Podcast Summary: New Books Network – Patrick Grace, "Deviant" (U Alberta Press, 2024)

Date: October 15, 2025
Host: Holly Gattery
Guest: Patrick Grace, Poet and Author of Deviant
Episode Focus: An in-depth conversation with Patrick Grace about his debut full-length poetry collection, Deviant, exploring queer self-discovery, fear, intimacy, violence, and the complexities of style and memory.

Episode Overview

This episode delves into Patrick Grace’s Deviant, a poetry collection charting a raw, intimate journey through queer self-discovery from childhood to adulthood. The conversation addresses themes of fear, the interplay of light and darkness, violence in intimate relationships—particularly within queer contexts—and the unique, stylistic breadth of Grace’s poetry. Holly Gattery and Grace discuss the book’s origins, formal experimentation, and specific poems, with readings and thoughtful reflection on writing from trauma, the challenge of cruelty, and the importance of representation.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Origins of the Collection and Central Themes

(04:34–07:56)

• Grace's Intentions: The collection compiles poems written over years, investigating queer identity, fear, love, grief and the experience of psychological abuse in intimate same-sex relationships.
• On "Deviant": The title encapsulates both the historic (queer as deviant) and the literal (deviating from expected behavior in relationships). It’s not a text reference but a summation of thematic intent.

  “Fear is a really interesting emotion that people don’t want to talk about because it’s uncomfortable… I like fear. I like reading scary things. I like writing about uncomfortable things.” — Patrick Grace (06:02)

• Representation: He notes a gap in Canadian literature exploring queer relationships where there is violence or gaslighting, thus motivating his book.

2. Fear as Theme & Experience

(07:56–13:16)

• Not Fearless, But Fear-Filled: Grace and Gattery discuss the importance of neither ignoring fear nor presenting its overcoming as a given.
• Personal History: Grace describes how growing up closeted in the 1990s, amidst societal and self-imposed repression, instilled ongoing fear, often intensified by media representations or lack thereof.

  “I didn’t want this book to be triumphant…there wasn’t a solution… Maybe that’s just the publishing side—that they want you to have some kind of light or hope at the end.” — Patrick Grace (11:11)

• Form and Tone: The collection is intentionally unresolved—ending in darkness, though the publisher requested a glimmer of hope.

3. The Motif of Yellow/Gold

(13:16–15:39)

• Recurring Image: Holly notices and praises the recurring presence of yellow and gold in the poems as "slats of light in the dark," contrasting with the dark thematic currents.
• Grace’s Response: The motif was intentional, representing something magical and hopeful amidst darkness.

  “I think maybe that's the light in the darkness—not to be super, totally cliché, but maybe that's a little bit of it... I was always fascinated by things glowing in the dark, bright lights in the dark—that contrast.” — Patrick Grace (14:38)

4. Stylistic Agility

(15:39–20:16)

• Formal Experimentation: Gattery remarks on the collection’s mix of accessible, conventional styles and wildly experimental, abstract poems.
• Grace’s Approach: As the book progresses—mirroring emotional and relational unraveling—the poems "disintegrate" formally, with disrupted structure, diminished punctuation, and increased spatial play.

  “Can you throw spaces in there? Can you put a bunch of slashes in between where you would normally break the line? It's fun to experiment. And I put these poems in here purposely to experiment with the reader and kind of turn everything on its head as it went along to the end.” — Patrick Grace (19:23)

5. Poetry Readings: "Full Blown," "someday you will ache," "A cone of light on my bare stomach"

(22:46–30:26)

• "Full Blown" (22:55): A vivid, emotionally-charged poem blending childhood memory, bodily experience, and identity.

  "My insides chime their separate lakes / Full blown ache in summer..." — Patrick Grace, reading from "Full Blown" (23:37)

• Discussion on language: The use of the rare word "shavu," inspired by poet Carla Funk’s advice to seek uncommon words.
• "someday you will ache" (26:19): Title inspired by a Courtney Love lyric; addresses themes of danger, vulnerability, and repetition.

