Octavian Gabor, "Immigrant on Earth: A Philosopher on the Road to Emmaus" (Wipf and Stock, 2025)

Summary

Podcast Summary: New Books Network

Episode: Octavian Gabor, Immigrant on Earth: A Philosopher on the Road to Emmaus (Wipf and Stock, 2025)
Date: October 4, 2025
Host: New Books
Guest: Octavian (Tavi) Gabor

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Episode Overview

This episode features a rich and thought-provoking interview with philosopher and author Octavian (Tavi) Gabor, discussing his forthcoming book, Immigrant on Earth: A Philosopher on the Road to Emmaus. The conversation weaves together themes of spiritual journey, philosophical contemplation, human relationships, and the paradoxes of suffering and joy—exploring how Gabor’s essays and reflections interlace daily life, literature, faith, and the search for meaning.

The book, as discussed, is unique in the American literary landscape—combining journals, memoirs, and essays in a style more typical in European contexts. It serves to illuminate the intersections between the prosaic and the sublime, and, through personal stories and philosophical dialogue, it seeks ways to glimpse the “unseen presence of God” in everyday moments.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Title & Central Metaphor

Timestamps: [04:00]–[09:10]

• "Immigrant on Earth" reflects not a legal/political status, but a spiritual condition: each person is a traveler, an "immigrant" in the souls and lives of others.
  • “It’s not a political immigrant. It’s about a personal immigrant, that is one who travels from one soul to another.” —Octavian Gabor [04:52]
• Suggests Earth is not one's “home” in an essential sense, but we are called to bring about a “kingdom” through relationships and connections.
• "Philosopher on the Road to Emmaus" references the biblical story (Luke and Cleopas meeting Christ) and the Greek idea of theoria—the journey to contemplation and ultimate realities.
  • “Truth is revealed on the path from the temple towards home, in the personal encounter.” —Octavian Gabor [07:11]

2. Encounter & Stopping on the Journey

Timestamps: [09:10]–[14:14]

• Discusses Tolstoy’s “The Two Old Men”: true "Jerusalem" is found not at the destination, but in stopping to help others on the way.
  • “He doesn’t achieve what he wanted… but he at the same time achieves eternal life in the helping of others.” —Octavian Gabor [11:59]
• Contrasts this with the notion of "good selfishness" (Noica), emphasizing excellence for the benefit of many, as opposed to direct self-sacrifice.
• The essential point in Gabor’s view: the willingness to be interrupted for another, letting go of rigid pursuit for an openness to encounter.

3. Absurdity, Waiting, and the Possibility of Grace

Timestamps: [14:14]–[21:59]

• Compares Samuel Beckett’s Waiting for Godot (“nothing to be done”) to the Emmaus journey.
  • “In Godot, it almost feels as if the encounter is not possible because of their initial orientation…towards nothingness.” —Octavian Gabor [15:22]
• Examines whether hope and grace can arise in situations of apparent absurdity or dead ends.
  • “You can be in the darkest dungeons and you can have beauty in life. …Beauty was experienced within the absurd.” —Octavian Gabor [20:08]
• Suggests that paradox and embrace, even within suffering, are ways that meaning emerges against the backdrop of absurd or senseless conditions.

4. Values and Human Relationship: Alyosha vs. Ivan

Timestamps: [25:04]–[35:34]

• Discusses Dostoevsky’s Brothers Karamazov: Alyosha as an “oasis” for others, Ivan as detached, abstract, and unable to truly encounter or value individuals.
  • “Alyosha is someone who becomes an oasis for other people…precisely because he has values.” —Host quoting Gabor [27:33]
• Alyosha’s orientation is toward the ideal—he loves values but does not weaponize them. Ivan, instead, uses values as standards to judge and exclude.
  • “Alyosha is someone who loves values, not someone who says, I have those virtues, but rather is oriented towards them.” —Octavian Gabor [28:14]
• Having values and orientation creates the space for real encounter and meaningful rest; valueless openness or rigid imposition are both empty.

5. Suffering, Transformation, and the Birth of Beauty

Timestamps: [35:34]–[44:13]

• Explores the chapter “Fragments with the Beautiful”—how suffering can become the ground for giving birth to beauty.
  • “Our bodies go through events that we do not bring upon us…but all these moments disappear when we hear again… the call of the beautiful.” —Host quoting Gabor [37:00]
• Cites real stories of survival and transformation in the Romanian gulags (e.g., Father Roman Braga), where individuals turn suffering into occasions for joy and spiritual birth.
• Recognizes mystery: not all suffering leads to such transformation, and it cannot be prescribed.
  • “There are moments…we actually do fall into a desperate state. Why does it happen? I do not know." —Octavian Gabor [39:12]

6. The Paradox of Self, Responsibility, and Embracing the Other

Timestamps: [45:20]–[53:50]

• Investigates the interplay between self-definition and openness to others, as seen in the essay “Losing Yourself in the Depths of Your Being.”
  • “Anytime I perceive the world, I am also part of the world, and I can never differentiate myself from the world.” —Octavian Gabor [46:18]
• The spiritual/existential responsibility is framed in the paradox: “I am nobody, but I am first responsible.”
  • "If I am the first, I am primarily responsible for how the world is." —Octavian Gabor [49:02]
• Christian practice (e.g., liturgy, prayers of confession before communion) as the context for embodying radical responsibility and embrace, even including enemies or persecutors.

