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- [00:00]
A
This episode is brought to you by Avid tv. Where do savvy minds go to find masterful documentaries and hard to find films from across the globe? Try a free month long trial at Ovid and go beyond the mainstream. Indiewire says Ovid is unafraid to program films that matter. And the New York Times calls Ovid a terrific streamer for independent film fans. A boutique hand curated streaming service. Yet now with over 2,400 titles, Ovid is the home to films by auteurs from Chantal Akerman to Chris Marker to Wang Bing and has the richest collection of probing, avant garde and provocative films anywhere. Ovid offers many things except conformity. Try Ovid today and get your first month free. Use promo code N B N O V I D. That's Ovid TV promo code nbnovid. Hello everybody, this is Marshall Po. I'm the founder and editor of the New Books Network and if you're listening to this, you know that the NBN is the largest academic podcast network in the world. We reach a worldwide audience of 2 million people. You may have a podcast or you may be thinking about starting a podcast. As you probably know, there are challenges basically of two kinds. One is technical, there are things you have to know in order to get your podcast produced and distributed. And the second is, and this is the biggest problem, you need to get an audience. Building an audience in podcasting is the hardest thing to do today. With this in mind, we at the NBM have started a service called NBN Productions. What we do is help you create a podcast, produce your podcast, distribute your podcast and we host your podcast. Most importantly, what we do is we distribute your podcast to the NBN audience. We've done this many times with many academic podcasts and we would like to help you. If you would be interested in talking to us about how we can help you with your podcast, please contact us. Just go to the front page of the New Books Network and you will see a link to NBN Productions. Click that, fill out the form and we can talk. Welcome to the New Books Network.
- [01:55]
B
Hi, this is Rebecca Buchanan, host of New Books Network, New Books in Popular Culture and today I am here with Saurabh Habiban who is the who is here to talk about the book. Plenty for all the Art of Rick Freudberg. Sohrab, thanks for being here with me today.
- [02:12]
C
Oh, my pleasure. Thanks Riff. Thanks for having me on.
- [02:14]
B
Could you start by talking a little bit about this book and this. It's a tabletop art book, this collection and how this sort of came, to be sure.
- [02:25]
C
So Rick Fobberg and I were in a band together called Obitz. That band was around for about 10 years. And so over the period of that time, we got to know each other very, very well. And I knew that he was an artist because when I first met Rick, I actually met him through his artwork. A friend of mine, mutual friend, took me to see an art show of his and I bought a painting of his. So that's how actually I met Rick. And then over the course of being in a band with him, I got to see all of the work that he was doing, both for our band, for other bands and pieces that were commissioned, as well as just random art that he was interested in and was working on. And he died two years ago. And after he died, another mutual friend and I were talking about just what an incredible artist he was. And Rich Jacobs, who is the curator of this book that I worked with on, he actually, I will say as a side note, sadly died in November of leukemia. But Rich and I were talking and Rich said we should really put an article together just to show the world not just how prolific Rick was, but just what an incredible deep, deep artist that he was. Because a lot of people who may be familiar with Rick might know him from the artwork he did that was more music related, but there was so much of his art that was not music related, that really, truly is fine art and not graphic design for a record cover or something. And so we went to John and Temple, who's an old friend, and he runs Akashic Books. And we thought he would be the perfect person for it. So we, I don't even know if we could say we pitched it to him, but we, we, we started talking about it, he was immediately on board. So that was great. So it had a home. And then we went about trying to figure out how we were going to assemble this book. And as you said, it's a coffee table book. It's 256 pages. There's 400 and something images in there. And we first, Rich and I started to solicit as much artwork as we could just to see what was out there, figuring there were things that we weren't going to be familiar with. And we were overwhelmed by just how much work there was. And thanks to Rick's partner Britt, she was able to scan all of his notebooks. So we had access to all these other files that we otherwise would not have been able to see. And we went through literally thousands of images and sort of made Little stacks, some digital stacks, some actual paper stacks of things that we thought how it could be organized, what should make the cut, what doesn't necessarily need to be included. And we just kind of went about it like that and went through and did several edits until finally we felt that we had enough to accurately represent the breadth of his work, but also enough that it felt substantial, because that was the thing that we wanted to get across, that he was a substantial artist, not, you know, he wasn't just an illustrator of cool lot records.
