“Plato and the Tyrant” with author James Romm

Summary

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Podcast Summary: “Plato and the Tyrant” – James Romm on the New Books Network

Podcast: New Books Network
Host: Paul Sterman
Guest: James Romm (author, Professor of Classics at Bard College)
Episode Date: September 13, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode explores James Romm’s new book Plato and the Tyrant, which examines Plato’s journeys to Syracuse, his involvement with the city’s infamous tyrants, and how his personal encounters shaped both his political philosophy and his most influential works. Romm, building on rarely discussed Platonic letters, provides a rare biography of Plato as a complex, fallible human deeply enmeshed in efforts to influence—and possibly reform—the most powerful authoritarian regime of his day.

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Main Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Forgotten Story: Plato’s Letters and Journeys to Syracuse

• Platonic Letters: Romm emphasizes the extraordinary value of five under-read letters attributed to Plato, which he regards as authentic and biographically revealing ([01:56]).

  • “They seem to me to be entirely genuine and incredibly revealing of Plato the man.” – James Romm [02:23]

• Historical Context of Syracuse:

  • Syracuse was the major Greek power in the west, surpassing even Athens and Sparta at times ([04:04]–[04:31]).
  • It faced existential threats from Carthage (modern Tunisia), paralleling the mainland Greek struggle with Persia ([05:18], [06:14]).

2. Plato’s Motivation: Tyranny, Power, and Philosophy

• Personal Background:
  • Plato, already a seasoned thinker at 40, was grappling with issues of tyranny, having witnessed the “Rule of the 30” in his youth ([10:06]).
• The Republic and Tyranny:
  • His philosophical inquiries into government coincided with his practical observation of Syracuse’s authoritarian rule ([09:03], [11:19]).
• Motivation for the Book:
  • Romm discovered these stories while researching another book, finding Plato’s Syracuse adventure “swept [him] off [his] feet” ([12:23]).

3. Contemporary Resonance of Tyranny

• Modern Parallels:
  • Romm acknowledges that Plato’s struggles with tyranny resonate today, with references to rising authoritarianism globally and in the US ([14:18], [15:07]).
    • “In an era when the lure of authoritarianism is stronger than ever, this story has resonance.” – James Romm [14:18]

4. The Psychology of Tyrants

• Character of Dionysius the Elder:

  • Dionysius favored the worst, rewarding toadies and enabling a culture of flattery out of self-preservation ([16:00]–[17:45]).
    • “[Dionysius] said … ‘I want there to be someone who's hated more than I am.’” – James Romm (quoting source) [15:57]

• Comic Shamelessness at Court:

  • Romm describes the antics and abasement of court flatterers, sometimes humorous but ultimately destructive ([18:07], [18:38]).
    • “It's a study in self-abasement that unfortunately has all too much resonance with things going on today.” – James Romm [18:07]

5. Plato’s Three Fateful Visits to Syracuse

First Visit: Naïveté in the Face of Power ([19:29]–[22:55])

• Plato attempts to advise Dionysius the Elder, ends up insulted and allegedly sold into slavery ([19:42]–[20:29]).
• “He blundered into situations that forced him to make terrible compromises, moral compromises, and actually endangered his life.” – James Romm [22:55]

Relationship with Dion

• Dion emerges as Plato’s “most promising, most rewarding acolyte ... abstemious and temperate in his own habits” ([24:59]).
• Romm notes their relationship was likely both pedagogic and romantic ([25:34]).

Second Visit: The Philosopher’s Hope and Disappointment ([26:09]–[37:21])

• Trigger: 20 years later, Dion asks Plato to return to instruct Dionysius the Younger, described as a “blank slate” ([27:04], [27:21]).
• Plato hopes to realize the “Syracuse project”—to unite philosophy with absolute power ([28:13], [28:25]).
• Ultimately, court intrigue leads to Dion’s exile, and Plato is stranded, manipulated via Dion’s fortunes ([29:10]–[33:11]).
  • “The principal leverage ... was the fate of Dion.” – James Romm [31:50]

Third Visit: Final Disillusion and Rescue ([43:38]–[57:42])

• Older and warier, Plato returns, hoping to secure Dion’s restoration amid promises that are never kept by the tyrant ([44:06]–[45:34]).
• Tension erupts over Dion’s estate; Plato is moved out of the palace into a dangerous barracks ([50:08]–[52:54]).
• Plato is suspected of plotting a coup but presents himself as a cautious reformer, not a revolutionary ([53:11]–[54:18]).
  • “I don't think he meant to instigate a coup ... But I think he would have been happy if one took place.” – James Romm [54:47]
• Eventually, Plato is exfiltrated by philosopher-king Archytas of Tarentum, returning to Athens “very much in defeat” ([57:03]–[57:42]).

6. Aftermath and Influence

• Plato as Flesh-and-Blood Human:

  • Romm reflects on how the Syracuse adventures make Plato appear “much more human … not a marble bust any longer” ([34:01]–[35:03]).

