by, you know, other dynamics in the family and. And how as an adult, those things are still playing out.

Holly Gattery (12:47)

And so, yeah, I love that Dougie is so encouraging of Bruce on. In a lot of ways, but just steamrolls him in so many others. When I say that I love that, I mean, I don't love it. I love it for the drama it creates in the plot that it's hard to get mad at Dougie because he's such a good egg.

Nadia Ragbar (13:13)

Yeah, I really had fun writing that. Like, I. I knew I didn't want, like, in other things that I had read with twin. Twin stories, twin narratives, there was. There often is, like, the good twin and the bad twin, and particularly in stories about conjoined twins, especially one that's quite evil and has, like, murderous intentions toward the other one. And so I knew I wanted Bruce to be lovable and kind, and I wanted the reader to feel at odds with, like, sometimes wanting what Dougie wants and rooting for him and then other times rooting for Bruce and really feeling, you know, feeling torn. And so, yeah, I. I did have fun just letting Bruce sort of be pushed around by his brother quite a bit and. But, like, I don't know. I had fun writing Dummies. He's just. He felt. He charmed me. I was charmed by him.

Holly Gattery (14:09)

He was very Charming. I mean, I wanted Bruce to stand up for himself sometimes a little bit more. And a stand up isn't even quite the right word because when you think of stand up, you think of standing up to a bully. And that's not what Dougie was doing. Dougie is just so myopically focused on what he wants with boxing that he can't see what Bruce wants. And he's, in a way, slightly deluded himself into thinking that this is good for Bruce too. Even though Bruce is like, I don't. I'm tired of this. Like, he's, He's. He's obviously a fairly decent boxer himself, but it's not a label he attaches to himself. And it's so, it's so interesting to watch how, you know, he is part of this Reuben beast. And that's my next question before I ask you to read about that, that title. He's part of this, but he, he's part of this thing he actually doesn't identify with at all, it seems. And he's just there kind of reluctantly, and the coach is always like, you know, pick up. You have to be faster. You have to be faster. And he's like, like, you can just. I feel exasperated for him. He's like, listen, I'm here. Isn't that enough? Like, he's a really. He's a really interesting character. But the Ruben Beast I like like that. That seems like such a horribly derogatory thing to call conjoined twins, however that was addressed in the novel. And I'd like you to talk about that.

Nadia Ragbar (15:33)

Yeah, so it's. The label comes from their coach who uses it as a way for them to reclaim their identity, their, like their right to exist as boxers and in this sort of fictionalized boxing ring. And, and so it's, you know, taking the things that people, the insults that are hurled at them and. Yeah. Reclaiming it for themselves so that they can feel like a force to be reckoned with.

Holly Gattery (16:03)

Yeah, I love that. And, you know, it's kind of like when I know that a lot of people who live with mental illness don't like the term, like, lunatic, but I, for me, who live those with mental illnesses, I've really reclaimed that. And I, I'm. I'm here for it. I'm here for that term in relation to me, I feel like it's, it's accurate. So I, I like that. And I think that you're. As long as it's your identity you're talking about, you can reclaim what you want there's probably cases you could argue maybe not. But I think for the most part we can have a lot more fun with how we describe ourselves and what we accept as adequate descriptors of our personalities than maybe we do right now in this, you know, political social climate. So I would love for you to read to us from the Pugilist and the Sailor. Sure.

Nadia Ragbar (16:55)