7. Failure, Humility, and Possibility

Timestamps: [55:45]–[60:31]

• Discusses Gabor’s review of Costica Bradatan’s In Praise of Failure.
  • “Failure is part of life and can save us from many things, including from becoming Ivans… If we want too much perfection, we can become perfect killers.” —Octavian Gabor [56:29]
• Details the dangers of totalizing, perfectionistic ideals (in totalitarian regimes, in personal life; via Dostoevsky’s Grand Inquisitor or Abraham in Kierkegaard).
  • “Humility is not the opposite of success. It is the embracing of one’s nature and being delighted in it.” —Octavian Gabor [60:31]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On the nature of being an "immigrant":
"Each one of us travel to the souls of other human beings... The earth itself is not our place, essentially speaking, but rather we may exist into a different kind of universe, perhaps into a kingdom... by recreating connections." —Octavian Gabor [05:24]

On choosing to help others along the journey:
"He doesn’t think about going to the temple and achieving what he wants... He instead is caught by helping the people in the village who had problems. And he… achieves eternal life in the helping of others." —Octavian Gabor [11:59]

On the paradox of absurdity and grace:
"I genuinely believe there can be no hell if you are embraced and someone else embraces you in return… Beauty is experienced within the absurd." —Octavian Gabor [20:08]

On the hazard of perfectionism:
"Both communism and fascism begin with perfection… the idea of perfection usually brings death." —Octavian Gabor [60:31]

On humility and failure:
"Humility is not the opposite of success. It is the embracing of one’s nature and being delighted in it." —Octavian Gabor [60:31]

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Key Timestamps for Important Segments

• [04:00] The Book’s Title and Metaphor (“Immigrant on Earth” & “Road to Emmaus”)
• [09:10] Tolstoy’s "The Two Old Men", Stopping for the Other
• [14:14] Waiting for Godot vs. Emmaus: Absurdity and Grace
• [25:04] Oasis of Freedom: Alyosha vs. Ivan (Dostoevsky)
• [35:34] Suffering to Beauty: Pitesti Experiment, Father Roman Braga
• [45:20] Paradoxes of Self and Responsibility
• [55:45] Failure & Humility; Critique of Bradatan's Book

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Tone & Language

Throughout the discussion, Gabor’s tone is simultaneously contemplative, humble, and deeply reflective, moving naturally between literary allusion, theological insight, and personal testimony. The conversation feels like a philosophical dialogue, rich but inviting, earnest but never dogmatic.

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Final Remarks

This episode offers a profound look at the spiritual and philosophical projects of Immigrant on Earth, traversing questions of identity, suffering, values, and the irreducible complexity of living well with and for others. Listeners are given a window into the lived experience of philosophy—not as abstract argument, but as a journey, an embrace, and, at times, a cross.

Transcript

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[Interviewer / Host]

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Welcome to the New Books Network.

[Interviewer / Host]

It is a very warm late September day in Chicago and in Peoria as well, where my friend Octavian, or Tavi Gabor is. And we came together to discuss his book Immigrant on Earth A Philosopher on the Road to a Mouse. And we had a discussion about the book here at the bookstore in Chicago two days ago. And we said, let's also do a New Book Network discussion because there were a few questions that were left unanswered and uncovered. So it is a very interesting book, I think, unique for the American context because it is a combination of journal, memoirs, essays, which is very common in a European context, but not in an American context. And that's why it's, I think, really refreshing to see such a book be published in the U.S. and the book weaves, I mean, the author of the book, Octavian Gabor, weaves every reading, teaching, music, encounter into a personal, spiritual tapestry that helps him span the prosaic, the everyday, and the sublime. He helps us look deeper into human relationships and into the hidden recesses of reality in order to discern a glimpse of the unseen presence of God. And as I went through the book, I discerned two approaches or two methods. One was from ground up, bottom up, so to speak, grassroots, where he uses everyday occurrences, encounters the spontaneity and the surprises of everyday life, also the prosaic and sometimes frivolous aspects of everyday life to find deeper meanings into these occurrences. And then he connects these to his readings, to his philosophical reflections.

[Octavian (Tavi) Gabor]

Right.

[Interviewer / Host]

Now, the other approach is, so to speak, top down, where he uses his readings to illuminate or shed light on what happens around him. It is a dense and intense book, sometimes also radical book, and it should be read slowly, chapter by chapter, almost like a journal. And so I'm gonna start by asking Tavi about the title of the book or titles, because the titles of the book are interesting and a bit puzzling. One is Immigrant on Earth, A Philosopher on the Road to Emmaus. So welcome, Tavi, please can you explain the titles and then we'll take it from there.

[Octavian (Tavi) Gabor]

Sure. Thank you very much. Allow me first to thank you for posting me here and at the same time for being my partner of discussion two days ago. Well, the day you actually mentioned. So thank you. It's really a pleasure to be here, but as you know, it's always a pleasure to be in dialogue with you. So the title of the book, Immigrant on Earth, is primarily about the idea that each one of us, and in this case the author, because the immigrant is me, so to say, is traveling in this life from one place to another, but not necessarily in a political sense. So not necessarily in the sense that I am a Romanian living in the United States because my, my heritage is Romanian, but rather in the sense that each one of us travel to the souls of other human beings. And you mentioned fact that the book weaves together readings, music and human beings and daily encounters, and it does so by showing how we are immigrant and other people are immigrant in us. That is, we, we live in other people's lives for the good and for the bad. We influence them. And in some sense, we could say that each life is unique. It also has the idea that we are immigrant on Earth. That is, I mean, it suggests perhaps the fact that the earth itself is not our place, essentially speaking, but rather we may exist into a different kind of universe, perhaps into a kingdom, I would call it this way. And being an immigrant on Earth, we are always called to give birth to the kingdom in us and in others, by recreating connections. So that would be let's say a little bit of the part about immigrant on earth. To make it short, it's not a political immigrant. It's about a personal immigrant, that is one who travels from one soul to another. The other part, the philosopher on the road to Emmaus refers to the Gospel where Luke and Cleopas, after Christ's resurrection, leave Jerusalem, and they leave Jerusalem towards Emmaus. So they go from the temple, from the religious temple to home, thinking that they have understanding, and they meet on the road a stranger, so an immigrant, I would say, and that is Christ Jesus. And Jesus reveals to them in the personal encounter that they have truth. So they had not received truth from the temple, from visiting the temple itself, but they receive truth in this traveling together with another human being who can show to them what reality is finally in the breaking of the bread, because that's how they recognize him. I would also say now that I don't talk about it in the book necessarily, but it also refers in my mind to the concept of contemplation, or theoria. And theoria, at the beginning in the Greek world meant the traveling that some envoys from different cities were taking whenever they were going to the capital, to the city for religious festivals to figure out certain truths about reality. And these theoros were supposed to come back home to educate their own cities about what has happened there. The word itself, theoria, was taken by philosophers, of course, by Plato and Aristotle, and men, contemplation. It was also a travel towards the ultimate realities. He wasn't the temple, the religious temple, but it was the ideas of the philosophers. And to me, it's interesting that in Christianity truth is revealed on the path from the temple towards home, in the personal encounter that Luke and Cleopas have with Christ. I can obviously talk more about it, but that's pretty much the idea behind it.