• Tyranny as Contagion:

  • The “Syracuse model” is imitated across the Greek world ([47:09]–[48:00]).
    • “It is contagious, yes.” – James Romm [48:00]

• Learning and Adaptation:

  • Plato is influenced by alternative models like philosopher-king Archytas in Tarentum ([48:17]–[50:01]).
    • “He was learning by his own experience ... willing to have the world teach him.” – Paul Sterman [49:35]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “We have this idealized image of Plato in the Western humanities … but his works give us no insight into who he was.” – James Romm [34:01]
• “Your administrators … are not telling you the truth … they're telling you what you want to hear and that's leading you into bad policy.” – James Romm (on Plato’s letter to Dionysius) [18:49]
• “He blundered into situations that forced him to make terrible compromises, moral compromises, and actually endangered his life.” – James Romm [22:55]
• “In an era when the lure of authoritarianism is stronger than ever, this story has resonance.” – James Romm [14:18]
• “It's a study in self-abasement that unfortunately has all too much resonance with things going on today.” – James Romm [18:07]
• “Plato was intensely concerned over Dion's fate. And the tyrant had the ability to either withhold Dion's entire estate, that is, impoverish him, or bring him back and reinstate him.” – James Romm [31:50]
• “We can't say that that's wrong … there are good reasons to think that Plato would have been very happy with that outcome and perhaps actually meant to bring it about.” – James Romm (on suspicions of plotting a coup) [54:18]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:56] – Genesis of the book and discovery of the Platonic letters
• [04:04]–[05:18] – Explanation of Syracuse’s historical role
• [09:03]–[11:19] – Plato’s political philosophy and early development
• [14:18]–[15:10] – Contemporary echoes of Plato’s tyranny problem
• [15:57]–[18:07] – The psychology of tyrants and court flattery
• [19:42]–[22:55] – Plato’s first visit and experiences of failure
• [24:59] – Introduction and importance of Dion
• [27:04]–[29:10] – Second Syracuse attempt and the “blank slate” project
• [31:50] – Plato’s vulnerabilities and leverage during his exile
• [43:38]–[45:34] – The third visit and Plato’s waning hope
• [50:08]–[52:54] – Plato’s peril and political geography of Syracuse
• [53:11]–[54:18] – Motives and suspicions about Plato’s “plotting”

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Conclusion

James Romm’s book and his conversation on the podcast paint a picture of Plato as deeply human, driven by idealistic hopes, personal attachments, and ultimately forced to wrestle with the gritty realities of political life. His repeated attempts to mold a tyrant into a philosopher-king—each time outmaneuvered, manipulated, or misunderstood—show the enduring tension between philosophical ideals and the brute facts of power. Romm’s work not only deepens our understanding of a “flesh-and-blood” Plato but also makes ancient debates on tyranny feel uncannily relevant for today.

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Recommended for listeners interested in: Ancient history, political philosophy, the intersection of idealism and power, and contemporary reflections on authoritarianism.

Transcript

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Welcome to the New Books Network.

[Paul Sterman]

Hello everyone. I'm Paul Stereman, and welcome to American beyond and the New Books Network. My guest today is James Rome, who is author of Plato and the the Fall of Greece's Greatest Dynasty and the Making of a Philosophic Master. James is the James H. Ottaway Jr. Professor of Classics at Bard College and editor of the Ancient Lives Biography series from Yale University Press, as well as the author of several other studies of Greek and Roman history. Welcome to America and beyond, James.

[James Romm]

Thank you, Paul. It's a pleasure to be here.

[Paul Sterman]

So what motivated you prompted you to undertake this work?

[James Romm]

So we have in the classical canon a set of letters that are described as the Platonic letters because it's not clear that they're by Plato, but they're ostensibly by Plato. They seem to come from him. I'd never read them in graduate school or come across them in other studies of classical literature. They're very little commented on, but they seem to me at least the five of them that deal with the events in the city of Syracuse, the city to which Plato went as an adult, three times they Seem to me to be entirely genuine and incredibly revealing of Plato the man. We know a lot about Plato through his dialogues, we know about his ideas, but these seem to have biographical content and historical content. That totally blew my mind.

[Paul Sterman]

Yeah, yeah, that was one of the things that struck me as well, having, you know, I've read the Republic and so forth. But I would say, you know, as a layperson I was more or less not terribly aware of the kind of flesh and blood Plato. So you restore some of his humanity, as it were. But just one thing, when you said he went to Syracuse, I think it would be good just to understand how you describe in the book what exactly was Syracuse at that time in the sort of constellation of the Greek city, state, world. Because as you point out, it could be easily overshadowed by places like Athens and Sparta and Corinth. And in the American consciousness it may be Syracuse as a place, a city in upstate New York, but it held a lot of significance in the world that we are inhabiting in this book.

[James Romm]

Yes, Syracuse is a city on the island of Sicily. It's modern Syracuse. At the time I'm Speaking of the 4th century BC, it was a Greek city. Most of eastern Sicily was Greek as well as southern Italy. These were colonies sent out by the Greeks of the mainland mainland Greece.

[Paul Sterman]

Was it Corinth that actually they sent?

[James Romm]

It was Corinth, exactly. Yes. Corinth had sent colonists that founded Syracuse several centuries before my, the time of my story. In those centuries, Syracuse had become the superpower of what I call the Greek west, Italy and Sicily. And in the 4th century, the time of Plato, it actually became the superpower of really the entire Greek world. Athens and Sparta had battered each other during the Peloponnesian War, reduced each other in power dramatically. And Syracuse emerged as really the most powerful Greek state of its time.

