New Books Network: "Here There Is No Why" with Philip Graubart and Michael Kinnaman

Date: October 12, 2025
Host: Roberto Mazza
Guests: Philip Graubart (“Here There Is No Why”), Michael Kinnaman (“A Rooftop in Jerusalem”)
Publisher: Köhler Books (both novels)

Episode Overview

In this episode, Roberto Mazza interviews authors Philip Graubart and Michael Kinnaman about their new novels, both set in Jerusalem and both tackling complex questions of memory, trauma, love, and interreligious connection. Graubart’s "Here There Is No Why" draws on the mystery surrounding Holocaust survivor and author Primo Levi’s death—transposed into a fictional Israeli setting—while Kinnaman’s "A Rooftop in Jerusalem" traces the decades-long love of an American Christian for Jerusalem and an Israeli Jewish woman, set against the backdrop of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. The conversation delves deeply into why the authors, both with backgrounds in ministry, theology, and deep connections to Israel/Palestine, chose to tell these stories now, how fiction shapes understanding, and the power of outsider perspectives.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Authors’ Backgrounds and Motivations

• Kinnaman’s Journey (03:55):

  • From Christian theology professor and ecumenical leader to novelist in retirement.
  • Studied in Tel Aviv (1969-70); formative experiences during the Al Aqsa Mosque fire inspired the novel.
  • Quote: “A seminal moment for me ... was I happened to be staying in that hotel in the Old City when Al Aqsa Mosque was burned, set on fire in 1969. ... I wanted to write about some of that experience and to start the book in that way.” (05:01)

• Graubart’s Path (05:50):

  • Congregational rabbi with a parallel passion for creative writing since college (Northwestern University).
  • Longstanding fascination (“obsession”) with Primo Levi’s life, work, and mysterious death.
  • Fictionalizes a Primo Levi-like Holocaust survivor, Chaim Lerner, to explore trauma and memory in new ways.
  • Quote: “... I have this focus, this obsession with the writing of Primo Levi, the life of Primo Levi, the death of Primo Levi. And that started the novel ...” (08:08)

2. Thematic Foundations

• On Trauma, Theology, and the Holocaust (09:56):

  • Graubart emphasizes plot and character drive the emergence of themes like Holocaust trauma, memory, and survival.
  • Moving the story from Italy to Jerusalem invited new layers—Israel/Palestine, attachment to land, conflict.
  • Quote: “So once I put him into Jerusalem, that brings in all the issues of the Israel Palestinian conflict and ... the controversies surrounding the Middle East.” (10:36)

• Framing Love Amidst Conflict (11:58):

  • Kinnaman stresses his novel, while often read as political, is fundamentally a love story paralleled by the ups and downs of the peace process.
  • Personal experience as a long-term visitor to Jerusalem anchors his perspective.
  • Quote: “... the ebb and flow of the love story parallels that of various peace efforts.” (12:27)

3. The Outsider’s Gaze

• Power and Limits of Outsider Perspectives (14:43, 15:27):
  • Both authors identify as outsiders in Jerusalem, despite extensive time living and studying there.
  • Graubart: Outsider narrators allow readers—often outsiders themselves—to draw their own conclusions.
  • Quote (Graubart): “The outsider that's apart from it, but that wants to know more, I think, is really congenial to fiction ... the reader can figure out ... I can come to my own conclusions, which is what I'm hoping for ...” (16:03)
  • Kinnaman: Outsider status enables a multi-angle understanding, avoiding claims of being a local.
  • Quote (Kinnaman): “... while I try to get as close as I can to that reality, I am an outsider. ... I studied in Tel Aviv, but ... I'm very familiar with Palestinian leadership ... So I have a sense of being immersed, maybe on, I hate to say, sides of a conflict, but really knowing more than one.” (17:31)

4. Blending Fact and Fiction

• Holocaust and Fictional Imagination (21:27):

  • Graubart is cautious about portrayal of Holocaust in fiction, aware of literary debates about authenticity and the limits of representation.
  • Never attempts to directly depict Holocaust events through his narrator, focusing instead on second-generation relationships with survivors.
  • Quote: “It's impossible really to portray the Holocaust in fiction, but it's also necessary ...” (22:41)

• Researching Jerusalem—Texture, Hospitality, and Tension (24:08):

  • Kinnaman draws heavily from lived experience, diverse friendships across Jerusalem’s quarters, and encounters from his career in ministry and interfaith dialogue.
  • Real encounters, group meetings with diverse Israeli and Palestinian actors, and personal anecdotes ground the novel’s atmospheric realism.
  • Quote: “I've spent a lot of time there ... I have friends in all the quarters of Jerusalem, and that's really helped also to get a different experience of the city.” (24:24)

5. Interreligious Encounters and Empathy

• Jewish-Arab-Christian Encounters (26:44):
  • Both authors highlight the rarity yet necessity of deep cross-cultural encounters and friendships, both in American Jewish experience and on the ground in Israel/Palestine.
  • Graubart reflects on how rare actual Palestinian-Jewish contact is among American Jews and how fiction can bridge that gap.
  • Quote: “... everything that guides us in understanding the Israel Palestinian conflict is missing something. And that's the encounter with the other. ... At least I've tried to do that in fiction ...” (28:03)
  • Kinnaman showcases human connection as transcendent, both in love stories and broader interreligious friendships.
  • Quote: “The love, in that sense, transcends any kind of religious difference. ... I try to put those into conversation.” (29:52)