[Interviewer / Host]

Yeah. As you. As you explain this, one of the essays comes to mind, two actually. And one of them is related to a story by Tolstoy. Right. About these two people who go to Mecca. Right. Or to Jerusalem. They go to Jerusalem, Yes, Jerusalem. And one of them somehow forfeits his journey because he gets distracted and helps a poor family that he encounters.

[Octavian (Tavi) Gabor]

Right.

[Interviewer / Host]

Is that right?

[Octavian (Tavi) Gabor]

Correct. It's a very good observation. The Two Old Men is a story by Tolstoy. And yeah, the two men go towards Jerusalem. One of them stopped at a certain place, and he is somehow taken by the reality at hand and he's helping all those people. The other guy goes to Jerusalem and he seems to see from time to Time, his friend in the multitude, but he never catches him. And in fact, when he comes back, he realizes that his friend has never gone to Jerusalem. He has encountered Jerusalem not in the place itself, so not in the place of the temple, but he has encountered Jerusalem in the daily lives of human beings. Actually, that refers also to. Now that you mentioned it, it just came to me, to be honest. It refers to the Romanian story used without age and life without. I was forgiving by uprisk. Used without age and life without death. As after the prince goes to the. To the place of eternal life. And then he all of a sudden has a certain memory and he wants to go home and he is trying to go back. In his case, he stops on the road to help an old man, and because of that he cannot return to the realm of eternal life. And because of the egoism, he. Sorry, not because of egoism, because of the selflessness that he has, he does not achieve eternal life. So it's kind of a opposite stories, so to say. And Constantine Noga, the Romanian philosopher that I'm sure you are also very familiar with, points out that in life you should have what he calls a good. A good selfishness, a good egoism. And the good egoism, the good selfishness is to always concentrate on your own excellence so that the product of your excellence helps the multitude instead of helping the individual. That happens in your life and so on. Well, I don't. Obviously don't agree with this part, but.

[Interviewer / Host]

Yeah, but, but why do you say this contradicts the story by Tolstoy?

[Octavian (Tavi) Gabor]

Because in the story by Tolstoy, the guy who stops does not think about his own excellence, does not think about going to the temple and achieving what he wants to achieve when he left home. He instead is caught by helping the guy on the. On the side of the road, or helping the people in the village who had problems and so on. And he doesn't on first sight, he doesn't achieve what he wanted. He doesn't go to Mecca or, you know, Jerusalem, to the final temple, but he at the same time achieves eternal life in the helping of others. Noika says, well, the guy who have achieved eternal life, if he did not help the guy on the road and he just went with his horse to the realm of eternal life, but because he stopped, caught up with him when he died. So you should have some sort of good self less selfishness, so you achieve final finality.

[Interviewer / Host]

But for, for your understanding of the journey, this stopping is essential, right?

[Octavian (Tavi) Gabor]

Correct. Yes, the stopping is essential.

[Interviewer / Host]

I Believe that allows you to precisely become or enter or both enter and receive the other or others in yourself. Right.

[Octavian (Tavi) Gabor]

I fully agree with this. Yes. At the same time, I will not say that this has to be the purpose, because there is also a temptation or a danger. You know, I have to help all the others. I have to dedicate myself to others. That is a problem. I would say that you have to have an orientation, so you will have to go. You have to desire to go to Jerusalem, but you do not transform this desire into your new God. And if things appear on the road, you need to stop there and help whoever shows before you as someone in need. But you do not start the road towards Jerusalem by saying, I will go to help all other men. Because if actually, if you do so, you kind of become like Ivan. Ivan from Batiskara. Mazel.

[Interviewer / Host]

So, yeah, and we'll talk about him momentarily. Yes, but another story about a journey in the book is. I think you have at least one essay about Waiting for Godot, if not two. Yes, but Waiting for Godot seems to be one is called Nothing to be Done. Waiting for Godot. It's basically as a non journey. Right. And a non encounter. Right. And to me that somehow exemplifies those aspects of life that really are on the more tragic, negative side. Where things don't emerge, encounters are not realized. Right. And so with the non journey of Waiting for Godot, how would that connect through the journey to a mouse or not connect? Do you see them as complementary? Do you see them as contradictory?

[Octavian (Tavi) Gabor]

I wouldn't say. I do not know that. Either complementary or, you know, contradictory and so on. What I would say is that in the Waiting for Godot, the non encounter, as you call it, is there because the characters in the play already have a God which cannot be encountered and that is nothing to be done. The opening of the play is giving them the new God. They are waiting for Godot without actually waiting, because they already know that there is nothing to be done. So to say, so nothing can actually take place in their life. In. In the road towards Emmaus, there is something to be done. They go home. It's a different kind of path. The. The people on that path do have an orientation. And in. On the moment in which you start a path with an orientation and you're going some someplace where you are yourself home, many things can happen on the road. I do not know whether in Godot, in Beckett's play, it almost feels as if the encounter is not possible because of their initial orientation and the initial Orientation is towards nothingness. It's like, to me, at least that's what the play tells me, that the God is empty. And because their God is empty, their understanding of God is complete emptiness. I would say a propositional emptiness. Nothing is there to be done.