[Paul Sterman]

And it was challenged though, as we point out, and it's important for the context in understanding tyranny that there were to the coming from the east, the Carthaginians. And they were a real threat to the Syracuse, the security of Syracuse. Is that right?

[James Romm]

That's right. The western half of the island was dominated.

[Paul Sterman]

The western half, yes, sorry.

[James Romm]

The western half was dominated by settlers from Carthage on the coast of North Africa. A non Greek people who very much wanted control of the entire island.

[Paul Sterman]

Tunisia today, is it more or less? Yes. Okay. Yeah. And this was, I mean this was a serious threat, right? I mean, they were threatening to basically take possession of the island.

[James Romm]

So Syracuse had fought a major war against the Carthaginians in 480, the same moment that the Greeks of the mainland were fighting the Persians. And the two events seem to have been coordinated. That is non Greeks were attacking Greeks on both sides of the Mediterranean. And again in the late 5th century, the time of my story, the Carthaginians were on the warpath once again and trying to conquer all of Sicily.

[Paul Sterman]

And so where is Plato at this time before he makes his first visit to Syracuse?

[James Romm]

So Plato was an Athenian. He was born in Athens at around 428 BC and spent really his entire life in Athens, except for these three journeys to the Greek west, to Italy and Sicily. In about age 40, 60 and 67.

[Paul Sterman]

What would his level of awareness been in Athens about the goings on in Syracuse?

[James Romm]

The Athenians had a close connection to Syracuse. They did business and actually contracted an alliance with the rulers of Syracuse at one point. And because Syracuse is so powerful, it inserted itself into into the struggles, the power struggles of the mainland Greeks, sending mercenaries or sending troops to one side or another, depending on who they wanted to support. So there was a constant stream of communication. Of course, communications are much slower in the ancient world than in times. It took weeks for news to get from Sicily to Athens, at least during the winter, when sailing across the Mediterranean was not possible. But nevertheless, we know that there was a constant stream of communication.

[Paul Sterman]

And where was Plato at the time? He was at least considering this first visit to Syracuse in terms of his own work and writings, as with the Republic.

[James Romm]

So I'm sorry, can you repeat the question?

[Paul Sterman]

Sure. In terms of Plato considering his first visit to Syracuse, where at that time was Plato in his ongoing work as a philosopher, including his writings such as the Republic, which is so key.

[James Romm]

We know that Plato had begun the Republic and possibly circulated some draft or some nucleus of it already by 390 BC and he went to Syracuse for the first time in 3:88. So he was already at work on the Republic, had already published other dialogues, some of his early dialogues by that time. So he was a 40 year old. He was journeyman, philosopher if you like, had not yet founded his academy, the institution that he would then lead for the rest of his life, but had already begun publishing.

[Paul Sterman]

Where was Plato in terms of his thinking about tyranny, which of course is a key component of the Republic, but also what interested him, at least one thing that interested him about Syracuse.

[James Romm]

We know that Plato was concerned about the possibilities of tyranny throughout his adult life. The negative potential was clear because his own city had gone through a period of authoritarian Rule in his late 20s, the so called rule of the 30.

[Paul Sterman]

Tyrants after the right connected with Athens defeat by Sparta.

[James Romm]

Exactly. So he had witnessed at firsthand the problem of authoritarianism in Athens. But he also saw in Syracuse the positive possibilities, the potentials or tyranny to morph into something more enlightened, something more like philosopher kingship.

[Paul Sterman]

Yeah. Which we should talk about. But. Yeah, but he was aware of Syracuse as being a possible template for his speculations on this topic.

[James Romm]

Exactly. So I think his journey to Syracuse right after writing parts of the Republic is not a coincidence. He was dealing in both cases with the question of strongman rule, or one man rule. And his founding of the academy directly after coming back from Syracuse in 387 also is not coincidental. He had seen things in Syracuse that made him think the academy was an essential institution.

[Paul Sterman]

Right. And this, I mean, on this theme of tyranny and philosopher kings, which I'd like to get into more, I'm wondering, well, at what point did you begin to undertake this study yourself? I know it with books that typically can take some years. So I was kind of curious about that, just to situate you in this story.

[James Romm]

So I wrote a book about five years ago called the Sacred A Story of Thebes in the years 370 to 340 B.C. that is a period when Thebes became briefly, the superpower of the Greek world. I discovered in the course of researching that book, this account, these Platonic letters and their account of Plato's journeys to Syracuse. I was so swept off my feet that I tried to include that story in my account of Thebes. And my editor at Scribner's rightly said, what has this got to do with our heroes, the sacred band? And I had to say, well, nothing, except timing. And of course, she urged me to cut that part out. So once I excised that portion and then set it aside, I came back to it later for this book.

[Paul Sterman]

Okay. I mean, I can't help but be aware of the fact that we're having this conversation in the era when tyranny is itself a subject with a contemporary resonance. It's a subject that is brought up with reference to the person who is currently the head of state in America, although not only him, also in Russia and China. Was that something that resonated at all for you in terms of this work? I mean, there are no contemporary references that I found in my reading of it. Nevertheless, the context and so forth. And I imagine I'm probably not the first one to put that question before you.