- [05:20]
B
And. Yes.
- [05:20]
C
So that's. That's. And we worked quite a bit on it until we finally felt we had it in shape. And Johnny and Johanna and Aaron at Akashic, very generously, really found a terrific printer. And I think it came out in a way that really generously reflects Rick's work. The colors are great. The paper texture is nice. The COVID turned out really beautifully. It has three different textures on there. So, yeah, I'm really. There could not be more K's with. With. With how it came out. And I'm excited for people to see it.
- [05:50]
B
Yeah, it is really beautiful, right. And very vibrant. I love the vibrancy of the color and the mixture. I mean, there, like you said, there's so many sort of textures and colors and images in it. Like, it's. And I'd love for you to talk about, like, how you ultimately started to sort of choose the text, right. Because you. There's pencil sketches, there's computer images, there's sort of black. Like these really vibrant black and white images within it. So, yeah. Can you talk a little bit about just how the book is structured itself? And. And sort of. Because you do it in kind of different. Which is. You do it in different chapters, which sometimes you don't see.
- [06:34]
C
Well, that was actually that. That was one of the things we're trying to figure out how, you know, Rich and I were going back and forth now, do we just do this chronologically? And so then you see some pencil. Pencil sketches in between, some etchings in between album art. And then we just thought that would feel too haphazard because he really worked on a lot of stuff all the time. And so then we figured, well, if we organize it by medium, then at least you can sort of get these digestible chunks. And you go. After working on the book, I kind of returned it in. There was a period of time before I came back from the printer and I just sort of. And think about it at all. And when we got it back, I started going through it and sort of check, you know, checking our work and seeing how we had done. And I was just really overwhelmed by how dense it is. There's just. There's so much work in there, and I'm glad that we organized it by medium because it sort of gives you a little. Just a little window to look into, and you don't have to go through the whole thing at once. You know, it's almost better to flip through the whole thing quickly and then go back and take a chunk and spend some time with it, because you really. You see pencil, you see ink, you see gouache, you see painting, even blue glass. He. And when I. He and I actually worked together at this.com/era, company called Funny Garbage, and he was animating cartoons, and I was doing music for those cartoons. And at that point, he was learning how to do digital illustrations, which was something that he was not a Luddite. That's not really fair. But he definitely was not a pro technology guy. But he was sort of drawn into it because of this job. He had to figure out how to use this tablet to get his illustrations in the computer, and he ended up really liking it. And so there's a period towards the end of the book, there's an area where it's sort of computer illustrations and work that he did kind of more commercial work that he did for cartoons and so sort of more graphic things. And again, you sort of see the evolution of his art, but there's always this sort of richness in all of it, this kind of this.
- [08:39]
B
He just.
- [08:40]
C
He had a way of seeing the world that was very singularly his. It was a combination of curiosity, criticism, and humor. And I think that those come through in all the images. And some of the images are dark. You know, the message is. Is sort of foreboding. And others are just funny, like, laugh out loud funny. One of my favorite ones is one of the ink ones where it's a couple on a horse and they're being serenaded by another man on a horse. And that guy's playing a guitar, he's wearing sunglasses, he has a little headset microphone. And it's just the amount of detail he puts into this drawing, into this. This ink piece is just incredible and hilarious. I mean, it's beautiful, but it's also like literally laugh out loud fun. And so I wanted to make sure that we captured those elements in the book. You know, so you sort of. In some of the etchings, they're very serious. They look like it could be a goya piece or something. But then in some of the ink stuff, maybe it looks more like a Raymond Pettibone. But then he also has this very wholesome quality to it, like this sort of 1950s American utopia. But there's a darkness in there. And I think he manages to capture the beauty in the darkness, which I really love.
- [09:57]
B
Yeah. So you talk. I mean, he is known more so as a musician. Yes, as you said. So can you talk a little bit how you even, like, sort of solicited this art and how you got it right? You knew some of it. But as you're saying, like, part of the reason for this book is to get people to really see him. And as a visual artist, just a performance artist. So can you. Can you talk a little bit about how you went about just being like, we need to find these pieces and put this together?