So I think I'm gonna just read right from the first few opening pages June 2012 Bruce couldn't decide where he'd be more comfortable. He held a book in his right hand. His smaller left arm was hitched around his brother Dougie's neck, and Dougie's smaller right arm was around his neck. They were standing in the Everest grocery parking lot and he knew he couldn't perch up on the ledge of the concrete planter by the automatic doors because his brother, his conjoined twin, was working. Maybe bracing against the wall in the shade by the shopping carts would be a better spot to read, but Dougie had them out on the small strip of grass between the left entrance and the sidewalk while he practiced his left hook over and over. Bruce and Dougie Rubin were twins, joined at the waist. Their separate torsos branched from three legs, the outer legs and the shared middle leg. Bruce commanded the right, Dougie the left, and Bruce desperately wanted to ring While his brother worked his shift, Dougie worked security at the parking lot of a 24 hour grocery store downtown. He had to ensure that people weren't parking for free if they weren't buying groceries, seeing as there was a theater down the street that didn't have its own parking lot. It was 12 o' clock and sweltering. They had six hours before their next boxing match. After his shift, Dougie would have some Greek yogurt with nuts and berries and make sure Bruce didn't eat anything too heavy. He had to remember to buy some bananas before he left Everest. There was a damp spot spreading hopelessly underneath Bruce's right armpit. Hey Dougie, do me a favor. Take off my cap and wipe my forehead. Bruce held his book up and his outer hand and expanded explanation. Dougie did and readdressed Bruce's cap. He took his shades off and wiped his own face. Thanks, Dougie. You must be dying in your uniform. Bruce gave his brother a light pat on the shoulder with his smaller left hand. They were wearing black cargo pants as per regulation. Their mother, Jane, had taken two pairs, splitting and reassembling seams to accommodate their larger middle leg. Dougie wore the regulation light blue short sleeved shirt, but Bruce refused it and wore a white tee, though the manager would have loved the optics if they just both wore the regulation gear. Jane had cut slits on one side of their shirts to try to accommodate the asymmetry of the house. Christ, that's humidity. Dougie bent to grab the water bottle at his feet and took a long slug of water. It's only June. Bruce hated when Dougie had to work the day shift. Dougie loved when he had to work on Friday nights. He felt like the only sheriff in town. Dougie usually made Bruce yell with him in stereo for effect. Hey, if you ain't buying groceries, get the hell off of my lot. Bruce, on the other hand, burned with embarrassment whenever they had to run after someone who was sneaking down the alley. Bruce and Dougie could run at a good cliff. They had the rhythm down and their training as boxers was only a bonus. They planted the shared middle leg and worked their outside legs in tandem, their smaller arms draped around one another's shoulders as they gave chase. It was a bit stilted, but terrifyingly fast. Dougie had an extremely high success rate at getting freeloaders off Everest Grisham's property. Their physicality gave the impression that they were pals, chumming around, their arms always hanging around the other's neck as though they were children at an eternal Sunday picnic, eating potato salad and racing down to the creek to catch tadpoles. Most of Dougie's co workers were completely unaware that Bruce was in fact deeply mortified to be approaching 34 years old and stuck out on display on the lot. The manager often, too often charted. Bruce brought both their names up in praise at staff meetings with the dual intention of showcasing that he was a hip, open minded, accepting kind of guy rather than some stuffy suit, while also trying to shame his 15 year old nephew, the other security guard on staff, into taking the job seriously. The manager failed miserably at both attempts. Bruce wished the manager would just leave his name out of it and focused his merit points solely on Debbie, who is the only Reuben with an Everest employee number. Bruce dotted the page where he had left off his reading and tilted his face up to the blueness above. Lately he had become obsessed with an old sailor named M who had sailed around the world alone, around once and almost around again without stopping. He had all of the responsibilities of staying afloat, staying on course, staying alive. With no one else to lean on. Bruce tried to breathe in the heft of that much open space. It was a sickly kind of seduction that pulled him he was queasy with attraction to the ocean's writhing and unceasing end. Squinting up at the familiar sky, we struggled to see something deeper in it. Some revelation, some winking recognition of his own valor. But his stomach just dropped again. The blue was a flatness that shut him out.

Holly Gattery (21:35)

Thank you so much. I think that passage that you read so perfectly illustrates something I think I have failed to articulate properly is that I identify myself and my soul with Bruce as far as my personality goes. But I am fascinated by and drawn to Dougie and you know, like someone that, you know, like you would anybody else who you admire and wish you were a little bit more like but aren't.

Nadia Ragbar (22:02)

That is exactly how I felt when I wrote it. Like I. I gave all my neuroses to Bruce and Dougie was the version of me that I sometimes wish that I had more of.

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Nadia Ragbar (23:11)

Our nation has always counted on us.

TJ Watt (23:14)

To win, to fight for what better.

Nadia Ragbar (23:16)

Could be to secure our future together.

LinkedIn Ads Narrator (23:22)

We are Marines.

Nadia Ragbar (23:24)

We were made for this.

Holly Gattery (23:26)

Exactly. And for any. Anyone who reads the book and is like, what kind of monster would like to be like Dougie? Because as I mentioned, does steamroll Bruce a little bit. It isn't out of. I would, I wouldn't say that. It's out of intentional malice. I, I think he could be accused at most of being self absorbed, but not malicious. And, you know, then let's talk about being self absorbed when you share a body with somebody. And that's my, my question for you next, because Dougie is, by virtue of following his dream, subjecting Bruce to physical violence. And it's a really interesting tension that I think you explore well, without giving clear cut answers in your book. And I'd like you to talk about that.