[James Romm]

Anyway, the book was finished before the 2024 election, so I had no advance notice as to how relevant its concern with tyranny would be. I did say in my introduction that in an era when the lure of a thera of authoritarianism is stronger than ever, that this story has resonance. Thinking of, you know, places like Hungary and, as you say, Russia and China, and the rise of a. A right wing movement that thinks of authoritarianism as a solution to our problems in America.

[Paul Sterman]

Would you include America in that as well? Or is that.

[James Romm]

Oh, absolutely.

[Paul Sterman]

Okay. Yeah, absolutely. So that is a kind of a backdrop, we could say, which also, I think we want to get back more into the story as it proceeds. But one of the things interests me is that it seems like the philosophers, Plato, I mean, they were attempting to sketch what I guess we would call, maybe they called our archetypes, I mean, certain personality features, or they didn't think, obviously in Freudian terms. But some of the kinds of references you make strike me as being a piece with psychology of some sort. And actually, I wanted to just read a passage here that did remind me of sort of the contemporary tyrant, or whatever we want to call such a person. It has to do with Dionysus, I believe this is Dionysus the Elder. We can get in that. But you write that while eliminating the talented and the best, Dionysus is said to have also promoted the worst. He favored drunkards and gamblers who'd gone into debt, advancing them so they'd provide models for others. In a moment of unusual candor, Dionysus reportedly said when he heard complaints that he promoted a villain, I want to be there. I want there to be someone who's hated more than I am. So it struck me at that point, I circled it, that we could be talking about contemporary figures, but to the broader point, hence our interest in the ancient world as well. We're talking essentially about archetypes or recurring forms, templates, models that repeat themselves, if not exactly, at least in some recognizable way.

[James Romm]

Yes, that quote is very apposite. And the attention I give to the Dionysio flatterers. Yes, the toadies and suck ups who surround the tyrants of Syracuse because they're getting handouts from him, they're being maintained at his sumptuous tables, and they slather him with praise and adulation.

[Paul Sterman]

And they also, yeah, you have this great anecdote where they don't. They, like, pretend to be blind or something, because his vision isn't so great. What was that again?

[James Romm]

Yes, because he's nearsighted. They pretend that they're blind. And when they sit at table at his many feasts, they grope about for their place of food until he generously guides their hand to their place.

[Paul Sterman]

Yeah, I. But it's all like pretend and pantomime and stuff, right? I mean it's.

[James Romm]

It's a study in self abasement that unfortunately has all too much resonance with things going on today, but kind of in.

[Paul Sterman]

Kind of creative and ingenious in its sort of dark way. I mean that's, you know, the things that it occurs to people to do to demonstrate their, you know, fealty and to get into the good graces of, you know, the guy who really matters.

[James Romm]

Exactly.

[Paul Sterman]

Shameless.

[James Romm]

Yes. There's a lot of shamelessness and somewhat comic.

[Paul Sterman]

Shameless, yes, comic shamelessness.

[James Romm]

I've tried to see the humorous side, but there is the great harm done to governance. And Plato actually talks about this in one of his letters to Dionysius. And I deal with three letters that Plato writes to Dionysius. And in one of them he says your administrators, your staff are not telling you the truth out the cost of your programs or the debts that you're incurring. They're telling you what you want to hear and that's leading you into bad policy.

[Paul Sterman]

Yeah, well, I'm sure he wanted to hear that, but you know, so that goes to. How was Plato? How did Plato's first visit go? This was to the Dionysus the Elder. I mean, I guess on the whole, not all that well.

[James Romm]

No, not well at all. Unfortunately, we only have later and semi legendary accounts. Plato himself never discusses the visit of 388 in his letters, although he goes into great detail about the other two visits. But the legends that we have from later times show a philosopher trying to talk sense with a tyrant, trying to guide him toward a better mode of governance and getting thrown out ignominiously from the court and even apparently sold into slavery as a punishment for speaking to freely.

[Paul Sterman]

And then he was kind of like purchased back or something, redeemed and his.

[James Romm]

Friends had to buy him out of slavery according to the legends. Again, we have no evidence, no hard evidence to support this, but it seems that he was sold into slavery and then ransomed or. Or his freedom was purchased by one of his rich friends.

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Visit xtandi.com to watch my story. I mean, do you think Plato was naive in this beginning effort, which sounds a little strange given that, you know, he has been rendered down to us as this kind of, you know, vessel of penetrating insight?

[James Romm]

I think he was extremely naive. Historian of the 1980s, Peter Brunt, whom I quote, says he was little better than a child in matters of practical politics. He blundered into situations that forced him to make terrible compromises, moral compromises, and actually endangered his life. At one point. And amazingly, to the great disappointment of some of his contemporaries, he went back to Syracuse a second and a third time after having a bad experience. Both a second time?

[Paul Sterman]

Well, we'll talk about that. Yeah, that happened somewhat later. But also I just want to, you know, the plot thickens a little bit because we have this figure of Diane Dion.

[James Romm]

Dion.

[Paul Sterman]

Dion, who is a brother in law. I was initially felt a little bit confused about this because he's described as both the brother in law to the elder and to The Younger? Yes. How does that work?

[James Romm]

Yeah, the genealogy of this tyrant family gets a little complex. And, you know, I have a chart in the book that helps keep everything straight. But Dion's sister had married Dionysius the Elder, so that made him brother in law to the elder. And when he married the sister of Dionysius the Younger. So he was also brother in law to Dionysius the Younger.

