Podcast Summary

Episode Overview

Podcast: New Books Network – New Books in Political Science
Host: Lily Gorn
Guest: Philip Rocco, Associate Professor of Political Science at Marquette University
Book: Counting Like a State: How Intergovernmental Partnerships Shaped the 2020 US Census (University Press of Kansas, 2025)
Date: November 27, 2025

This episode features an in-depth discussion with political scientist Philip Rocco about his new book, which investigates how the 2020 US Census, typically seen as a dry federal bureaucratic exercise, actually involved complex, innovative, and crucial partnerships between federal, state, and local governments. The conversation explores the historic and contemporary politics of census-taking, especially the evolution and challenges of the census in the hyper-political, pandemic-impacted 2020 cycle.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Rocco’s Path to Studying the Census and Federalism (02:49–09:34)

• Rocco describes himself as a scholar of federalism who became interested in the census when he noticed a lack of scholarly attention compared to elections.

• Motivation emerged from fielding student questions during the relatively calm 2010 census and observing the political disputes that arose in 2020.

• He notes that while the census is a federal responsibility, much of the outreach and explanatory work was done by state/local governments and nonprofits, sparking his research interest.

  “[T]rying to think about how democracies wrestle with these disagreements over numbers and how numbers constitute an infrastructure for democracy, what's really interesting is why I started teaching a class at Marquette. And what led me to this particular book ... was searching for material to try to make the census make sense to my students.”
  — Philip Rocco (06:10)

2. Historical Background: Federal vs. State Roles in the Census (11:07–17:15)

• Historically, the Constitution deliberately limits state roles due to fears of self-interested manipulation, but the small size of the federal government led to some local involvement out of necessity.

• Major changes in the 1960s made census data integral for federal funding allocation and electoral redistricting, making state governments significant stakeholders.

• The shift to “self-enumeration” (mail-in census) increased the need for local outreach partnerships to build trust and ensure compliance.

• By 2020, some states developed full-fledged state census offices (e.g., California), with varying degrees of investment and engagement.

  "By 2010 and 2020, that [federal-state partnership] program ... had really grown. You saw an unprecedented level of spending—just voluntarily by state and local governments, billions of dollars in spending to do campaigns and so forth."
  — Philip Rocco (16:14)

3. The 2020 Census: Legal, Political, and Pandemic Challenges (19:39–30:56)

• The Trump administration attempted to add a citizenship question for the first time to the main census, aiming to benefit certain political groups and regions—this led to legal challenges and widespread distrust.

• Following legal defeats, attempts were made to count and exclude undocumented immigrants via administrative records, again raising legal and logistical challenges.

• The pandemic disrupted census operations, canceled in-person outreach, and forced rapid adaptations like virtual events, “phone trees,” and leveraging existing channels (food distribution, testing centers).

• Resource disparities meant that places with stronger pre-existing partnerships could adapt better to COVID-induced challenges.

  “[T]he operational timeline [was shattered]. The census is one of these operations in government that is highly time dependent...the pandemic just halts operations...and that just sort of puts a time crutch on how much time the census can be in the field...”
  — Philip Rocco (25:36)

4. Vertical Partnerships: The Census and Intergovernmental Cooperation (31:35–36:49)

• Rocco introduces the concept of “vertical partnerships”—loose, often voluntary collaborations between federal, state, and local governments that diverge from typical grant-based intergovernmental programs.

• Unlike federal programs that use large grants, census outreach relies on states’ and cities’ own motivation and sometimes very modest funding streams.

• States like California built robust, proactive infrastructures, while others (Texas, Florida) invested little or late, often for partisan or ideological reasons.

  “The census is interesting to me because those partnerships ... that rely on large sums of federal dollars, are not typically the kinds of vertical partnerships that we see ... partnerships ... are largely voluntary.”
  — Philip Rocco (32:16)

5. Case Studies in State Strategies and Partisanship (38:01–44:02)

• States with large or at-risk populations (e.g., California) made major, early investments; some, like Texas and Florida, invested minimally, often due to political reluctance or state-federal friction.