  "Not every driver wanted me dead that summer. Broken yellow lights. I played chicken on the highway. And little by little, the stars sped up. The men slowed down..." (27:04)

• "A cone of light on my bare stomach" (28:13): Reflection on childhood, memory, and the mutability of recollection.

  "Old toys down crumbling holes in the porch. The kids next door soared on a new swing set..." (28:20)

6. Cruelty, Gaslighting, and Systemic Dismissal

(30:26–35:14)

• Acknowledging, not Theorizing, Cruelty: Grace discusses how cruelty—a “gleeful anger”—appears imprinted in childhood and adult relationships.
• Violence in Queer Relationships: He makes explicit the difficulty in bringing forward non-physical, psychological, and online forms of violence to authorities, often due to lack of representation and a desire not to cast further stigma on queer communities.

  "It was stalking. It was done, a lot of it, through social media and...text messages. There was no physical chasing...But in a psychological way...your phone almost turns against you every time it rings..." — Patrick Grace (33:38)

7. What’s Next for Patrick Grace

(35:21–37:33)

• Current Projects: Grace is working on childhood-focused poetry, especially memories of his old East Vancouver house. His writing is deeply affected by the recent death of his mother, prompting reflection on regression to childhood and shared family memory.

  “A large part of what I'm writing right now is about this break-in and kind of imagining how it happened and who did it. It's nice to go back to childhood. It's nice to write about these things.” — Patrick Grace (36:27)

• Recent and Upcoming Publications: Poems forthcoming in Pinhole Poetry; large creative output following his mother’s death.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “I like reading scary things. I like writing about uncomfortable things.”
  (Patrick Grace, 06:02)

• “I didn’t want this book to be triumphant… there wasn’t a solution… Maybe that’s just the publishing side—that they want you to have some kind of light or hope at the end.”
  (Patrick Grace, 11:11)

• “There's always this sort of light or something's glowing… I think as a kid, I was always really fascinated by things glowing in the dark, bright lights in the dark, that contrast.”
  (Patrick Grace, 14:38)

• “You actually don't know what you're going to get next. Every poem is a total surprise. And I do mean this as the best kind of compliment.”
  (Holly Gattery, 17:28)

• “Can you throw spaces in there? Can you put a bunch of slashes in between where you would normally break the line? It's fun to experiment.”
  (Patrick Grace, 19:23)

Timestamps for Key Segments

| Segment | Timestamp | |---------|------------------| | Introduction & Author Bio | 01:35–03:03 | | Origins & Themes | 04:34–07:56 | | On Fear & Process | 07:56–13:16 | | Imagery: Yellow/Gold | 13:16–15:39 | | Style Discussion | 15:39–20:16 | | “Full Blown” Poem Reading | 22:46–24:43 | | Use of Uncommon Words | 25:12–25:56 | | “someday you will ache” Poem | 26:19–28:12 | | “A cone of light...” Poem | 28:13–30:26 | | Cruelty & Systemic Dismissal | 30:26–35:14 | | Current/Future Work | 35:21–37:33 |

Additional Notes

• The episode balances deeply personal stories with broader literary and social critique, especially regarding the silence around violence in queer relationships.
• The tone is warm, intimate, and respectful, with mutual admiration between host and guest, and a focus on nurturing creativity.
• Grace’s readings demonstrate his formal range and showcase the evocative power of his writing.

Conclusion

This episode offers a moving, vivid exploration of Deviant and the personal, cultural, and literary territory it spans. Listeners will come away with a greater understanding of what it means to write from, and about, fear and cruelty—especially in marginalized contexts—while finding hope, surprise, and creative spark in the darkness.

Pick up a copy of Patrick Grace's Deviant (U Alberta Press, 2024) at your preferred bookseller or library.