[Paul Sterman]

Yeah, right. Right. Now, he seemed, again, is this naivete, but he seems to see in Dion someone with a lot of potential.

[James Romm]

Yes. By far his most promising, most rewarding acolyte in Syracuse was Dion.

[Paul Sterman]

This brother in law, what made him stand out in Plato's eyes?

[James Romm]

He was abstemious and temperate in his own habits in a court that was dominated by hedonism, by feasting, banqueting, libidinous sex. Dayon was a straight arrow, so to speak, and also very interested in philosophy and a student of Plato's ideas.

[Paul Sterman]

That must have felt good. I mean, every teacher likes to be validated by the students.

[James Romm]

Yes. And in this case, it was, excuse me, it was more than just a pedagogic relationship. It seems to have also been a pederastic relationship. And I talk about that quite candidly in the book that there's good evidence in the form of a poem that Plato later wrote, that the two of them had a romance.

[Paul Sterman]

Right, right. So Plato, okay, visit one, he's kind of booted out. How much time passes before we get to visit two?

[James Romm]

About 20 years.

[Paul Sterman]

So he's 60.

[James Romm]

Right.

[Paul Sterman]

Which is kind of old in life expectancy terms at that time.

[James Romm]

Well, not so much.

[Paul Sterman]

Oh, okay.

[James Romm]

There's a lot of confusion about life expectancy in the ancient world because averages are not very indicative. Averages include a lot of infant mortality.

[Paul Sterman]

Yeah. So if you've lived to the age 40, then your life expectancy could be quite good.

[James Romm]

Yes, exactly.

[Paul Sterman]

So, right, okay. He's 60. He's still alive and kicking. His mind is good. And with him. Why, after this unhappy initial experience, does he decide to return?

[James Romm]

He was called upon by Dayan, who was at that point about 40.

[Paul Sterman]

Who.

[James Romm]

Wrote to him that number one, Dionysius the Elder, had died, passed on his tyranny to his son, also named Dionysius. So hence Dionysius the Younger.

[Paul Sterman]

Yeah, we'll just call him the Younger.

[James Romm]

Yeah, we can call him the Younger. So the younger was at this point about 30 and had been brought up, as we know, from Plutarch, without much education or learning. His father had deliberately kept him from getting educated to kind of keep him down to avoid a coup. Dion wrote to Plato and said, this man is a blank slate. Here is our chance. We've talked about, you know, you've talked about the possibilities of a philosopher king. Here's our opportunity to put philosophy and rule together. If you come and become the teacher of this young man.

[Paul Sterman]

Right. And Plato was still committed to what you call in the book, the Syracuse project.

[James Romm]

Yes.

[Paul Sterman]

And how is that in his mind, that he really thinks he can reform or meaningfully change the ways of Syracuse?

[James Romm]

Absolutely. He writes in his latest work, his last work, the Laws give me a city ruled by a tyrant. Because the best way to institute political reform, to establish a just rule, a just system, is in a state where someone has absolute power. That person can put in place a set of a philosophically based legal code. And so my guess is it can't be proven that he was referring in that sentence directly back to his own efforts in Syracuse.

[Paul Sterman]

Right. So we have his second visit. And how does that go?

[James Romm]

Also very poorly.

[Paul Sterman]

We have a pattern, yes.

[James Romm]

But this time things played out in a much, much more slowly or at much greater length. Joe ended up spending months and months in Syracuse. He arrived to great acclaim. The tyrant Dionysius the Younger seemed to welcome him with open arms, to hail him as a. A great thinker and. And influence. But the court was riven by faction. There was a faction that disliked Dion and saw Plato as a kind of a co. Conspirator. Whispered in the tyrant's ear, over and over, these two men are out to seize your throne. And Dionysius began to listen to that and found a pretext, after maybe a month or two had gone by, found a pretext to banish Dion from Syracuse, get him out of the city altogether. Leaving stranded, more or less without his principal political backer.

[Paul Sterman]

Yeah, I mean, so he's really totally exposed at that point. And why wouldn't he just leave as well then?

[James Romm]

Well, he tried to, but the tyrant persuaded him to stay using kind of coercion that he could take Dion's worldly goods to Dion. He could become, in a sense, the trustee for Dion's estate and preserve Dion's quality of life, if you like, if he were to stay and wait out the winter. It's impossible to sail across the Mediterranean for ancient ships in the wintertime. So wait out the winter, and in the spring, we'll send you back to Athens.

[Paul Sterman]

Yeah, I mean, how much is this kind of flesh and blood Plato available to, you know, flattery, subject to the influence of, or of the usual Things that, you know, can buy off people, like you're getting, you know, amazingly good food, you're offered, you know, sexual objects for your pleasure, really great places to live or travel. I mean, was he susceptible to any of those sort of common enough things?

[James Romm]

That's an interesting question. The Athenians, I quote several rumors of this kind that seem to have been circulating in Athens. The Athenians suspected that he was there for feasting, high life, and perhaps getting monetary handouts. Have no indication that that was so those might have very well been just, you know, political mudslinging. But the principal leverage that Dionysius had over Plato was the fate of Dion. And here I think it's important, if they did have a sexual relationship or an erotic relationship, that Plato was intensely concerned over Dion's fate. And the tyrant had the ability to either withhold Dion's entire estate, that is, impoverish him, or bring him back and reinstate him as an honored member of the court.