[Interviewer / Host]

But it's not because of them, in a way. It's not open, empty because of them. They are. They are open to something arising or for someone to show up, but it just doesn't. So they're somehow reduced to this useless, vain waiting.

[Octavian (Tavi) Gabor]

Yeah. We may have different readings of Godot, because to me, it's actually because of them, but because of them in the sense, because of their attitude. Me, they are open towards non happening. We can often claim that we are waiting for something and actually we're lying to ourselves, I would say. And to my mind, their attitude of waiting. And I think Beckett says that in the first line, you know, nothing to be done.

[Interviewer / Host]

Yeah, but that doesn't preclude that they still have a glimmer of hope that something will arise. But you see, that's. That's a. To me, that's a play with. About the lack and even the impossibility of grace of any gift. It's so, you know, that's, in a way, the absurd.

[Octavian (Tavi) Gabor]

Yeah, yeah, correct. But at the same time, I would say that this is because there is something lacking in the play. And that's what's lacking to me. You know, I always imagine. I always imagine that the play would end differently and the play would end by the two characters, Vladimir and Dragon, falling into each other's arms and start and starting laughing. And at that moment, nothing to be done disappears. It feels as if there is nothing that happens. You know, when two people fall into each other's arms and they start laughing about it, or they express some sort of joy. Nothing happens in some sense, but something else actually do. Does happen at the same time, that moment. The third is present and the third is. The third is the relationship that takes place. The two of them are toward, forgive me, towards the play, throughout the play. What am I saying? So the two of them, throughout the play seem to be together, but they are together as individuals. They are together like in this world. You know that we often criticize the world that has no communication, although people seem to be together, but they have no actual connection. And that's what I think Beckett describes is. Is the world of the absurd, of course, but the world of the absurd is not because the world itself is absurd, but rather because we approach it absurdly.

[Interviewer / Host]

Well, I think that there are. Sometimes we do. It's the absurdity is there not because we want it or because we lack in our choice or attitude. Sometimes it's something we cannot control or prevent or.

[Octavian (Tavi) Gabor]

Yeah, anyway, let me just say something, actually. I do not deny the ugliness of life. I actually believe that it appears in the book. So I do not deny the absurdity of life at the same time. But while this is true, that's why I think life is paradoxical. And I think in some sense this appears in the book, the paradox. While all of this is true, while life is full of darkness and life is filled with problems with absurdity, really, the other part is also true. You know, I genuinely believe that there can be no hell if you are embraced and someone else embraces you in return. That you can be in the darkest dungeons and you can have beauty in life. And that's the way in which I understand what beauty Father George Carter was saying. Blessed are you, prison. You know, when he says that, he doesn't say, oh my God, prison was so beautiful. I experienced so much life and light and beauty. Beauty was experienced within the absurd. So I'm not denying the reality, you know, the daily reality. I would say that life is always on a cross. We have the horizontal attitude and the vertical attitude and we remain within the absurd if we don't have the vertical one. We remain on this level if we put ourselves on the cross. So if we open our arms with a tendency of embracing somebody else, placing yourself on the cross for the other, then the absurd gets meaning.

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[Interviewer / Host]

Requires meaning. Yeah. Yeah. And you definitely present a lot of, you know, instances of these, of several people who have been literally in. In hell and in very difficult, more than difficult situations in. In. In the Gulag, in. In Romania. And it would be very hard to explain how they survived that, but they did more than just survive that. Right.

[Octavian (Tavi) Gabor]

And. Yeah, yeah. And I think there's no explanation, to be honest, in the sense in which there is no logical description or that's a path that you can follow. It's just. Yeah, they survived. You can just be a witness to it.

[Interviewer / Host]

And they also survived. But they also. It became the defining moment. Right. And it's. It struck me again when. When I reread recently the Journal of Joy by Nikolai Steinhardt. And I think joy is not a given for Steinhardt, it is an outcome. Right. It is a possibility because the situations through which he went through are not, let's say, a recipe for joy, but to the contrary, nevertheless, those situations really teach him the way to joy and help him on that route.

[Octavian (Tavi) Gabor]

Sure.

[Interviewer / Host]

Yeah. Okay. So let's maybe delve a bit into some of the essays that you have here. The first one I'd like to talk about maybe, is the Oasis of Freedom. And it's a beautiful essay about Dostoevsky, who I know is your favorite author by far, and you are currently writing a book. And I hope we get a chance to talk about that book, God willing, if you finish and publish it, which I hope is the case.

[Octavian (Tavi) Gabor]

I like the if. Yes.

[Interviewer / Host]

No, I mean, it's a positive. It's an encouraging if not doubting it. So in this chapter, you provide a beautiful comparison, Right. Between the two brothers, Alyosha and Ivan, and specifically about the question of encountering the others and the question of values. And you make the point that Alyosha is someone who becomes an oasis for other people. Right. Let me read from this chapter. Right. It's on page, I think 18, right. This doesn't mean that Alyosha has no values. In fact, it is precisely because he has values, because he has standards, that people find rest in him. If he did not, he would be a non place, a desert in which you cannot quench your thirst, A meaningless desert without an oasis, a difference in a desert in which you cannot. Can find being. So you go ahead to explain that Alyosha's values do not fix him, they give him an orientation. Right? So. But his values do not preclude an encounter with others who might not accept his values or might disagree with his values. Now, you claim then that his brother Ivan has no values, and that's on page 19. And basically you say Ivan allows all things, but he has no values. He wants to start with freedom outside of meaning. But in the absence of meaning, freedom and embrace are just as meaningless as anything else.

