New Books Network: Princess Joy L. Perry on This Here Is Love

Podcast: New Books Network
Episode: Princess Joy L. Perry, "This Here Is Love" (W.W. Norton, 2025)
Date: January 31, 2026
Host: Sullivan Sommer
Guest: Princess Joy L. Perry

Episode Overview

In this episode, Sullivan Sommer interviews Princess Joy L. Perry about her debut novel, This Here Is Love. The discussion explores the novel’s historical setting—17th-century Virginia—the creative process behind its writing, and the profound questions the text raises about love, morality, and the legacy of slavery. Perry delves into her inspirations, research methods, and literary influences, as well as her approach to character development and the challenges of writing historical fiction. The episode remains spoiler-free, focusing on thematic and process-oriented insights rather than plot specifics.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Writing Journey: Timing, Experience, and Loss

• Could the novel have been written earlier?
  Perry reflects on how personal loss—her father's passing at age 39—became essential to her capacity to write the book with depth (04:42).

  “That grief needed to be a part of the writing of this book, that losing something that is irrevocable needed to be a part of that.” (05:10, Perry)

Inspiration: History, Personal Experience, and Literary Influence

• Early exposure to silenced histories:
  Perry recounts a formative childhood experience: visiting Hope Plantation, a place where slavery was omitted from the official narrative (06:55).
• Literary influences:
  She cites Toni Morrison and Gabriel García Márquez for their “layering on of images and thought” and the emotional journeys their novels inspire (08:00).

  “To be able to communicate layers of beauty in language, the way they did, is something that I aspire to.” (09:20, Perry)

Historical Setting: The Anchoring Role of Virginia

• On location and authenticity:
  Perry describes living in Virginia and researching local sites, such as the landing place of the first Africans and Monticello, as crucial to grounding her novel (12:07).

  “Those beginnings, how slavery came into being, how it changed and morphed over time... I could go and see and touch those things here.” (13:09, Perry)

Balancing History and Storytelling

• How much history to include?
  Perry explains her instinctual approach, using just enough historical detail to illuminate character motivations, not to deliver a textbook (14:49).

  “I only used enough to help explain how the character became the person that the character is.” (14:54, Perry)

Research Process: Details that Matter

• Researching objects, especially instruments of oppression:
  Perry shares her deep dive into the craftsmanship of a whip—a recurring and haunting symbol in the novel (17:42–21:47).

  “It is a horrendous and ugly tool, but it is one of the things that would have been pretty ubiquitous...this is an instrument of torture that someone put almost a level of artistry into.” (20:45, Perry)

Character Development and Moral Complexity

• Centering "whiteness" and character sympathy:
  Discussion of Jack, a white Scotch-Irish character, centers on whether he is sympathetic and the process of ‘becoming’ an enslaver (23:02–26:42).

  “It's not because he's bad. It's because this is the way I get taken care of. And so I think that he suppresses the parts of himself that know better in order to have physical security and what he takes for emotional security.” (24:30, Perry)

• Pairs and opposites:
  Sommer observes how Perry’s narrative juxtaposes characters, often posing the same question to them and showing their divergent responses (26:42–28:05).
  Perry credits the subconscious in her writing:

  “There was so much going on in my subconscious...and you come back and look at it later and you're like, oh man. Wow.” (29:13, Perry)

The Revision Process

• A decade-long endeavor:
  Perry outlines the evolution of her manuscript, including the decision to remove a white-centered character to allow her Black characters agency (31:00–33:39).

  “In taking that character out of the story, my African American characters, my enslaved characters, were free to find their own solutions and to make their own destinies.” (32:19, Perry)

Thematic Questions: Morality, Love, and Judgement

• Is morality a luxury?
  Sommer raises the provocative question of whether morality is a luxury in the context of systemic oppression (34:22–37:31).
  Perry responds:

  “Morality is not a luxury. But I think the society that we live in and the society that shapes my characters would have us think that morality is a luxury.” (36:13, Perry)

• Meaning of the title—“This Here is Love”:
  The choice of title reflects both a declaration and a question repeatedly explored throughout the novel (37:31–41:59).

  “So many different ways in the book that the characters show—this thing that I am sacrificing or giving or that I do or that I won't do, this is what love is to me.” (39:12, Perry)
  Sommer:
  “For me anyway, a very natural inclination is to turn it into a question. Is this love?...it reappears so many times in the book, like—Is this love?” (40:02, Sommer)

• Judging choices:
  The conversation addresses the difficulty—if not impossibility—of judging a character’s (or person’s) choices under the pressures of enslavement (41:31–42:59).

  “Who can judge her decisions? Who can say she did the right thing or the wrong thing? No one.” (42:51, Perry)

Novels as Vessels for Teaching History

• Perry didn’t set out to write a “teaching novel,” but views the accurate historical framework as essential for character plausibility (43:17–45:31).
• She emphasizes the value of being “true to the history” while exploring the lived experiences behind the facts (45:31).

  “So the history is very important. And I tried as best I can, as someone who was not a historian, to be true to what I actually found in my resources.” (45:38, Perry)

Who is this Book For?

• Perry sees her novel as valuable for those seeking to understand the origins of contemporary racial inequities (47:57–51:53).

  "If we disregard the history, if we forget the history, then we have a false idea about why our society has the inequities that it does...” (49:10, Perry)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the necessity of grief in storytelling:

  “As strange as it may sound, that grief needed to be a part of the writing of this book...there's no one-to-one comparison of what my characters went through and what my character lost. But those losses...gave me some kind of insight into how the characters might have felt.” (05:07, Perry)

• On the complexity of creating historical fiction:

  “I tried very hard to be true to the history. What would have been possible in that time? Within this structure, within these rules, what can I do?” (45:31, Perry)

• On judgement and trauma:

  “In this system of enslavement where there are no good answers, no good choices...Who can judge your choice?” (42:33, Perry)

• On teaching history through fiction:

  “The novel as a way of teaching history is a happy side effect ... but what I was exploring was why did humans in these circumstances make these decisions? And the history is the framework that I needed.” (43:40, Perry)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• Personal Loss and Writing — 04:42
• First Encounters with Plantation History — 06:55
• Literary Influences — 08:00
• The Role of Virginia’s History — 12:07
• Balancing Fact and Storytelling — 14:49
• Researching the Whip — Tools & Symbolism — 17:42
• Centering Whiteness & Character Sympathy (Jack) — 23:02
• Pairs and Opposites in Character Construction — 26:42
• Revision Process & Character Agency — 31:00
• Is Morality a Luxury? — 34:22
• Meaning of the Title — 37:31
• Judgement in the Context of Enslavement — 41:31
• Teaching History through the Novel — 43:17
• Historical Novel Self-Identification — 45:31
• For Whom is the Book Written? — 47:57

Tone and Takeaways

The conversation is deeply reflective, candid, and suffused with a blend of humility and scholarly thoughtfulness—mirroring both Perry’s narrative style and the host’s literary engagement. Perry’s approach to fiction is grounded in empathy, research, and lived experience. Both guest and host encourage readers and listeners to question history, morality, and the enduring impact of systemic oppression, all while acknowledging the complexity and ambiguity within each.

Ending Note:
Princess Joy L. Perry’s This Here Is Love is a richly textured exploration of survival, love, and agency in the crucible of early American slavery. This conversation invites readers to sit quietly with challenging truths—and to confront the questions the novel so powerfully stirs.