Nadia Ragbar (24:13)

Well, I think, I mean, just in terms of Dougie's team rolling, I feel like that happens in families all the time with people who love you and, and sort of act in your best interests and want you to do the things that they think will be good for you. So I think that's where he sort of is coming from. But in terms of like the violence, I feel like, I feel like Bruce doesn't see it as subjecting him to anything that he thinks that he's like overpowered by. Because I think Bruce is. He sees him as a, you know, he's an equal boxer. It's like he's given his consent to taking boxing lessons and going along. Even though Dougie ignores him every time he wants, Bruce wants to quit. So I think in Dougie's mind, he doesn't feel like he's forcing Bruce to do something he doesn't want. I think he sees some of Bruce's maybe depression or neuroses as like, like being active and doing this thing is the thing that will help him. He doesn't know it'll help him, but this is what's going to give him confidence. And then later in the book, Bruce does kind of come out of his comfort zone and, and sort of for the first time in his life is like curious about approaching a romantic relationship. And Dougie sort of chalks that up, that new consonants up to the fact that he's. He's been boxing. So I think in terms of suggesting Bruce to violence, like subjecting him to violence, I don't think that Dougie even thinks that that's what he's doing.

Holly Gattery (25:53)

No, he definitely doesn't, which is what I found fascinating. Dougie does not think that's what he's doing. And even when Bruce is like, I don't want to do. But again, as you said, Bruce is. I don't think that Bruce even would. I'd argue that. I don't think he'd see it that way himself either. That, that is something that I'm bringing with me to the book is like, you know, your brother has. As a mother of four, it's like your brother has said, no, now stop it. You know, that's, you know, I always say it on the show Books of Mirrors and that's my mirror. Right. As someone who doesn't like any kind of fighting, even when it's in sports, like, I can't watch Iraqi without sending the full time fringing. Right. So like, oh, stop hitting each other. Go, go write a poem.

Nadia Ragbar (26:38)

Talk about this. Let's just talk about this. Well, I think partly what I did was kind of bring their mother into it too. Like, I think she, she kind of condones the activity and she sees it as a way for them to become self actualized and powerful in their bodies, like specifically boxes. More than any other extracurricular activity, she sees that as the thing that will bolster them in life. And so because they have their parent support, particularly their mother's support, I think that's why it's not seen as sort of, I don't know, non consensual, I suppose. And then I think Bruce, he's sort of in this role in the family where he's just. He goes along, he does it and he kind of. Yeah, like you said, he gets railroaded, gets steamrolled by this and, and he doesn't really put up much of an argument against it. He's just always gone along because he's always. Then, yeah, I guess he's always just felt like his role is like sidekick to his brother.

Holly Gattery (27:48)

Yeah. And I think one of the reasons that I can sit here and say, you know, your brother doesn't want to do this. Dougie, stop. It's not because Bruce has actually said that too often or too loudly. It's because through these multiple points of view, we haven't. We have an inside look and we're in his head. We're in Bruce's head. So I was. We as readers are aware of stuff that he is not actually saying all the time. A frustration that he doesn't actually put out there. Which is again, what I found so interesting is that, you know, I'm sitting here going, your brother doesn't want to do this. Okay. The brother going, well, maybe he should say that a little louder sometimes. Which, which is like a really interesting. Like I said, it was really interesting conceit altogether. And I also loved how this. I will be talking about the romantic relationship. So just putting that out there. But I also found that the way that the. We'll call them, the townspeople of the, of the book didn't. I mean, there were reactions to seeing conjoined twins walking down the streets. Like I was aware of the fact that, you know, this wasn't quite something that just passed unnoticed by other people. But there was this feeling that the narrative was so centered around the. These brothers. I was about to say boys, but they're adults. These brothers and we are being as aware of it as they would have been, which is they're aware of it. When somebody like screams something at them, for the most part it feels like they blocked it out. So it wasn't that the, the sorts of discrimination they would have faced or the jeers or the taunting. It's definitely in there, especially when they were younger. But as they get older, I. It wasn't there as much. And I really love that. It felt very authentic to how it would have been in their heads living this. But I. My next question is about you creating that sense of verisimilitude with the way people would actually react to seeing conjoined twins walk down the street.

