Podcast Summary

Podcast: New Books Network
Episode: Olivia Wolfgang-Smith, "Mutual Interest" (Bloomsbury, 2025)
Date: September 29, 2025
Host: Chris Holmes (Burned by Books)
Guest: Olivia Wolfgang-Smith

Episode Overview

This episode features an in-depth interview with author Olivia Wolfgang-Smith about her historical novel, Mutual Interest. Set in fin de siècle New York, the novel explores the intersections of queer identity, societal transformation, and the birth of modern capitalism. Smith and Holmes discuss her creative inspirations, narrative style, the historical setting, core characters, and the themes of queer kinship, secrecy, and ambition.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Allure of Historical New York

[05:34–08:52]

• Why set the novel in turn-of-the-century New York?

  • Smith was drawn to the period as a moment of rapid societal and technological change, marking the creation of the New York subway and the city’s transformation into its modern self.
  • “If you had to pick one moment, the moment that the New York that we know today kind of became recognizable, it’s just that time period.” — Olivia Wolfgang-Smith [06:24]

• Smith emphasized that character drives her historical fiction. She enjoys reconstructing the material culture and lived texture of the past to immerse her characters in it.

• Dramatic Irony in Historical Fiction:

  • Research allows for playful dramatic irony—writers and readers know more than the characters possibly could, amplifying emotional resonance.

2. Outcasts, Triads & the Appeal of Queer Family

[08:52–11:19, 17:24–20:48, 21:59–26:09]

• Each central character (Vivian, Oscar, Squire) is an outsider, both to family and mainstream society.

• The choice to focus on a “triad of outcasts” rather than a single individual allowed for “infinitely spiraling potential for both positive and negative complications.” [09:20]

• Smith wanted to queer the “love triangle,” centering instead on intentional, chosen family—what she and the hosts refer to as a "polycule" that serves as cover and shelter for queer identity.

  “It felt like a relief to me as a writer to let them find each other... there’s this relief and surprise to find that there’s this other option that they find as they reach community.” — Olivia Wolfgang-Smith [19:21]

• The novel shows how secrecy creates both possibility and limitation for queer community, echoing archival gaps in queer history.

3. Squire, Neurodivergence & the Subway

[11:04–15:57]

• Squire is depicted as neurodivergent—likely on the autism spectrum, if using modern terminology.

• His obsessiveness—especially with the subway’s creation—frustrates family, but proves invaluable as a business trait and a metaphor for “irrational” genius in capitalism.

• Smith’s affection for the New York subway (and its persistent infrastructure from 1904) permeates the novel as both symbol and setting.

  “It is also just miraculous to think about the fact that it was all built starting in 1904. That’s amazing.” — Olivia Wolfgang-Smith [15:47]

• The subway serves as both a plot linchpin (a site for business innovation) and a metaphor for continuous, improvisational adaptation.

4. Kinship, Secrecy, and Queer Survival

[17:24–27:07]

• The partners form a chosen family that both defies and is shaped by societal norms. Their public “marriage” is a ruse for acceptance and professional advancement, yet secrecy is both their shield and their prison.

• The limits of secrecy, passing, and the emotional toll of hidden lives is a persistent theme.

  “To what extent a lot of this arrangement is victorious or sad... really living on their own terms with this huge caveat that it is not... it is a complete secret.” — Olivia Wolfgang-Smith [25:16]

• Smith explicitly draws on queer history (“I always point people toward Hugh Ryan’s great book When Brooklyn Was Queer” — [22:37]) to balance intimacy and the hazards of hiding.

5. The Narrative Voice – Queer Edith Wharton

[27:07–36:40]

• The novel is written with a strong, omniscient, early 20th-century-inflected narrative voice, described by Smith as inspired by Edith Wharton, especially The House of Mirth.
• Smith reads a substantial passage exemplifying this witty, knowing tone ([28:28–33:03]).
• The voice is described as “intrusive,” “affectionately making such fun” of its characters, with the “narrator knowing more than any of the current characters.”
• The narrator’s viewpoint sometimes echoes an alternative Vivian—what she could have become in a different era.

6. Queer Awakening & Capitalism

[36:50–40:33]

• Uniquely, Vivian’s queer awakening coincides with her entry into—and mastery over—industrial capital, a pairing rarely dramatized.

• Vivian serves as a critique of girl-boss/feminist archetypes: she’s fiercely driven, but willing to exploit others for her own advancement.