• Even within states, internal politics (e.g., gubernatorial fears of primary challenges, legislative budget negotiations) shaped census investments.

• Partisanship explained much variance but had exceptions (e.g., Alabama’s investment was justified differently under Republican leadership).

  "There are a lot more different routes to yes for Democrats in a way than there are Republicans. There are a lot more different reasons to say yes when the issue is kind of swept into the partisan battle."
  — Philip Rocco (43:31)

6. 2020 Census: Successes and Lingering Inequalities (44:50–48:24)

• Rocco’s bottom line: By the standard of overall net undercount, the 2020 census was successful—even in extremely adverse conditions.
• However, substantial undercounts persisted in key subpopulations (Hispanics, Black residents, renters, children, American Indians on reservations) and some states/cities (e.g., Detroit).
• The magnitude of undercounts might have been far worse without state/local outreach; collaborative efforts proved crucial.
• The Census Bureau is not alone in shaping the census: “we shouldn’t just assume... it’s the only entity that affects the quality of the census.” (47:59)

7. Future Research and the Politics of Demographic Change (48:39–53:26)

• Rocco intends to continue studying the politics of official statistics, especially given recent threats to federal statistical infrastructure and growing demographic challenges (population decline, urban shrinkage).

• The collaborations and coalitions formed for the 2020 census could influence future policy and adaptation to changing population realities, in the US and abroad.

  "One question is, how do you keep those coalitions going and how do you adapt the strategies ... to a new, potentially new census environment?"
  — Philip Rocco (50:15)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Much of [state/local census work] is unsung, much of it is unfunded and is really not formalized in a lot of ways ... in the absence of all of this work ... the census will look very different than it looks and we would probably have less accurate census counts ...”
  — Philip Rocco (08:58)
• “The operational timeline [of the census] is shattered [by the pandemic]... all of these outreach operations ... had to pivot on a dime ... piggybacking on channels like food distributions or testing operations ... really innovative and kind of smart idea.”
  — Philip Rocco (26:18–27:41)
• “I always think about ... Departments of Administration ... the catch-all department that deals with all the residual parts of government that nobody else is doing... these people are amazing...”
  — Philip Rocco (29:37)
• “Partisanship did play a role, but in a couple different ways, and not always in the ways that you expect ... the nature of investment or disinvestment redounded to a pretty normal budget year spat...”
  — Philip Rocco (41:26)
• “I think the one thing that you can conclude from this is that we shouldn't just assume that because the Census Bureau is called the Census Bureau, that it's the only entity that shapes the way that the census rolls out ...”
  — Philip Rocco (47:59)
• “The difference between a congressional seat in a state is sometimes as low as a few dozen ... the kind of demographic change that matters most now ... are far more significant and are far harder to have political conflicts over in the context of the census because they're broader demographic shifts.”
  — Philip Rocco (51:36)

Important Timestamps

• 02:49 – Rocco’s academic path and why the census matters in political science
• 11:07 – Historical evolution of state/federal roles in the census
• 16:14 – Self-enumeration and rise of state/local advocacy and outreach
• 19:39 – Politics around the citizenship question, Trump administration, and legal disputes
• 25:34 – COVID-19’s disruption: operational/lifecycle challenges and state/local pivots
• 31:35 – Explaining “vertical partnerships” in the census context
• 38:01 – State case studies: comparisons between California, Texas, Florida, and Alabama
• 44:50 – Rocco’s evaluation: “a very good census” with caveats about subpopulation undercounts
• 48:39 – Future agendas: studying politics of population data and demographic change

Summary

Philip Rocco’s Counting Like a State reveals the hidden world of intergovernmental collaboration that makes the decennial census possible in America. Through interviews, archival research, and a clear focus on the tumultuous 2020 cycle framed by the COVID-19 pandemic and politicized legal battles, Rocco demonstrates that the accuracy and legitimacy of the census depend on a diverse ecology of local, state, and federal actions—partnerships more often propelled by local initiative than top-down funding. His work challenges standard assumptions about who “does” the census and shows just how textured, fraught, and indispensable these intergovernmental partnerships are for democratic governance.