[Paul Sterman]

Right. So the younger had kind of a feral cunning, it seems. I mean, the successful tyrants seem to possess that attribute. They know the weak spot.

[James Romm]

Exactly. This was the place where Plato was the most manipulable. And Dionysius played that to the hilt.

[Paul Sterman]

Right. I mean, possibly just as an aside, but still, I'm curious how much, if at all, did your own opinion or assessment of Plato and these human qualities change as a result of this exploration that you made into this subject?

[James Romm]

So I talk in my introduction about what I call the spell of Plato. We have this idealized image of Plato in the Western humanities, in the world of humanistic learning.

[Paul Sterman]

But does that we include you, or did it at some point?

[James Romm]

Yeah, well, and my colleagues, people in classics, in philosophy, in the humanities, we think of Plato as nearly semi divine because his works are so incredibly eloquent, important, foundational, etc. But his works give us no insight into who he was. He never represents himself in his dialogues. He never gives us access to his inner thoughts. By looking at the letters and at these events in Syracuse, I feel Plato was a human being comes across much more humanely. We're able to understand him much better through seeing him biographically. And to me, that it makes him more appealing. He's not a marble bust any longer. He's a figure of flesh and blood.

[Paul Sterman]

Right. And I mean, the criticism of him that we still get to this day, which I don't know whether you. How much you share, I know you talk about this in the book, is this. That he himself had these kind of totalitarian type Urges or visions, and, I mean, that has persisted, I think, up to the present time.

[James Romm]

Yes. There's no doubt that the Republic is in favor of an enlightened autocracy. And the letters show that he. He regarded Dion, who in many ways became a kind of a autocratic figure. We can get into that, if you like. Eventually, he took power in Syracuse after ousting the younger from power, and then showed.

[Paul Sterman]

Well, we'll get to that. We'll pick up this. I want to pick up the story where we were, but. But you can, you know. Right, so this totalitarian. Okay, so we've talked about that. Where then, in this second visit, you know, how does that end? How does that come to a conclusion? You say Plato's been there for some months. You know, do you. The younger is doing a good job playing on, you know, Plato's concerns about the status of possibly his lover, Dion.

[James Romm]

So after perhaps a year, something approaching a year had gone by. A war broke out in which Syracuse had to muster its armies. And for some reason, we're not told how that required Plato to be sent home. I think it's probably a question of Dionysius needing to shore up his credit with his hardline faction, the anti Plato, anti Dion faction at court. But in any case, he was allowed to go home on the promise that he would return when the war was over. And Plato demanded that, in conjunction with his own return, that Dion would also be recalled.

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[Paul Sterman]

Do you think that the Younger was, you know, sincere in giving Plato his word on that?

[James Romm]

I doubt it. Certainly he never lived up to it. When the time came for Plato to return, Dion was not recalled at the same time.

[Paul Sterman]

Yeah, well, that's another thing. If we want to generalize a bit about tyrants, which is they are at best, kind of promiscuous with the truth and often very easy about giving their word when they have no intention to fulfill it. And they often also seem to. I don't know if you agree this. Seem to kind of live in the moment. I mean, they're not necessarily great strategic thinkers.

[James Romm]

No, that's. That's very true. Yeah. I quote a. An anecdote connected to the Younger that he apparently said, or he's credited with saying, that men are cheated with oaths, with. With promises, just as children are cheated with dice.

[Paul Sterman]

Yeah. Well, there you go. So it seems like their skill is sometimes just to inhabit the minds of the people that they're trying to influence. And yet there's this odd. This is also going to be a digression, but we'll get back to the story you prompted me to. In the book, you mentioned Xenophon Heiro. Yeah, the tyrant. And I read that, and I think what struck me about that was it was almost this. It seemed almost charming in a way. But you had this, you know, the tyrant kept the person talking to the tyrant was going on and on about, you know, aren't there all these, you know, pleasures of being a tyrant? And isn't it wonderful? And look at all the advantages you have in life and the tyrant. I'm not a classic scholar. I didn't know whether to take this at face value or whether this is some kind of grand irony or something. But the tyrant keeps saying, actually, it's really pretty miserable and bleak and I'm not having any fun and all the rest of it. But it really struck me as just apart from all else, just how steeped this world of ancient Greece was in this kind of discussion about tyranny and tyrants.

[James Romm]

Exactly. So Xenophon's Dialogue between a Poet and a Tyrant.

[Paul Sterman]

Poet. Right.

[James Romm]

Poet Simonides was written at about the same time as Plato's journeys to Syracuse. And then there are also the writings of Isocrates that also address tyrants in parts of the Greek world trying to guide them in a philosophic direction. So you have these three thinkers at more or less the same moment, all trying to negotiate an accommodation with tyranny.

[Paul Sterman]

I'm just curious what you. I mean, again, I just wasn't sure whether to take it entirely at face value. The Xenophon won. Do you read it as ironic, or is it just really not so at all? This is just kind of genuine, you know, the poet saying this and the tyrant saying that.