[Octavian (Tavi) Gabor]

Right, That's.

[Interviewer / Host]

I think it's the end of this chapter. Right. So I think the comparison between them offers some insights about. For us today, probably about the issue of what does it mean to have values. Right? Because sometimes having values makes you, you know, too. Too, let's say, committed to some. A position that will then turn you into someone who has. Becomes polar, you know, brings about polarization and. And tension. So what do you. Can you explain a bit? How do you see these two brothers and their different ways to have values?

[Octavian (Tavi) Gabor]

Sure. So for me, Alyosha Karamazov, the youngest brother in the Karamazo family, is a character. I mean, he has lots of, although not attributes. But there's many ways in which you can approach Alyosha. Let me put it this way. But this part about being an oasis for other is. Has always been attractive to me, primarily because I also appreciate people who can offer you rest, who, in the presence of whom you feel as if you do not have to run away from who you are or defend whatever you may believe, or doing whatever things that may change, that may create a mask about you. So, for example, for me, the elders in the Orthodox Church are this way. They offer places of rest in which you can actually be yourself with all the darkness that. That occupy your. Occupies your soul, you know, so it's not the same. That's. That's for me, Alyosha. Now, the other possibility would be other than Alyosha, and this is not Ivan or Ivana is to say, well, you can be however you want to be. It doesn't matter. Everyone's morality is right, so to say. And I don't think that's Alyosha, for example, you know. And to me that kind of thing is completely empty. You know, if. If I don't believe in anything, if I don't have an orientation, if I don't have some sort of value. Yes, or. But value, again, not value that defines me necessarily, but value to which I aspire, value in the presence of which I want to live, or value that I. I love, so to say. That's why I love the idea of philosophy. Philosopher is someone who loves wisdom, not someone who loves who has it. I consider Alyosha the same way. Alyosha is someone who loves values, not someone who says, I have those virtues, but rather is oriented towards them. So if you don't have values that you love, if you don't have an orientation, the fact that you accept me is meaningless to me. You accept anybody. There is no point in whether you accept me or not. You don't offer me rest, so to say. However, if you have certain values and your values. Maybe I am not comfortable with, but. Or your values show your values, become for me a potential mirror showing me where I am in life, and you still accept me. That's valuable. That to me shows personhood. And that's where I see Alyosha. Ivan, on the other hand, or Ivan, I often go between the two. Ivan is different. Ivan, prior to the moment in which he says, well, if there is no God, you can do anything. And that's the Ivan. Without values, there is no God, there are no values, you can do anything. He has his own values. And because of his own values, that in a different way than Alyosha has, because I know I said Ivan has no values, but prior to the idea that if there is no God, everything is permitted. He has standards that he believes can be imposed to people. And if those standards. Forgive me, if people do not adopt those standards, they are worthless. So for him, values are a tool for spiritual murder. In my mind, that's why he cannot accept the neighbor. That's why he says, you can love your neighbor only from a distance. And as you said, I think, a couple of days ago, that's the wonderful example of someone who loves humanity but cannot stand human beings or something like that. So there could, maybe. One could say that there are two, actually three different approaches to value. The two of them that I talk in the chapter are Ivan's and Alyosha. One of them who. Who loves values, who has an orientation. The other one, that's Alyosha, the other one who believes that he can be an embodiment of these values and requires from other people to be an embodiment of these values. And then there is a third approach, the one who really had no values whatsoever, who has no orientation whatsoever, who can say, you can be anything. And in fact, even that is a lie, because that is a value. You can be anything, or you. You know, and. But at the same time, you can be anything. It's a complete desert. There is no. There is no distinction in space if there are values. If you have orientation, there is a distinction in space. You move from something to something else, to. To diversity, so to say, if there are no values, there is no diversity. It's just meaningless.

[Interviewer / Host]

That. Yeah, that's. And it's fascinating how in the book, if I remember correctly, in the Brothers Karamazov, Ivan always seems to be very detached and uninvolved. Right. There is always an abstract attitude. Right. His values are abstract. They're not at all embodied. And he always is detached, whereas Alyosha always is sometimes, against his own will, dragged into all kinds of situations. And in a way, you can see how that can be frustrating for him. But I think his elder father, Zosima, really wants that for him, because here it's in a way, a necessary challenge to. To his beliefs, Right. That are somewhat. Maybe untested. Untested and rigid.

[Octavian (Tavi) Gabor]

Yeah. Ivan, I would say, has abstract values, but he wants them in you, while Alyosha is in love with values and accepts you however you have them. And I mean, Alyosha, who's the most moral guy in the book, if I can put it this way, is someone who, towards the end, says that he would help his brother to run away from prison, which is not necessarily something moral to do, but he is gonna help him do something like that. Why? Because of life. Because he knows that his brother cannot handle prison. It's not. He doesn't handle. Because he will die physically, but he will die spiritually. And life is more important. You know, the orientation towards life, so to say, is more important for him than the moral value of following the law. And this is not, by the way, an encouragement not to follow the law. In fact, I believe that Dalyosha would say that you have to follow the law. But there are certain moments, like in that one, when he's acknowledging the fact that his brother would disappear if he followed the law. That is to be in prison for something that he had not done, actually. Sorry, spoiler alert.