Nadia Ragbar (29:56)

Effy. Yeah, I think that when I created this world for them, I. In my mind I wanted it to just be fine. Like everyone would just get over it and be okay with these people just sort of doing their thing. It's. I didn't want them to be in a world that was so harsh and so. I don't know. So many obstacles in their way. Although I did. I mean they do have to contend with it. So. Yeah. I do think it is something that their mother in particular is sort of determined that they grew up feeling confident and feeling like they don't. They don't have to bend to the world is something that she tells them. And so I wanted them to grow up just feeling like they had a place and. And they were going to sort of block the things out that didn't concern them and do as much as they could to sort of exist on their own terms. Even though Bruce. That's basically what Bruce is struggling. So it's like the conflict for the twins is not so much them against the world, but just basically Bruce. I mean against himself, against figuring out how to tell his brother. No. How to stand up for the things that he wants to do sort of in this like idyllic little sort of bubble that they've created for themselves.

Holly Gattery (31:21)

Yeah. Because when Bruce finally does no spoilers speak up for what he wants, Dougie doesn't stand in his way, you know, when he actually puts them force. I mean it took a series of events to get to that point. So arguably it took him a while. I think the wonderful thing about Dougie is he. He loves his brother more than anyone. And you know, he is not a bad guy. He's just like any of us when we get. When we're very single minded about things. And I get that is something I can relate to though. You know, Dougie's charm and him being as just what the charismatic person he is is not something I could do. But I did relate to being very single minded at the expense, perhaps even the detriment of people I love and care about. So I really enjoyed that. So the romantic relationship, was this always going to be part of the plot or is this something that, as you began writing, thinking this needs to happen? Because it felt like it was. It felt so natural and necessary.

Nadia Ragbar (32:22)

Yeah, it was part of the little. The beginnings of it. So I had Anka there from the start and so I, I kind of needed her as a foil, I guess, to sort of kickstart Bruce and to really, for understanding what he wants and that he, he can stand up for himself or that he can decide that he wants something different in trying to pursue something, work. And so, yeah, she's there from the beginning. So she is a character that I really like. What I said before, that I kind of had to stop and really think about the choices I was making. Like, she. So she's an Indo Guyanese character. So she comes into the story probably by page 20 or something. And I kind of had to think like, she is the closest sort of representation in the text to myself. And so part of what I had to think about was, did I want to make this her story and did I want to center her more? And then I sort of toyed with the idea of like, maybe it's actually the twins are girls. I like toyed with all of these sort of iterations of the twins and who the twins were. And in the end I realized that Anka was Anka and she was where she needed to be because to me, she is like the heart of the story. Like, she's grieving. We meet her, she's sort of grieving the loss of her parents and she's kind of navigating a different state of limbo than the twins are. But I, I used her character because I was exploring this idea of her being an, like an adult orphan. I was kind of thinking about fairy tales and the obsession with orphans and fairy tales and then coupled with my ribbon beast and this idea of monstrosity and. And I was looking at the need for community and what it means to have autonomy. And so Anka, I sort of built that in into her character for me. Wow.

Holly Gattery (34:31)

She felt very natural to me. And foil. She may have started for you, but she came fully realized for me at least, which is the beauty of being the reader of something and not the writer, because you're Not, I feel like sometimes as the writer or something, you're seeing every incarnation that existed before the finished one, which you will never see it because you've been too involved with it from, from the time that these, these fully realized characters were, you know, skeletal sketches of who they would be. So I felt like that was really wonderful. My final question for you is. Actually there's two. So it's not final, it's kind of a two part question number one. There's a really interesting story. I'd love people to know about how this book came to be published with Invisible, because I think it'd be interesting for maybe other debut authors listening, if they are, or just people in general who don't know about the opportunities and the avenues that exist towards publication. If you could speak about that and then tell us what you're working on next.

Nadia Ragbar (35:27)

Oh, sure. So this book, like I said it was my master's thesis, but I did my master's like 12 years ago. So it is a long time going. So it was something I worked on and put down and, and I initially, when, you know, when I had my first really unripe draft, I'd sent that out and it wasn't ready and it didn't look the way it looks now. And, and so after I'd put it down for a while, I realized in about 2023 that if I didn't really try something with it that I would feel so sad at the end of my life. I'd so like regret if I didn't try a little harder with this. And so I made a list. I was going to send it to different agents and publishers and Invisible Press was like my number one dream publisher because they're wonderful and their work is amazing. And so I sort of made this solemn bound. I had a whole bunch of edits that I knew I wanted to make before I sent it out on this, you know, round. And like two days after I, I had made that decision, I saw that Invisible had put out a call for a first novel contest that they were doing in conjunction with York University and the book publishing program there. And so I had like a month until the deadline. And so I got to work and I submitted it and I won the contest and that's how it happened. And yeah, it was amazing. It was just kismet, I want to say, but it was, it really was something because I had struggled for a long time with it. I really, I didn't know how to break in other than, you know, just joining the slush pile. And. And just, you know, writing that query letter, it was just really a stroke of luck for me, to be honest.

