Podcast Summary: "On Democracy and Bullshit with Hélène Landemore"

New Books Network | Host: Caleb Zakrin | Guest: Hélène Landemore
Release Date: November 18, 2025

Overview

This episode of the New Books Network (Truth About Bullshit series) features an in-depth conversation between host Caleb Zakrin and Hélène Landemore, Yale professor of political science and author of Open Democracy: Reinventing Popular Rule for the 21st Century. The discussion explores the concept of democracy in theory and practice, the pervasive problem of "bullshit" in political discourse, the limits of representative democracy, and Landemore’s vision for “open democracy.” The episode ties together philosophical analysis, practical insights from recent democratic experiments, and contemporary challenges such as misinformation and the disruptive impact of AI.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Hélène Landemore's Intellectual Journey

• [01:46] Landemore shares her French upbringing, background in philosophy and political science, her academic path from Harvard to Yale, and her evolving interest in democratic theory and the role of technology in politics.
• Early works on David Hume and democratic reason shaped her critical stance on existing political systems.

“I probably reached the point at which I was becoming very, very skeptical that the thing we call democracy today is actually a democracy. And I wanted to kind of start from scratch almost and question the assumption that our entire worlds are built on…” — Hélène Landemore [04:01]

2. Rethinking the Meaning of Democracy

• [04:00-07:17] Landemore critiques modern representative democracy as fundamentally flawed and rooted in intentional design choices that favor elites.
• She distinguishes between the “republics” intended by the framers and true “demos-kratos” (people’s power).
• The historical conflation of representation with elections marginalizes alternative ways citizens could exercise political authority.

3. Inspiration from Iceland: Random Selection in Constitutional Reform

• [07:17-12:12] Landemore describes Iceland’s 2011 constitutional reform process—randomly selecting citizens for foundational input and drafting, opening deliberations to the public, resulting in a referendum-approved draft.
• This “lottocratic” experiment challenged prevailing wisdom that constitution-making should be elite, closed, and technical.

“If they can do that for constitutional law, maybe we could do that for ordinary law as well... Maybe there's a way our law should be more popular that way. Popularly written, popularly contributed to, and perhaps also more legible if at all possible.” — Hélène Landemore [11:30]

4. Limitations of Representative (Electoral) Democracy

• [12:12-20:03] The problem with elections as the sole mechanism for democratic representation is the oligarchic or plutocratic bias they introduce, no matter the country.
• Empirical evidence across democracies shows policies align more closely with the preferences of the rich.
• Even in high-trust, low-corruption places like Norway, elites are overrepresented and blind to other social realities.

“...policies that come out of so-called democratic governments are always more congruent with the preferences of the rich than those of the poor... I think that equilibrium only works if you invisibilize another option, which of course is central to my book, that of lot.” — Hélène Landemore [14:30]

• Landemore proposes random selection (sortition) as a complement or alternative, increasing both fairness and diversity among decision-makers.

5. Challenges: Internal and External to Democratic Systems

• [20:03-27:16] Zakrin and Landemore discuss problems posed by inequality, lack of genuine representation, and external shocks—like globalization and AI.
• Landemore argues that both historical and emerging crises—handled by insulated elites—lead to policies that ignore or misunderstand the concerns of ordinary citizens.

“Right now they're [governments] shaping [AI development] in a direction that will benefit only a few corporate actors, a small section of society. And it's again, because I think that these people in Congress... are too detached and... bought by special interests and lobbyists. I think the common man has no voice in this process right now.” — Hélène Landemore [25:20]

6. Direct Democracy: Temptations and Limits

• [27:16-34:01] The allure of direct democracy is discussed, but Landemore warns against naive versions relying only on referenda or mass votes without deliberation or agenda-setting safeguards.
• She points to historical examples (e.g., Second French Republic) where the lack of intermediary, deliberative structure quickly led to anti-democratic outcomes.

“You can very quickly end democracy with the use of direct democracy mechanisms that are not inserted in a more complex vision of democracy that for me needs to be deliberative, open, structured and representative in a different way than electoral democracy.” — Hélène Landemore [31:11]

7. Principles of Open Democracy

• [34:01-36:30] Landemore’s vision of open democracy draws on ancient practices (Athens, Viking parliaments) and open-source analogies—anyone should, in principle, access power and propose laws.
• Actualized through rotating, randomly selected citizen bodies with structured deliberative processes.