[Interviewer / Host]

So let's talk a bit about the chapter on which chapter is that on page 73, see a title. Yeah, Fragments with the Beautiful. Right, because it's a powerful chapter, right, in which you indeed start with one of these gruesome, horrible episodes in communist history, the pitest experiment. And giving the testimony of someone who went through that horrible experiment. Right, and survived it. But not just survived it. Right, because you can survive something and become a wreck. Right. But really that experiment transformed him into really a different person in a good way. And that's Father Roman Braga. And I wanted to read from this chapter a bit because I had a question about the connection between pain and suffering and what you call becoming pregnant with the beautiful. Our bodies. This is page 73. Our bodies go through events that we do not bring upon us, but to which we cannot say no unless we say no to what has a life within our body. There may be moments of despair, moments when we cry, I want my body back, I want my time back, or I want my freedom back. But all these moments disappear when we hear again, deep within us, the call of the beautiful, our child that is ours, but is also not ours in a deeper and more profound sense. This call of the beautiful brings upon us responsibility towards what precedes us. This call does not allow us to say yes to all our desires, but gives us the power to do violence to them. And we accept the pain experienced by the body with a new and surprising feeling of joy. And we are ready to embrace our new situation, that of a birth giver of beauty who has the potential to give birth but is not yet there. Slowly we open our arms to receive this beautiful, to offer ourselves to it. And without it, without even realizing, we take upon our shoulders our cross, our own personal cross, but also Christ's cross. For it is the beautiful, the kingdom which awaits to take life within us. It is by this daily violence that takes place in carrying our cross that we express our desire to fulfill what we are called, to be birth givers of beauty. And my question was about this transition between pain and beauty, right? The pain of the body that we talk about, suffering of the body and then becoming pregnant with the beautiful, as you. As you call it. What if that doesn't occur? What if the pain and suffering of the body become overwhelming and you don't reach that stage of becoming pregnant with a beautiful. Or why? Maybe I can also ask why for some people this does not occur, this transition?

[Octavian (Tavi) Gabor]

Well, I don't know. And I'm not saying that it. I'm not saying that it occurs to me or it occurs to some I would say that the text is a testimony again, in the sense that this is what I perceive in the life of Father Roman Braga, because it's about him and in the life of many others who went through the prison of Pitest, which is one of the most horrible prisons in Romania during communism, where people were persecuted with a purpose of changing their soul, so to say. And from becoming a per. From becoming from a person as they were before, you know, people who are in connection with others, becoming individuals who have no connection and who can do anything, any kind of evil thing, including persecuting their own. Their own best friends in the name of an idea, the communist idea. Because, you know, you would have to become a communist persecutor, so to say. But coming back to your question, if I. If I can tackle it in a different way, if I may. So I think there are moments in life, whether we talk about prison or we talk about something else, that can bring us to the edge of despair. And we all encounter them in different ways. Some people lose their child, some people go through horrible diseases, others are thrown into prison. Others just experience the radical nature of evil around them and they fall into despair and so on. And it may well be that with. During those moments, we actually do fall into a desperate state, if I can call it this way. Why does it happen? I do not know. It happens. I do not have an explanation. It's most likely because of the way in which our human minds work. But I also believe, again, and I don't have any proof for that other than my faith that we are not given more than we can bear. And even if at certain times we cannot bear certain things, perhaps we can bear them in a different way later on and so on. What I would say that the text is about is about the fact that the moment in which you actually fall into despair, that moment is the potential of acknowledging that you are indeed pregnant with the beautiful. And the beautiful, to me, is the kingdom that is the relation you have with other people, that each one of us is a potential co. Creator with God of the kingdom of God by renewing or by refashioning the relations between all of us that are already present. So I would. Because I don't, you know, I cannot talk about me because I don't like, you know, this. This book is, in some sense, it's not about me. It's about the people I encounter, so to say. I. I remember one of the. Actually, he was a Protestant pastor. I saw him on TV once one day talking about his suffering in communist prison. And he said, the moment in which the suffering is a great secret or a great something that you do not understand. And then when you have a persecutor, the most radical danger is the fact that you will lose your persecutor from humanity, that you will no longer see him as a human being. And at the moment in which you fall into despair, you may be at the moment in which you realize that if you do not understand him, your persecutor, you do not only use him, lose him, but you lose yourself as a human being. And that's why I call it a call. You know, there is a call within you, I think, that does not allow you to. Well, it does not allow you. It clearly allows certain people because become persecuted. But there is a call within you that I, and I hope at least that, you know, we can hear. And sometimes we may end. We may not be able to hear it, but that call is telling us that if we give up still hope, or still having hope, or still trying to make connections with persecutors, if we give that up, what we give up is our own humanity, and we give up our belonging to the kingdom, why there are moments when we don't hear it, it's a mystery. Andrea?

[Interviewer / Host]

Yeah. Thank you, David. This is not easy to comprehend, and in fact, it's probably a mystery, right? How this, the. How the beautiful dwells within us in spite of all the adversities and tragedies. And many of the stories that you refer to throughout the book somehow exemplify or point to the possibility thereof, right, as something that has occurred in some of these people's lives in the midst of the most dire difficulties and tragedies. So there is another story. I had a story or chapter that I had a question. In fact, I had a hard time following the argument. Is this one losing yourself, page 69. Losing yourself in the depths of your being.

[Octavian (Tavi) Gabor]

Oh, wow.

[Interviewer / Host]

And you talk there about these two forces and you say, here, I'm sure you see how funny this is. You cannot look at the other or the world unless you first see you in quotation mark, that is, you have given yourself a definition without even acknowledging it. There is no point in saying that others mistreat you and act towards you with the lack of love, respect, or fairness if you don't begin with you and you capitalize this, about which you have no idea, since it is still this conceptual you that beholds yourself, neither the you that you take yourself to be in looking at you, nor the you at which you are looking is genuinely so Please clarify this various yous and these various forces, the two forces that are at play within us.