  “She wants to be in charge of the entire world and... she would gladly and does throughout the book, walk all over many other women with ambitions in order to try to, you know, get what she wants out of life.” — Olivia Wolfgang-Smith [39:32]

• The novel interrogates the compatibility—or lack thereof—between individual self-actualization, queer community, and the structures of capitalism.

7. The Blackmail Party – Comedy, High Stakes, Satire

[40:33–43:03]

• A pivotal late-book scene features a party at which multiple blackmail schemes, plans, and social tensions collide. The result is both comic and suspenseful, likened to physical comedy or farce, yet with real stakes.

  “Even though the stakes are high existentially for these individual characters, there’s a little bit of humor to it. Just in the sense of, like, can you believe this is how life works?” — Olivia Wolfgang-Smith [42:00]

8. History as Web: The Year Without a Summer, Volcanoes & Bicycles

[43:25–47:29]

• The book opens with the aftermath of the 1815 Mount Tambora eruption—“the year without a summer”—which became a running thread in the novel.

• The global climate disaster led to famine and death, but also the invention of the bicycle (due to the death of horses).

• Smith uses this as a metaphor for unpredictable chains of cause and effect and the complications of historical narrative.

  “There’s no way to tell even the smallest, most straightforward story about life without everything spiraling into a crazy thing that is way too complicated to boil down to a positive or a negative or a direct line of cause and effect.” — Olivia Wolfgang-Smith [46:26]

• Listeners learned about curiosities like “bicycle face”—an absurd diagnosis that stigmatized women’s cycling.

9. Current Reading Recommendations

[49:20–53:22]

• Olivia Wolfgang-Smith offers book recommendations:
  • Sick and Dirty by Michael Koreski — Nonfiction on Hollywood’s queer “golden age.”
  • Damon Runyon’s Guys and Dolls and Other Writings — Humorous short fiction about 1930s New York.
  • Anna North’s Bog Queen — Literary murder mystery involving ancient bog bodies (and, delightfully, a moss narrator).

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the power of the narrator:
  “If you’re feeling unconfident while drafting, highly recommend having a very, very confident, intrusive, omniscient narrator.”
  — Olivia Wolfgang-Smith [33:52]

• On chosen family:
  “It felt like a relief to me as a writer to let them find each other... I’m hopeful that that is mirrored in their experience as characters too.”
  — Olivia Wolfgang-Smith [19:21]

• On the subway:
  “A lot of it hasn’t changed that much since then... kind of beautiful and amazing to me.”
  — Olivia Wolfgang-Smith [15:47]

• On historiography:
  “Looking back in archives, it’s very tricky to know what was really happening versus what was written down.”
  — Olivia Wolfgang-Smith [26:09]

• On narratorial style:
  “Usually... I’ll say that it’s a queer Edith Wharton pastiche.”
  — Olivia Wolfgang-Smith [33:51]

• On queer history inspo:
  “I always point people toward Hugh Ryan’s great book When Brooklyn Was Queer if they read Mutual Interest and are interested in actually knowing more about actual queer history in New York City.”
  — Olivia Wolfgang-Smith [22:37]

Timestamps for Key Segments

| Time | Segment/Topic | |-----------|------------------------------------------------------------| | 05:34 | Why fin de siècle New York? Historical research insights | | 08:52 | Outcasts, queer love triangles, and chosen family | | 11:04 | Squire’s neurodivergence and obsessive personality | | 15:08 | The subway as metaphor and setting | | 17:24 | The trio’s families vs. their created queer family | | 21:59 | Structures that permitted secret queer life | | 25:16 | Secrecy, passing, and their costs | | 27:07 | Narrative voice, read-aloud passage | | 36:50 | Queer awakening vs. capitalist structures | | 40:33 | The comic “blackmail party” scene | | 43:25 | The year without a summer and the history-metaphor | | 49:20 | Book recommendations (Koreski, Runyon, North) | | 53:22 | Plug for Mutual Interest and closing remarks |

Tone and Language Notes

• The host is warm, enthusiastic, and well-read, frequently expressing admiration for Smith’s characters and style.
• Smith is articulate, self-deprecating, and analytical, often grounding her creative decisions in both literary homage and personal affect.

Conclusion

Listeners new to Mutual Interest will come away with a sense of the novel’s lush, witty historical world—one that both interrogates and celebrates queer kinship, and the networks of secrecy and invention that make survival and love possible in hostile times. Smith’s narrative style, inspired by Edith Wharton, brings both affectionate satire and emotional depth, and the conversation is rich with literary and historical insight as well as practical glimpses of the writing process.

Recommended for readers interested in: historical fiction, queer history, New York City, found/chosen family, and literary narrative craft.