- [10:26]
C
Yes. Well, so let's see. So, as I said, we were in a band together for about 10 years, but we've been friends for probably closer to 20 years altogether. And one of the nice things about the music community that we're from is that it's very intertwined. And so we know people around the world who are in bands, who've put on shows, who are involved in putting out records and sort of. We were able to sort of reach out to everybody after Rick died and say, you know, we're working on this book. If you know anybody that has something, or if you yourself have something, whether you think we've seen it or not, please just send us a phone snap of it or whatever. And so that was really the way that we did it was through word of mouth. Maybe somebody put something on their social media, Rich or I, but I doubt it. I think it was literally all just through word of mouth. And to that end, I think there's probably things that are still out there that we haven't seen. Maybe somebody who was a fan of his and commissioned a piece and who we just did not know to contact. So who knows, maybe there'll be a Volume two at some point.
- [11:36]
B
Well, yeah, like, this is one of those things where you will probably surprisingly find people who are like, oh, I have this piece. Because in the. At the very end you also have a list of his shows, right? So he had shows. So you might have people who are maybe at some of those shows who are doing that kind of thing as well, so.
- [11:55]
C
Yeah, exactly. Or maybe art, because there's a lot of those shows or group shows, so maybe another artist and training pieces, Whip, you know, so there's a possibility of work out there that has yet to be seen, which is exciting because I really. And again, if you look at the book, you see just the development of his art and how some of it, you know, he used to go to museums and just copy masters. So you just sit there and draw. So look up at a Van Gogh or something, or look up at a Rembrandt and just, you know, sketch it. So he was self taught. And so, you know, I think that you see those elements of him sort of the student forever, you know, always studying, whether it's a new medium, whether it's curiosity about an artist he was unfamiliar with or was getting more into. And he did the same thing with music, which was one of the fun things that it was to be in a band with him as we were always talking about music and if you heard this or this old thing that we rediscovered. And so he was doing that with music, with art and he was just an incredibly curious person and that comes through in his art.
- [12:58]
B
So you kind of talk about him being self taught and going and sketching things when were there do, you know, sort of the time span of this work. Like what is the sort of more. I mean you have more recent pieces and you talk about some of the computer generated, but yeah, how, how far back does this go in his work?
- [13:19]
C
Well, the, the very first image in the book is actually a childhood drawing of his which looks like, it looks like a kid drawing. And yet it's unmistakably Rick. Like you see it in the book and you're like, man, of course that's his, you know, it's so it's, it goes back very far in that regard. But once, once the work actually starts, I would say the earlier pieces are probably late 80s, late 80s, early 90s. And that was really, I think part of it was being involved in music. So he did a fanzine and then he was in a band. So he was doing artwork for his bands. And then there was a local record label that was asking him to make art for their advertisements for other fanzines. And so I think it first started with the music related stuff and then he just got more and more into it though. I think he always was drawing, you know, even as a kid, I know that he was drawing, but it didn't really sort of formulate itself into, you know, I am an artist. And I actually think you would probably argue that he was not an artist.
- [14:20]
B
I was just gonna ask you that.
- [14:22]
C
Yeah, he was. I mean, he's very self deprecating So I think that he. And because he never formally went to art school, I think he. And also, I don't think he left the pretensions that surround the art world. So I think that he preferred to be a guy in a rock. He even called the music he made lousy. So he preferred to be on the sort of on the fringes of things as opposed to in the middle of it. And the trappings he was not interested in at all.
- [14:51]
B
I love that at the beginning you do. I mean, it's basically image heavy. Right. But at the beginning you do have an artist statement from or pseudo artist, which is hilarious. Like, it's really great because it's this, like, I feel like, you know, he's like, well, you want me to be kind of serious, but I'm really going to throw in some of myself. I don't know.
- [15:11]
C
Yes.
- [15:12]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [15:13]
C
It's sort of. It's the self bias that is perfect because it's. I mean, it does give some factual information, but it also is very tonally. It's so perfectly Rick. And you know, I think he says, he signs it off, you know, yours at a price, you go. So he, he underst. He understood that. He also understood that he had to make a living. So, you know, he, he was not opposed to doing work just for the sake of doing work. And I think in a lot of ways that's how he saw himself was as a graphic designer. So you could hire him, you could hire him to do a logo for, you know, the, the. The network or what, you know, whatever it is. And he was happy to do that. You know, he, he kind of believed in, in the hard work of just putting pen to paper, you know.
