Podcast Summary: Peter Newell, "States of Transition: From Governing the Environment to Transforming Society" (Cambridge UP, 2025)

Podcast: New Books Network
Host: Pauline Heinrichs
Guest: Peter Newell
Date: December 13, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode explores Peter Newell's new book, States of Transition: From Governing the Environment to Transforming Society. In conversation with host Pauline Heinrichs, Newell delves into the evolving role of the state in addressing environmental crises and societal transformation, unpacking the nuances of state power, the interplay of multiple state forms, and the critical need to transcend binary debates about state efficacy. The episode situates theoretical arguments within contemporary global politics—militarization, energy transitions, democratic legitimacy, and the future of welfare—all while grappling with the complex realities of climate governance.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Genesis & Purpose of the Book

• Why This Book, Why Now?

  • Newell frames his work as a response to the prevailing limitations in sustainability transition literature, where the focus is narrowly cast on industrial policy or innovation, neglecting the full breadth of state power.
  • Quote:
    "I set myself the slightly ambitious task of thinking that through—like, what would it mean... to take all aspects of state power seriously?" (04:17)

• Moving Beyond Binaries

  • Newell pushes against simplistic 'good state/bad state' narratives, emphasizing nuanced analysis of the state’s diverse roles and the differentiation across global contexts.

2. Multiplicity and Relationality of States

• Conceptualizing Multiple States

  • Newell underlines the contradictions between different state functions (e.g., the entrepreneurial vs. welfare state), and the frequent institutional 'fudges' wrought by these internal conflicts.
  • He situates states within an "uneven global political economy," highlighting both historical differentiation and current global constraints.
  • Quote: "There's multiplicity at that level... But then I guess bringing in a more international relations perspective is also locating states within that sort of uneven global political economy." (06:50)

• Relational Theory of the State

  • The book foregrounds a relational approach, treating states not as isolated units but as entities embedded in social, economic, and ecological webs.
  • Quote:
    "There is ongoing political work by elites, states and capital and others to try and preserve their power and privilege constantly..." (10:38)
  • Includes not only inter-state and state-society relations, but also the "relations with more-than-human nature." (11:54)

3. The Entrepreneurial State & Innovation

• Role and Limits of the Entrepreneurial State

  • Newell critiques the dominant narrative where the state ‘derisks’ innovation for private actors—investing public resources to make ventures safe for private profit, often leaving the deeper transformative potential underexplored.
  • He advocates for the democratization of innovation: moving from top-down, mission-driven approaches to supporting grassroots and community-led innovation.
  • Quote:
    "You do all the hard work... and then the investors come in when it's just the easy bit about putting some money on the table." (17:32)
    • [Example: Kenya geothermal energy, India agricultural biotechnology]

• The Need for Exnovation

  • Newell spotlights the importance of "exnovation": not just fostering the new, but deliberately phasing out unsustainable technologies and practices.
  • Policy Levers: e.g., French ban on short-haul flights; 'choice editing' by the state. (19:56)

4. Industrial Policy: Centralization vs. Democratization

• Balancing State Guidance and Inclusivity
  • The tension between necessary top-down industrial policy (to transition away from unsustainable sectors) and the risks of over-centralization or insufficient democratic engagement.
  • Quote:
    "You can't be this sort of state-knows-best... it has to be engaged: what are the values that are going to guide this transition? Who’s going to be affected?" (24:30)
  • Argues for subsidiarity—empowering decision-making at the lowest possible level for accountability and responsiveness.

5. The Military State and Rethinking Security

• Militarization and Environmental Transition

  • Newell critiques the use of security narratives to justify fossil expansion and military budgets, observing how uncertainty is used selectively in both climate and military domains.
  • Advocates for broadening the security lens: from narrow national defense to protection of the biosphere and basic livelihood security.
  • Quote:
    "What is to be secured is the biosphere... there will be a role for militaries or actors that are able to do some of that work of protecting communities." (31:00)
  • Warns of securitization (especially with migration) fueling authoritarian responses and closing civic space.