Holly Gattery (37:28)

I think you have relayed something that is so important for authors and who maybe have not been published before and that if you keep rejected, maybe you need. Maybe it's not then maybe. Maybe we need to think again about the work and revisit it and do the work to make it stronger without compromising, you know, the vision that we can stand behind and support and make it an argument for. What you were saying reminded me so much of. I had a poem, a sestina, and it was rejected for 14 years and over a hundred times. And then it won the New Quarterlies, which is an amazing magazine for people don't know in Canada, amazing literary magazine in Canada. It won their Nick Blatchford Occasional Verse Award. And again, this thing was rejected for 14 years. But every time it was rejected, I thought, how can I make this better? And there was a point at which I was not making it better. I was just sending it out to different people. But between, like, the first few times it was submitted and rejected to the final time, I definitely try to make it better and see what I could do to make this piece stronger. And I think that's really important is it's not always that people don't have no vision. Sometimes it's that we just need to keep working. Yeah.

Nadia Ragbar (38:39)

And I. I do believe, like, there is a germination period for every piece of art. And so, like, if this had come out, you know, when I first. When I first wrote it and in the first version of it, like, that version was a lot it to me, I needed to live those 10 years. I needed, like, some depth to some of the things that I wanted to write about and some, you know, personal experience that I could really lean on in the writing of this. And so I think sometimes timing works for us. And even though it takes a long time if we have enough say in our project and ourselves, you know, you know, putting the work in, I think ultimately time is, you know, of a benefit.

Holly Gattery (39:28)

I love that. Right time, right place, right draft. It's a combination of things, because not every publisher is good for every single book. One publisher might love a book, and another one. It's not what they publish. It's not their kind of thing. You might, you know, be submitting to a publisher that specializes in speculative fiction and then. But your book is historical fiction. Like, just knowing things like that can help. But of course, there's also the, you know, right set of eyes looking at it, that you've done enough work that made it the best possible piece it could be.

Nadia Ragbar (39:59)

You also don't have to have, like, a perfect draft when you're submitting. You have to have something you believe in. But there's also, like, so much editing that happens once you're drafted. It's, like, accepted that sometimes you can be like, I myself too. You can be paralyzed by the idea of perfection and having something be like, trying to get it so perfect before you start sending it out or whatever. And so there is room. As long as there's, like, the potential or the state that someone. Someone recognizes in it, then, you know, there's always time to continue editing. Absolutely.

Holly Gattery (40:35)

I mean, God knows my books never been perfect. I. I recently, you know, was working with a copy editor in my tenses. Like, I have no concept of tense. I'm, like, all over the place. But somebody still accepted it. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. Yeah, it's. It's insane, but it's. It. I always say, like, it's not that I try to become a better writer and be more coherent with my tenses. It's not that. But I've also understand that my failure to grasp when I'm moving too much between tenses is not going to make or break somebody offering to publish a book. So I don't get too caught up or paralyzed anymore. I definitely used to at first. So the final question. What are you working on right now?

Nadia Ragbar (41:20)

Right now, I sort of in the early stages of drafting and thinking about a story. I want it to be like, an experimental novel, so we'll see what happens. But I'm thinking about, like, ancestral patterns that unconsciously repeat themselves down a family line. And so I'm thinking about a family sort of in the 1980s. Suburbs and events that unknowingly are mirrored from their ancestors. And so right now, I basically just have a premise, and so I'm thinking about plot. But also, I. I'm really excited by a lot of creative nonfiction and experimental writing, and so I'm sort of leaning towards something that's not as straight ahead as the novel, the future list and the sailor. Something a little experimentally strange.

Holly Gattery (42:18)

I live for that stuff.

Nadia Ragbar (42:19)

I know. It's so good.

Holly Gattery (42:21)

It is. It is. And I mean, I think we're allowed to try as much as we want to try and go in as many directions as we want. It's like, you know, I used to run for years, and I still run, but, you know, now I like to do, like, let's get out there and, you know, lift some weights. Let's, let's do some old fashioned calisthenics, let's stretch every now and then because, you know, doing the same, exercising the same muscle gets really boring after. So I absolutely get that. Well, thank you so much for joining me today to talk about your wonderful book, the Pugilist and the Sailor, which is available wherever books are bought and borrowed and is published by the miraculous and not at all invisible, quite prominent invisible press in beautiful, sunny right now Canada. Thank you so much again, Nadia, for joining me today.

Nadia Ragbar (43:08)

Thanks so much.