- [16:00]
B
So one other thing you don't. I mean, that is you have sort of. You bookend with sort of an introduction and sort of a conclusion, you know, like these short pieces, but there's nothing throughout it besides like this is. This chapter covers this, you know, the chapter titles. There's no text. So can you talk about that decision too, to just sort of give us the art and not kind of inform us about what the art is. Right, that idea.
- [16:31]
C
Yeah. Well, so there's a couple reasons for that. I mean, when you say there's no text, literally it's just page numbers. I mean, there's not even. They're not piece titles. There's not the size or, you know, we collect them in chapters by medium and even editors, it's a little loose, but yeah, there's no information. Part of it is because when we were first gathering the images, we were having a really hard time getting information for all the images so that it would be consistent. So not everything had a title. Not everything did we necessarily know what the size was. And so, you know, that we had an Excel spreadsheet with all of the images and as much information as we could gather for each one. And it actually got it to the point where we had so little that was consistent across all the images that we thought it would be weirder to have, you know, title on one page, size on another page. You know, it just seemed to be a little too hectic and felt disorganized. So we just thought, well, let's just present the work for the work and, you know, go with it as that. But we also early on talked about maybe trying to find somebody who was a more formal artist, writer, a critic of some kind to come in, go through the book with us and maybe write a more formal art essay or something, an overview. And we talked about that for a while, and we decided that it's not something we thought Rick would really want because, again, he was so against the pretensions of the art world world. So have somebody from outside of his world come in and talk about his work in a collection of his work seemed almost potentially to insult the spirit of Rick. So we just thought, you know, whatever Rick did, he did, he did, and he let you judge it for yourself. And so we thought, well, let's continue that with the book. Let's put the work together, put it out there, and if there are critics who want to talk about it, there's a form for them to do that. It just won't be in the book.
- [18:44]
B
Well, and it. To me, in. In looking through it, at times, I felt like I was looking at, like, sort of someone's sketchbook. Right. I. It was a very more personal kind of sit down. And yes, like, some are more formal, but there were some where you have like five or six or sometimes, you know, even more images on one page, page. And so there's this feeling of, were these just part of this, these sketches that, you know, someone is doing, or computer images someone's putting together to decide which they wanted. Right. So it gave that. It gave an. For me, I like the feel of that kind of going through it.
- [19:21]
C
Well, it's interesting that you say that because there's also. In going through his files and all the images, particularly going through, there were tons and tons of digital files that we could go through from his later period. And I was finding in those files, you know, in this, the application that he was using, there is the sort of the board that you do that you see is the main focal point. But then on the sides of the pasteboard that aren't part of the actual frame, they're not in frame. But if it's an area where, you know, you make a little sketch, you throw it to the side and you decide you want to use it or not use it or whatever, it's sort of a working space. And I was finding in various images in that side working space, images that would later be in the frame of another piece. So he used, he used this sort of digital, these apps as kind of sketch. Sketchbooks. And so sometimes in a sketchbook you have an idea that's, you know, it's in its decency. And so it's not really. There's not much, there's. But then later you see a more fully fledged version of it. And he was doing the same thing in the digital form as well. And that was really, for me, was fascinating to see because maybe I had seen the final one, but to see an earlier kind of, you know, less put together version, it's just in the sideboard, you know, just the pasteboard. It was, it was, it was pretty neat.
- [20:45]
B
That is awesome.
- [20:47]
C
Yeah, so I. Yeah. And so in assembling it, I did want to kind of give the feeling of. So some of the pages, you said there's multiple images on one page, particularly the ones that are more. The graphic stuff around music. I also thought that those are pieces that people would be more likely to see or have seen rather. And so I felt it wasn't as necessary to feature them as a single image on a page or, you know, it would have to be a thousand page book if we had done something like that. But also just to give it that feeling that there's some pages that are maybe more or little collections of, you know, mood boards or whatever.
- [21:24]
B
So you. And sort of towards the end, there isn't an unpublished book. Was that something like he was working on or was that something that anybody kind of knew about? You just came across like, yeah, I.