• Linking Security to Everyday Concerns

  • Urges connecting abstract security debates to local realities—e.g., using windfall taxes for public benefit like home insulation. (37:35)

6. Democratic State: Legitimacy, Participation, and Crisis

• The Crisis of Democratic Legitimacy

  • Newell explores whether persistent governmental failure to address ecocidal risks threatens the very legitimacy of the democratic state.
  • Notes the global rollback of civic space, impediments to participation in transition planning (e.g., suppression of environmental defenders).
    • Quote:
      "In most cases... there really is that need for ongoing accountability, because otherwise... you override local democratic processes..." (43:55)

• Moments of Possibility

  • Crises such as COVID reveal the capacity for rapid and profound state intervention—hinting at unrealized transformative potential.

7. Welfare State, Global Governance, and Transformation

• Welfare, Growth, and Global Inequality

  • Asserts that welfare and economic justice must be at the center of transitions, especially considering global disparities and debts tied to extractivism.
  • Quote: "We're generating welfare for some at the expense of... huge social and environmental damage for others." (50:18)
  • Praises efforts like Nigeria’s “Which Way Nigeria?” dialogues, opening consideration of post-oil futures.

• Taxation, Debt, and Voice

  • Urges integrating taxation and wealth redistribution into transition policy, and democratizing control over public debts and just transition investments, ensuring the most affected are consulted.

8. Looking Forward: Research and Activism

• Peter Newell’s Next Steps
  • Leading an ERC-funded project on "Leaving Fossil Fuels in the Ground"—comparative research on supply-side climate policies, especially the political economies enabling or constraining such shifts. (56:13)
  • Active with the Fossil Fuel Non-Proliferation Treaty Initiative.
  • Sees activist scholarship as vital: "Doing activism is also doing fieldwork..." (57:36)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "Frustration is always a very good start to a book."
  —Pauline Heinrichs (09:37)

• "States can say we actually don’t need private jets or... ever bigger cars... it’s legitimate for states to say we won’t authorize those forms of production..."
  —Peter Newell (19:47)

• "The market fantasy ... remains to be a fantasy, but particularly in the context of fossil fuel subsidies."
  —Pauline Heinrichs (54:37)

• "For me, it's those entry points about really unpicking and unpacking some of those claims about security when they get thrown in your face..."
  —Peter Newell (33:38)

• "The number of people—I think I saw a figure the other day—it’s like... five to six people every week somewhere in the world are being killed in defense of environmental causes. So it's a brutal world out there..."
  —Peter Newell (41:37)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:34] Episode/Open—Introduction to Peter Newell
• [02:38] Book’s origins and motivations
• [05:55] The myth of a single, unified state
• [06:38] Multiplicity of states and their contradictions
• [09:37] Relationality and moving beyond static theories
• [13:24] State agility, change, and stability
• [15:06] The entrepreneurial state—limits and possibilities
• [17:32] Critique of public-private innovation dynamics
• [19:47] Exnovation and state policy levers
• [23:44] Industrial policy: guidance vs. centralization
• [28:57] Military state and redefining security
• [37:35] Linking national security, cost of living, and state interventions
• [41:22] The democratic state's legitimacy crisis
• [49:08] From welfare to transformation and global governance
• [54:37] Fossil fuel subsidies and the “market fantasy”
• [56:13] Newell's ongoing and future research/activist work

Closing Thoughts

This insightful conversation between Pauline Heinrichs and Peter Newell not only elucidates the core arguments and structure of States of Transition but also brings the stakes of environmental transformation into sharp relief. The episode balances theoretical rigor with lived politics—demonstrating that discussions about state power, legitimacy, and the prospects for a just transition are not mere academic abstraction, but urgent and contested terrain. For listeners, it offers both an accessible entry point into critical state theory and a pointed reminder of the real-world challenges and motivations behind climate politics today.