[James Romm]

To me, it doesn't smack of irony. It seems pretty sincere that a tyrant can be an effective leader if he organizes his rule as a set of benevolences, handouts and gifts and awards to his people, and not as a set of punishments and penalties. So he wants to emphasize the capacity of a tyrant to benefit his people, which becomes the basis later of Hellenistic kingship in the post classical age, that kings were regularly seen as benefactors, that is, making sure their people have a good life. That's the legitimacy. That's the source of their legitimacy. And so Xenophon is trying to formulate a vision of autocracy that the Greeks can live with.

[Paul Sterman]

Right. Okay. Well, back to the. So we're still on the second visit. So how does that come to an end? Because of the war.

[James Romm]

But he was sent home, right?

[Paul Sterman]

He sent home and that. Yeah. And how long then? How much time expires before we get to the final third visit?

[James Romm]

Another five or six years.

[Paul Sterman]

Okay.

[James Romm]

Until 361.

[Paul Sterman]

Right. And at this time, Plato is what, 65? Mid-60s. Okay.

[James Romm]

And he claims he's too old to be making these journeys, and he seems not to want to go. But there's still the question of Dion's fate, his estate, his family.

[Paul Sterman]

All these tangled issues that may concern Plato personally.

[James Romm]

Right. And Dion is urging him to go because if he's at the court face to face with Dionysius, he can make a better case for Dion's restoration.

[Paul Sterman]

Right. Where is Dion at this point?

[James Romm]

He's in Athens. He is in Athens studying with Plato at the academy.

[Paul Sterman]

So they're. Okay. So Plato gets on board a ship. Yep, yep.

[James Romm]

With the hope that Dionysius will this time listen to the teachings of philosophy. He's had testimony from others at court that Dionysius really does want to learn. And it seems that the tyrant was actually interested in philosophy. He writes a philosophic treatise of his own, as we know from one of Plato's letters. So he was not, you know, Plutarch says of him, he was not the worst Sort of tyrant. He had an intellectual side. So Plato went back still with the hope of being a teacher. But quickly things fell apart and largely it was over the fate of Dion's estate, which Plato was advocating for. And the tyrant took this very badly and their relationship began to come apart at the seams.

[Paul Sterman]

Right now, in terms of the writing of the Republic, has that all been accomplished by that point or is Plato still in the midst of it or revising?

[James Romm]

We don't really know because we can't date the composition of the Republic. But there are signs that the Republic was written over the course of decades, that is composed and then revised and added to over the course of Plato's entire adult life. So if that is so, he was still at work on it, even during his third visit.

[Paul Sterman]

And remind me, I think it's book, is it book nine that centrally concerns itself with tyranny?

[James Romm]

Yes, books eight and nine.

[Paul Sterman]

And do we think that Plato wrote in a kind of sequential way, like he got to book nine after he had already completed other books? Or maybe not necessarily, no.

[James Romm]

I don't think you could say he wrote sequentially. But there are signs where within each book across the entire work, that there are late additions to earlier material.

[Paul Sterman]

Yeah. As we would expect. Is there any indication that other than Syracuse there were other kind of important models or reference points for Plato in terms of considering tyranny? I mean, I know you mentioned the rule of the 30 and so forth, but is there some other city other than Athens and Syracuse that he was thinking of as well?

[James Romm]

There are autocrats rising across much of the Greek world at this time. A man named Jason in Thessaly in what is now northern Greece, and two father and son on Cyprus and others. And several of these rising tyrants were deliberately adapting the model from Syracuse. And I described this as a kind of metastasis that Syracuse had established. Tyranny can work in 4th century Greece. It may be the most effective form of governance. And others were imitating what they saw going on there.

[Paul Sterman]

So it's contagious.

[James Romm]

It is contagious, yes.

[Paul Sterman]

Well, that's an interesting point as well that could relate to modern times.

[James Romm]

Oh, absolutely, absolutely. What's.

[Paul Sterman]

What is the immune or vac. What's the vaccine?

[James Romm]

I. I don't know that we found one, but we should also say that in the. The city of Tarentum in southern Italy, Plato saw an alternative model of one man rule, the kingship or the governance of a man named Archytas, who was himself a philosopher, a Pythagorean philosopher who published mathematical treatises, astronomical treatises, works on harmonics and optics. He was a highly educated abstract thinker who also remarkably, had great political and military talent. And the Tarantines entrusted him more or less with sole rule for this whole period, the time when Plato was going to Syracuse. So just across the Straits of Messina, or, you know, a short distance away in the heel of Italy, Plato saw a model of a better kind of autocracy. And that also, I think, influenced his thinking in Republic.

[Paul Sterman]

Well, and that says something good of him as well, that he was learning by his own experience. And he was not so set in his own initial dogma or preconceptions about tyranny, but was willing to have the world teach him a little bit about how these tyrannies could actually function. Or not.

[James Romm]

Yes, exactly.

[Paul Sterman]

So good. So what happens then on the third visit?

[James Romm]

So the relationship broke down. Plato became deeply suspected of designs on power and was more or less banished from the palace complex where he had been housed as an honored guest and thrust into this very bad neighborhood where the mercenary soldiers of the tyrant lived, the barracks, if you like, of the military.

[Paul Sterman]

And yeah, there's a kind of geography to Syracuse which might maybe we can just comment on because there's, there's what, there's like the island and then there's this kind of connecting bridge or something like that, and then there's the kind of. The main grounds.