- [21:37]
C
Wish I could ask him. But not only did we include it, but we informed us of something really important. So when we were going through all these digital files that had been scanned, it turned out that at the height of the pandemic, he actually was putting together a book. He even got a quote from a printer. And in that quote it specified the dimensions of the book. And Rich and I had Been talking. We'd actually spent a day going to East Village, all these art bookstores, picking up different books, trying to see, oh, this dimension feels good. Oh, this is too heavy. This is too tall. So trying to figure out what size we wanted the book to be. And then we came across these files of Rick's for this unpublished book where the size was specified, size that he wanted. And we thought, well, there it is. That's the answer. That's the size the book should be. Hold on. But, yeah, so those are things that, as far as I know, nobody knew about it. He just was working on himself, and he got a quote, and nothing ever came of it, so we wanted to include it. And then after that, there's the unpublished book, and then it ends with watercolors, which were. Those were the last. It was kind of the last medium that he was exploring before he died.
- [22:46]
B
So are there. I know you said there's hundreds of images in here, but do you have any? And you mentioned one that you really loved. Are there other ones that either surprised you that you want to talk about? Right. Like, are there a couple images that you want to. Yeah. Share stories about?
- [23:04]
C
Well, some of the ones that surprised me. There's an early one. There's a couple early ones that are in pencil that are just so stunning and beautiful. I mean, they really look like the work of a master. And those were fascinating to me because there's no. There's no humor. There's no. There's. There's nothing. There's no spikes in it at all. Which, you know, a lot of his work, there'll be a little. There's a. You know, it could be thorny here and there. Again, like, he loved beauty, but he also loved to expose the thorns and things. But his early pencil drawings, there's none of that. They're just like these exquisitely rendered portraits. And that, to me, was totally mind blowing. Just to see what incredible. What an incredible draftsman he was to have that power over, you know, the pencil. But then I guess later on. But I'd seen. I knew of a bunch of his ink work, and that's sort of in the 90s when he was in Span Drive, like Jehu, one of their record covers is this really beautiful. Just black and white ink drawing on the COVID And so I think a lot of people were familiar with that style that he used. But just to see so many more that I had never seen. And again, just the depth, the angle, the perspective. And I started noticing, for example, he has a lot of Animals interacting with other animals in unusual ways. So it's a monkey riding a horse or it's a dog snarling at an elephant. You know, I mean, he loved the animal kingdom. And he would actually. One of the files on his hard drive was a folder just filled with animals doing ridiculous things. And so they were in all these weird poses. And then you see that in his drawings. You see that in his work. You have these animals in these really, what seems like exaggerated physical poses, but it shows off their muscularity. It shows off just the. The body of the elephant, the horse, the monkey, you know, the dog. And. And I really just started to appreciate just how much he put into rendering the. The form, you know, whether it was manimal or human. And then just the humor. I mean, just. He was such a funny guy. And so finding the humor in his work too was something I really enjoyed. Like there's a series of. I guess he had. He was in drawing from models. And so there's a series of oil paintings and he grades himself. So there's one where you see a face and then to the right it says C. So, you know, he was just. He was just a very, very funny guy. So I want to make sure to include those. Some of those elements, you know, that would. Would seem off the cuff otherwise. But in the context of all this work, you get to sort of see like, you know, he was serious, but he was also really funny.
- [26:00]
B
Yeah. So you mentioned the animals in the animal kingdom. I wanted to ask you about the COVID image because it is. Right, it's these two tigers that are standing on their hind legs. Like they're going at it like they're in a boxing ring. Like very. Right. Human esque. So, yeah, can you talk about the choice for. I mean, and it's these beautiful orange and yellow and red colors. Can you talk about the choice of your. Because you had so many to pick from your cover image.
- [26:30]
C
Yes, we did. We were very lucky to have so many options for the COVID But that one was. Was an image that we thought the colors were really stunning. And the composition is both familiar because you said it's almost like two boxers, except they're tigers, but there's that seated person in the foreground. And it has enough things that sort of are familiar, but it is also something a little bit almost like a dream like about it. So that was very appealing. But also his use of color is just so great. And we thought if that's on the COVID and then we use those blues that are also on the COVID Or colors that he used a lot. And we also. The chapters are all separated, these color spreads, and those were sort of very consistent with Rick's color palettes. And so we figured the colors on that particular image with the blues would just be a really something graphic that would catch your eye and draw you in, which is, you know, of course, the COVID that's. We wore in blues. Hope that people are willing to go.