[Octavian (Tavi) Gabor]

Perhaps if I just started with these two approaches in understanding. And one is I separate myself from the world and I look as an observer at an object. That's one possibility that the usual epistemic attitude and the other one is anytime I perceive the world, I am also part of the world, and I can never differentiate myself from the world. Then this way of explaining things may be easier to say and more approachable. And what I would say is that anytime I I believe that the world around me is horrible or the one around me is beautiful, I forget at the same time that the taste of the world is the way it is because I belong to the world and so I belong to the soup. So to say that the world is.

[Interviewer / Host]

So it is much easier for us to conceive ourselves as separate, right. Than as participating in it. Right. But on the other hand, we see, because I'm connecting this maybe to another story that you or another chapter. I am nobody for whom someone is on a cross. And when I read that, you know, you start with this beautiful childhood memory in which you go to the monastery, Sambhata Monastery, and you encounter Father Theophil Perean when he embraces you and takes you on his lap. And then the second part seems to me quite radical, right? And in a way somewhat in contrast with the first part. And you say in here, in the second part, if we are made in the image and likeness of God, then each one of us is made to be on the cross for the other. We were made to be our brother's keepers. We were made to be on the cross for our brothers. But the being together of these brothers, how good it is for brothers to be together, brings all crosses in a universal embrace. See, to me, the first part sounds very homey and natural, right? It is a monk, older monk, embracing a child. Very natural, very unphilosophical, very even unintentional. Whereas the second part seems to me what I mean for, like, is a hardcore very I was like, wow, I have to really get on the cross for others. Kind of hard.

[Octavian (Tavi) Gabor]

Yeah, maybe not kind of hard, true. But at the same time, you know, every Sunday I go to church before the Eucharist, I, like everybody else in the church, I say a prayer and it begins with stating that the first responsible for all things is me or the first sinful man. I believe that, you know, the eucharistic prayer of St. John Chrysostom it doesn't come to you right now, all the words, so to say, but I believe Nick and Francis, thou art Ray, the Christ, the son of the living God who came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the first. So if I truly say that I'm hoping I'm not going to go to church on Sunday and just lie just before the Eucharist, I say, well, no, I'm not the first. It's actually Adi, you know, or it's the guy next to me. If I am the first to me that is. And by the way, this idea is actually always appearing in Dostoevsky in one way or another, especially in the Brothers Karamazov novel. So if I am the first, I am primarily responsible for how the world is. And as I mentioned a couple of days ago, the book is also about responsibility and how we can understand responsibility in a non moral sense. Because I don't think the responsibility is in this idea. You know, I am first responsible and it's because of me that the world is terrible, but rather that I have to acknowledge that I am there and I contribute to the world. But I'm a nobody at the same time, you know, those two things, it's always a paradox. I'm a nobody, but nevertheless I'm first responsible. And how if I am a nobody, if I go to Christ to be embraced and I say, you know, Christ embraced me, but forget about all these people who make me angry at work or forget about all the other people who do not belong to my nation because, you know, historically they didn't like us so much then it's problematic. I concentrate on the self instead of concentrating on the own creation. I concentrate on my body instead of concentrating on giving birth within me to the world that's already given, that's already been created somehow by God. So in that sense I believe that when Father Theophil embraced me 40 something years ago, most likely, or 40 years ago, yes, I do believe he embraced the world. And I do believe that in some sense when I embrace somebody fully, I embrace the world and that I can embrace the world in a person, but I don't otherwise if I'm like Ivan, I want to embrace the world and help all the people, all the children who die. The world appears to each one of us in the present, you know, in whatever we encounter every day. And Father Theophil at that moment encountered me and he embraced me.

[Interviewer / Host]

But some embraces are harder than others, of course.

[Octavian (Tavi) Gabor]

Yeah, I mean it's much easier to.

[Interviewer / Host]

Embrace a little child.

[Octavian (Tavi) Gabor]

Of course. Yeah. And I am certain that I'm not able to embrace people the way I should. But I also know that Father Roman Braga, for example, embraced his persecutor. And Father John, whom we both know, once told me that he always prayed for his persecutor during proscomedia before the liturgy. You know, maybe I cannot do this, maybe, but other people can. God helped me to do it when. When it's needed.

[Interviewer / Host]

Maybe what you're talking about is only possible this if one is part of a greater scheme of things. And that scheme of things or framework is.

[Octavian (Tavi) Gabor]

No, Yeah.

[Interviewer / Host]

I did the liturgy. Right. And I should have also mentioned that that is a constant presence throughout these essays. Right. The fact that it somehow all comes together for you as you participate in the services in the different important moments of the life of the church. Right. And even if it's not possible, at least the attempt while you, let's say, perform that prayer. Right. If you really interiorize and realize that the radicality of that prayer, it's already a step towards. Right. The radicality of that or being a Christian. Right.

[Octavian (Tavi) Gabor]

Yeah. But I generally believe it's possible for all. I don't think it's possible just for people of a certain, you know, attitude of heart, I think at different levels. Because we all find ourselves at different levels in life, but not levels in the sense in which one is more superior than other, but rather different states, so to say, I think we all can. And sometimes we actually do participate in this. I honestly, you know, but you see, it's hard to.

[Interviewer / Host]

I think it's. Nevertheless, the challenge is very big because you see that, for example, on the one hand, we speak so much about diversity and inclusion. Nevertheless, we're probably very polarized, if not polarized, more polarized than ever, on the one hand. On the other hand, and we both know, let's say, the monastic tradition of the church, and we know how hard it is for people to be together. Right. People have this idealized view of monasticism. Well, they're all just in those beautiful pastoral setting and walking around all day and praying. Wow. It's so beautiful, so idealistic. And it's really not, because for them, it's very challenging to be day in and day out with the same people. And it only shows that the challenge is real. Right.

[Octavian (Tavi) Gabor]

I fully agree. Yeah, the challenge is real. I mean, but if it were not, if it was easy, then, you know, what's the point?