[James Romm]

Yes, the island, as Syracusans called it, was actually a peninsula, but attached to the mainland by only a very narrow causeway.

[Paul Sterman]

What did they call it?

[James Romm]

Well, Ortigia, which is still called today. And your listeners who've been to Syracuse probably stayed in Ortigia. That's the sort of tourist neighborhood.

[Paul Sterman]

Yeah, I'm going to be going there myself in a couple of weeks, but we can. But my wife booked us something on the island because that seemed like the place to stay. But to get back to your book, it was interesting to me how there seemed to be this perpetual struggle underway at this time between sort of island forces, non island forces, access to ways to get out of. I mean, I know we're not in the age of drone warfare, so it's literally kind of hand to hand kind of stuff and all that. But it sounded pretty menacing.

[James Romm]

Yes, the two Dionysii, the father and son, had established the island, this incredibly well fortified peninsula, as their base and the center of their power. And they housed their mercenary corps, their immensely strong army, hired army on the island and stocked it with weapons, with food, with, and housed Ships, their. Their navy in its harbor so that it was virtually impregnable. And that was really the. The source of their longevity, the. The longevity of their dynasty.

[Paul Sterman]

And where was Plato housed on this third visit?

[James Romm]

So Plato was still on the island. He was booted out of the palace, but he was housed on the island among the soldiers. And this became very dangerous because the soldiers too, suspected him of who signs on power.

[Paul Sterman]

Yeah. Was that like a reasonable suspicion, though, in your mind?

[James Romm]

Well, you know, it's not unreasonable.

[Paul Sterman]

Okay, well, that means. In my mind, that would mean reasonable, plausible.

[James Romm]

You know, we don't know what's really in Plato's mind. The letters, all except one, are public documents. They're written to a private recipient, but they're copied and circulated. They're meant to be read by a wide population. And they're extremely self protective and self justifying. So Plato presents his motives in the letters in the best possible light. Those around him, including the tyrant and his hardline faction, suspected that in fact he was aiming at a coup and to put Dion on the throne. We can't say that that's wrong. There are good reasons to think that Plato would have been very happy with that outcome and perhaps actually meant to bring it about.

[Paul Sterman]

Well, I mean, you have your own kind of feel for the guy. I mean, I know just as a professional journalist, and I've also, I've written a couple of nonfiction books where you, after a while, you know, even if you're only reading letters and all that kind of stuff, you kind of feel like you have a feel for someone. At least I do. So I don't know, I just wondered. It's not that I know that you can't know, but whether you develop the kind of feeling about Plato that he.

[James Romm]

Was capable of, that I don't think he meant to instigate a coup, even though that's what many in Syracuse suspected. But I think he would have been happy if one took place. And when Dion later did overthrow or oust the tyrant and take power himself, Plato, in another of his letters, says, I'm totally behind you. And you know, this is great. So I think he played it cautiously. He did not want to be seen as an insurgent or, you know.

[Paul Sterman]

Right. Well, he held.

[Commercial Narrator]

He did.

[Paul Sterman]

It's not like he held a strong.

[James Romm]

Hand here, and he did not hold a strong hand. He writes in the Republic that there are two ways to achieve a philosophic regiment. One is if a philosopher becomes a king, and the other is if a king becomes a philosopher.

[Paul Sterman]

Right.

[James Romm]

And he had both paths open. Or he saw a possibility that A, he could educate the tyrant Dionysius and make him more philosophic, or B, Dion, who was already a philosopher, could assume power. I think it was a toss up to him as to which of these was the better path, but I think he was interested in. In both of them.

[Paul Sterman]

Yeah. Interesting. I mean, it would just seem more likely that it would be the. The king that can become the philosopher, since, you know, the king already has the power, whereas it's harder to. For a philosopher, I would imagine, to take power.

[James Romm]

Well, but let's not forget Dion was born brother in law to.

[Paul Sterman]

Yeah, okay. In the case of Dion, it's. It's maybe a. Yeah, he was already of the royal family in the right. He was in the family.

[James Romm]

So he had. He had a dynastic claim, so it was not unthinkable. And. And as later came to pass that he could be installed in place of Dionysius.

[Paul Sterman]

So how does it end? Plato's third visit as we. We should be moving towards. Towards wrapping up and anyway, so there's.

[James Romm]

Still a lot more to come because the situation breaks down into a civil war and we won't have time to deal with that. But.

[Paul Sterman]

Well, as affects Plato's person.

[James Romm]

As affects Plato's person. So Plato had to be exfiltrated by Architas of Tarentum, the man I described earlier as a kind of philosopher king. He sent a distress message to Archytas and was rescued literally by a ship sent from Tarentum and then made his way back to Athens. Very much in defeat.

[Paul Sterman]

I see. So in defeat. Okay. Well, on that note, I think I will leave you to a feline interlude, and I would encourage readers to take up this book. Speaking for myself, I am by no means steeped in this particular period of time, but I do find it fascinating. I think there are all these resonances, as James suggests, to present times. Also, if, as happens to be the case, in my case, you plan to visit some of these places, then I think a book like this would be a great accompaniment to help enrich your experience. So thank you very much, James. And that's it for now on America and Beyond. I'm Paul Stereben.

[James Romm]

Thank you, Paul.

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