- [27:39]
B
No, I love. I do. I was like. When I got it, I was like, oh, this is a great cover because it is so vibrant, and you see those sort of connections throughout the book with it. So what is going. Like you collected a lot of his work. What is happening to it? Like, are you trying to keep it together? Like, whatever you can gather together as a collection? Did it just sort of get back to wherever it came? Yeah, like what?
- [28:05]
C
I. I wish. I wish I knew. I mean, the things that people obviously belong to people, those are all back in their rightful homes. But I believe his family, his three brothers and his father have whatever that was that was at Britt's house when he died. And so I think they're sort of the custodians of. Of what's left of his work. One of the things I know Rich was really interested in, and we talked about a lot at the beginning of the project and again, once we were finishing up, was the idea that hopefully this book could be a calling card of sorts and sort of to get this book, if we can, into the hands of museum curators. And hopefully it's something that somebody will see and will say he's never had a formal museum show before for. And that's something that I would love to see, because I think his work is more than worthy of that. I also would love it if a university decided they wanted to collect everything and have University of California in San Diego or something would be appropriate, since that's where he lived. If a university library would take over the collection, I think would be tremendous. But those are all me just kind of rambling. I don't really know.
- [29:20]
B
Yeah, no, because sometimes, you know, you put these together, like, was this. Do you. You mentioned his family, you mentioned his partner. Were these, like, with people who knew him and knew him well? In. In seeing this was a surprising to people, like the vast amount of work you were able to gather, or is this something that those of you who are close to him knew is there and you just wanted other people to kind of see it and know it's there?
- [29:45]
C
A little bit of both. I mean, I Think we, you know, I think anybody that knew him knew just what an incredible artist he was, but because of his personality, maybe took it for granted a little bit, but also had no idea how much work he had produced. I think everybody, all of his friends and family, once they saw just how much there was, it was shocking, actually. And as someone who spent a lot of time with him, I was trying to figure out when he was making the art. You know, I mean, it wasn't when we were at band practice, so it was when we were on tour. So I don't, I don't. You know, it's just somewhere, somehow he was doing it and that. To me, there's a lot of questions I still have, but that's one of them is when were you doing it?
- [30:30]
B
So we talked a bit about, you know, sort of all the things like this. So my final kind of question to you is promoting this. So the book is out now. Can you talk a little bit about what's going on with the book? Any kind of self promotion with this or any other sort of further projects or work you want to talk about that has to do with it?
- [30:52]
C
Well, so the book. Yeah, the book came out on the sixth and next week we are doing a series of book events as well as the week after. We've done two already. And the idea behind the book events was that we want to make them fun and sort of very much in the spirit of Rick. And so we basically spend about a half an hour and Johnny from Akashic and I sit down and discuss the book. And we have some images that we project so we can talk about specific images and you can see them. And then after about, I would say, 30 to 40 minutes of talking about the book lead to clear the stage and then we set up to do a short set of music. And so for that, for all the events, people, local musicians in every city that we're going to that had a connection with Rick are joining us. And so we're basically doing one song from each of Rick's four main bands and then two cover songs that meant a lot to Rick.
- [31:54]
A
So.
- [31:55]
C
So you. So, yeah, and that's sort of a little bit of a funnel fun way to end the evening. So it's only six songs, so, you know, 20 minutes or something like that. And. But it's a way to kind of like honor that side of Rick's work as well as just having a little bit of fun. And, you know, Rick loved rock and roll, so, you know, that's a great book.
- [32:14]
B
Yeah, well, that was the thing, too.
- [32:15]
C
We didn't want it to be like a staid book thing. So, you know, just thought kind of make it a little. Give it a little. The little zip.
- [32:21]
B
Right. Well, thank you again for talking with me. Saurabh about this.
- [32:27]
C
Thank you very much.
- [32:28]
B
Yeah, plenty. For all the art of Rick Froberg. So thank you so much.