6. Theological Musing and Mystery

• The Limited God and Post-Holocaust Faith (33:01):
  • Graubart, channeling his protagonist Chaim Lerner, wrestles with Harold Kushner’s “limited God” theology—only partly aligning with it.
  • The novel, though structured as a whodunit, is most invested in cosmic, unanswerable mysteries—why suffering, why evil, why God’s silence.
  • Quote: “... my favorite theology becomes Harold Kushner's because that's Chaim Lerner's theology. ... It works for Chaim Lerner, but ... after I've written the novel ... that doesn't work for me at all ...” (35:16)

7. The Transformative Potential of Fiction

• Does Fiction Bridge Faith Divides? (40:28):

  • Skepticism about fiction “solving” real conflicts, but belief in its capacity for growing empathy and “wisdom.”
  • Graubart: By inhabiting even a failed suicide bomber’s mind, readers gain psychological understanding—a basis for empathy, if not justification.
  • Kinnaman: Inspired by Graham Greene’s idea that “hatred is just a failure of the imagination,” believing fiction unique in its ability to humanize “the other.”
  • Quote (Kinnaman): “Fiction can engender empathy, and that's what we're really looking for here. ... Hatred is just a failure of the imagination.” (43:13)

• Fiction and Friendship as Healing (44:44):

  • Joint presentations, e.g., “Can Fiction and Friendship Heal what Politics Can’t?”, underline their belief in the palpable, if modest, impact of story and relationship.

8. Memorable Moments, Scenes, and Structure

• Signature Scenes:
  • Graubart: Prayer experiment at the Western Wall—seeking five blessings, getting four, but never the most longed-for one. A meditation on prayer, disappointment, theological uncertainty. (51:13–53:47)
    • Quote: “... It's even more catastrophic. The catastrophe is that all he really wanted was his wife to survive. ... As if God were mocking me ... Or maybe it was all bullshit. Just struggling with the idea of prayer.” (53:59)
  • Kinnaman: The interfaith group’s wrenching visit to Yad Vashem, memories of Deir Yassin, debates over trauma and justice; Daniel’s emotional journey through decades, culminating in the exchange of letters.
    • Quote: “Readers ... tell me [the final letter] makes them cry. ... A love story culminating in some way at that moment stays with people.” (55:02)
    • Quote: “They begin to tell one another their own sense of the history ... They also have different fears, so they begin to see what makes the other one afraid. And I think that's an important part of interfaith encounter as well.” (31:08)

9. Challenging Misreadings and Engaging New Questions

• Reader Reactions (57:38):
  • Graubart: Pushback about an anti-Zionist teenage character; concern about sympathetic explorations of difficult topics like suicide bombers; desire for “wisdom, not black and white.”
  • Kinnaman: Readers misreading the novel as purely political or Daniel as a relativist; intent is to show Daniel’s evolution from neutral observer to a more morally forceful stance.

10. What They Hope Listeners and Readers Take Away

• Celebrating Story, Empathy and Friendship (64:09, 66:08):
  • Graubart: Hope readers are captivated by the novels, reflect on complex mysteries—of suffering, conflict, love—and embrace curiosity and “not-knowing.”
  • Kinnaman: Encourages celebration of fiction’s ability to teach indirectly and friendship that crosses boundaries.
  • Quote (Kinnaman): “Celebrate fiction ... as a way ... to learn about others in this kind of indirect and wonderful way ... celebrate friendship ... Go make friends with people who aren't in your group ...” (66:36)

Notable Quotes and Moments (Timestamps)

• “A seminal moment for me ... when Al Aqsa Mosque was burned ... I wanted to write about some of that experience and to start the book in that way.” — Michael Kinnaman (05:01)
• “... I have this focus, this obsession with ... Primo Levi ... his survival ... his life has the central mystery to it. So I put the central mystery, the manner of his death, front and center in the novel and then I let my imagination take over.” — Philip Graubart (08:08)
• “The outsider that's apart from it, but that wants to know more, I think, is really congenial to fiction ...” — Philip Graubart (16:03)
• “I've spent a lot of time there ... I have friends in all the quarters of Jerusalem ..." — Michael Kinnaman (24:24)
• “Everything that guides us in understanding the Israel Palestinian conflict is missing something. And that's the encounter with the other.” — Philip Graubart (28:03)
• “Fiction can engender empathy, and that's what we're really looking for here. ... Hatred is just a failure of the imagination.” — Michael Kinnaman (43:13)
• “I want the audience to enjoy a story that takes them to different places and introduces them to interesting characters ... just the compelling some kind of interest and thought.” — Philip Graubart (65:08)
• “Celebrate fiction ... celebrate friendship ... make friends with people who aren't in your group ...” — Michael Kinnaman (66:36)

Timestamps for Major Segments

• [03:55] — Authors’ backgrounds and what drew them to their stories
• [09:56] — Weaving trauma and memory into fiction; setting and themes
• [14:43] — Outsider perspectives and their narrative power
• [21:27] — The challenge of blending historical events with fictional invention (esp. Holocaust writing)
• [26:44] — Depicting interreligious encounters and “the encounter with the other”
• [33:01] — Theological questions, limited God, faith after trauma (and post-Holocaust theology)
• [40:28] — Potential and limits of fiction for bridging divides
• [51:13] — Memorable scenes the authors hope stay with readers
• [57:38] — Reader responses and misreadings; empathy over certainty
• [64:09] — Final thoughts: what they hope listeners will take away

Final Takeaways

• Both novels use Jerusalem and its layered, contested histories as a crucible for exploring faith, doubt, trauma, and the persistent need for connection across divides.
• The outsider status of both protagonists and authors is not a limitation, but a chosen vantage point—one that encourages curiosity, humility, and empathy.
• Both authors deeply believe in fiction’s capacity to improve understanding—not by providing simplistic answers, but by immersing readers in the lived complexity of “the other.”
• Friendship, curiosity, and the willingness to inhabit uncomfortable ambiguities are, for these writers, at the heart of hope for both literary and real-world healing.