“So the idea of openness really comes from... ancient Athens, classical Athens, with its open assemblies... How do we make democracy today be open like that?” — Hélène Landemore [34:11]

8. Modern Examples of Openness and Citizen Deliberation

• [36:30-43:17]
  • France: The Yellow Vest movement, Macron’s national debate, and the 2019–20 Citizens’ Convention on Climate (150 randomly selected citizens).
  • Switzerland: A long tradition of referenda and citizen initiatives, though now lacking a strong sortition/deliberative element.
  • Taiwan: Digital crowdsourcing (e.g., POLIS platform) to find consensus across large populations.

“That was pretty open if you want, as a method. Now, the impact has been very diluted [...] but I think this was truly innovative and interesting and needs to be replicated.” — Hélène Landemore [38:32]

9. Competency and Susceptibility to Manipulation: The Bullshit Problem

• [43:17-53:42] Zakrin presents a classic objection: that ordinary citizens lack the policy knowledge and are vulnerable to manipulation—by demagogues, media, or new technologies like AI.
• Landemore forcefully responds:
  • Citizens’ ignorance is in large part a consequence of institutional design (electoral systems don't expect more).
  • Deliberative mini-publics (like the French convention) show citizens can acquire deep expertise.
  • Elected representatives themselves often lack technical expertise, outsource lawmaking, and are subject to their own biases.
  • True democratic empowerment requires trust in collective intelligence, not individual brilliance.

“If you actually fundamentally believe that [citizens aren’t competent], I just don't know that you can claim to be a Democrat... when you give [citizens] the time, the space, the conditions, the incentives to learn more, because it's also about learning... they became very competent.” — Hélène Landemore [45:45 & 47:35]

“I think democracy is about decentralizing. Power is about dispersing. Power is about rotating power.” — Hélène Landemore [58:18]

10. Democratic Ethos and Education

• [53:42-59:33]
  • Landemore describes building collective assignments and collaborative learning into her Yale courses to help elite students experience the power of group deliberation.
  • She stresses humility, learning from others’ perspectives, and vigilant resistance to the accumulation of hierarchical power, both politically and personally.

11. Preview of Forthcoming Book: Politics Without Politicians

• [61:46-64:41] Landemore’s next book, Politics Without Politicians: The Case for Citizen Rule (Feb 2026), moves beyond theory to spotlight the emotional and transformative side of citizen engagement—highlighting real stories, empowerment, and civic friendship.

“They discover that there is something like solidarity, friendship, civic friendship, and a form of love that is possible in politics. And that, to me, is such an alien proposition... but that's what was happening.” — Hélène Landemore [62:45]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Elite Bias in Lawmaking:
  “Policies that come out of so-called democratic governments are always more congruent with the preferences of the rich than those of the poor... It says something about the accumulative advantage of economic groups and the top 10% of the population.” — Landemore [14:30]

• Against Technocratic Elitism:
  “Let’s not romanticize the competence of elected representatives... They spend way too much time raising money, which is not exactly a skill that is that crucial to doing good governance.” — Landemore [49:17]

• On the Transformative Power of Citizen Deliberation:
  “I've seen seeing people come in who were shy... but by the end of the process, at the end of the nine months, they come in and they speak loudly and proudly and they have things to say and they want to go and be engaged in even electoral politics going forward. They realize, you know what, it's not that hard and I'm capable, I can do this.” — Landemore [53:04]

Key Timestamps

• [01:05] Introduction of Landemore; her background and academic journey
• [04:01] Why Landemore believes current democracies are not truly democratic
• [07:17] Iceland’s constitutional experiment and its impact on Landemore’s thinking
• [12:12] Flaws of representative democracy and the case for random selection
• [20:03] The universal plutocratic bias of electoral systems
• [27:16] Direct democracy: potentials and pitfalls
• [34:01] The “open democracy” model: principles and visions
• [36:30] Modern examples: France, Switzerland, Taiwan
• [43:17] Technocratic objections, AI, and susceptibility to manipulation
• [45:39] Landemore’s rebuttal to the “competency” argument; defending citizen deliberation
• [53:42] Teaching democracy and the value of collective intelligence
• [61:46] Preview of Politics Without Politicians and its new emotional focus
• [64:41] Closing reflections on the future of democracy

Conclusion

This episode provides a thought-provoking critique of current democratic systems and a compelling case for reimagining democracy in more open, participatory, and deliberative forms. Landemore argues persuasively against elite monopoly on political decision-making, demonstrates the feasibility and value of citizen assemblies, and calls for a renewed faith in ordinary people’s capacity for political judgment—especially when given proper institutional supports. The conversation, blending academic rigor with real-world case studies, provides both a framework and practical inspiration for anyone interested in the future (and preservation) of democracy.