[Interviewer / Host]

Yeah. And that's why. So I'm contrasting it with the naivete of this DEI approach was like, let's just talk about this and things will get done. Well, it's not that easy just talking about it, correct?

[Octavian (Tavi) Gabor]

No, it's not that easy talking about it and in some sense making categories. It's problematic from the beginning, but. Yeah, right.

[Interviewer / Host]

Rhetorical or discursive categories. Before we end, I wanted to also ask you about the chapter on failure, and that is, in a way, a review of a book that was published by another Romanian, by Costica Bradazan, in praise of failure.

[Octavian (Tavi) Gabor]

Correct. Yeah.

[Interviewer / Host]

And so did you find his book problematic or did you find his book necessary or a good reminder for. Actually, for our current time? Right, because it was a good reminder that failure is part of life. Right?

[Octavian (Tavi) Gabor]

Yeah. Yes. And I thoroughly, actually enjoy his book, maybe except the part about death, but other than that part, so to say, because to me, that is not a failure. It's not an ultimate failure, it's something else. But other than that part, I. I thoroughly enjoyed his book, especially because the reminder that failure is part of life can save us from many things, including from. From becoming Ivan's, you know, because Ivan doesn't want to fail. Doesn't want to fail. Ivan doesn't want to. Doesn't want God to fail, actually. He doesn't want anybody to fail. He wants perfection. And if we want too much perfection, we can become perfect killers.

[Interviewer / Host]

And isn't, as you mentioned, that. Isn't that true, that Alyosha somehow believes himself to be a failed monk?

[Octavian (Tavi) Gabor]

Stonehole, I didn't think about it. But you're right. Alyosha believes of himself as being a.

[Interviewer / Host]

Failed monk, and even Zosima is a failed saint.

[Octavian (Tavi) Gabor]

Correct. You're right. You're right. These people have failed. Yeah, you're right. I didn't think about this, but you're right. Yeah, well, and they don't resent it. That's the good part about it, you know, they don't resent what is given to them, except one moment in Aliyosha when he resents the fact that his beloved Father Zosima was attacked after life by people who mistreated him in judgment. But other than that, they do not resent failure, they accept it. And maybe that's the secret to find joy in. In failure. I mean.

[Interviewer / Host]

So you. You provide a beautiful summary of. Of Costika Breda Son's various chapters. And maybe one passage that would be worth reading is found on page 123. Any totalitarian regime defines the mightiness of the nation, creating boundaries for it and eliminating the elements that do not belong to it, external and internal. Regardless of what perfect idea was we create as idols, we will always leave behind us a pile of dead bodies. Brother Tsahn's warning is accurate. Be careful what you wish for. Think of anything. Classless society, ideal state, equality. They are all admirable, as lofty as they are well meaning. But we should never lose sight of what they are. Political fictions, not some mended version of the real world, but a wild act of imagination, A world into itself, almost completely cut off from political reality. And this is a quote from his book, from Costica's book. But then your critique, if I may say, of the book is on page 125. Whereas you say, one may wonder, why would a book on failure end with a suicide? With this attempt to end all humiliating failures and us as humans at the same time, why not return to Dostoevsk, his Grand Inquisitor, who accuses Christ of the failure to provide meaning to an entire humanity or to the death on the cross and his disciples failure to initiate initially recognizing it, the ultimate redemption of failure in the renunciation of the will. You fail because you want to avoid it. Failure does teach humility, and this is your punchline. But generally in humility is not the opposite of success. It is the embracing of one's nature and being delighted in it. Yeah, so please comment on this.

[Octavian (Tavi) Gabor]

So you began with talking about. About regimes that have. Have brought murder in millions of people. You know, I think both communism and fascism begin with perfection. And they have the idea of a certain society that is perfect. Actually, even the imagery that they have proposed. And I'm sure you remember from your youth, you know, like the worker for the communist or the young blonde man for the fascist and so on. So the idea of perfection usually brings death, I would say. As for the other part, the one about humility and success, you know, as I mentioned before, actually throughout. Throughout our discussion, people often think in two terms, this or that success or humility. And I think humility is really not the opposite of success, but in some sense, you know, embracing our nature and being joyful. You mentioned before the journal of Joy, of Steinhardt, even that is about joy. But Steinhardt does not portray himself as being this wonderful, moral human being who walks the path of values or who teaches others what the righteous life should be like, or how you should act in society, or how you should treat others. It's about us human beings being all of us in this world, trying to figure out how to live this life and acknowledging after all that we are no more than just a little bit of dirt. A little bit of dirt that has solid within it or some sort of spirit and going on and trying to maybe create beauty in other human beings by the interactions we have. I don't know. But actually, when you were reading, I remember something else. I think there's someone else who is in the danger of being, of being perfect, of not failing. And that is Abraham. Abraham. And sorry in Kierkegaard, I think shows that. That Abraham, if he went toward the mountain, Abraham, in the Isaac story, Abraham and Isaac story, when God asked Abraham to sacrifice his son, his only one, the one he loves, Isaac and to sacrifice him on the mountain, he will show him off without giving him any reason. One possible way to interpret the story is that Abraham does not want to fail his God. And if that's Abraham, that Abraham is a murderer because he chooses God. But if Abraham is what I think Kierkegaard suggests, a human being who is acknowledged of his own failure and who doesn't exactly know what the right thing to do. But he knows that if he chooses not to go, he loses God. If he chooses to go, he loses his son. He will just continue to do something going on towards the mountain in complete humility and I hope in complete prayer to be revealed what the truth is without actually knowing what truth is at any moment in his life. So in some sense, I think that is the road to Emmaus too. You know, you go towards home hoping against hope and hoping against all evidence that somehow truth will be revealed to you, but never believing that you are someone who holds that truth or who is the owner of truth.