Podcast Summary

Podcast: New Books Network

Episode Title: Rebecca Nagle, By the Fire We Carry: The Generations-Long Fight for Justice on Native Land (Harper, 2024)
Host: Steve Houseman
Guest: Rebecca Nagle
Date: September 16, 2025

Overview

This episode features journalist, podcaster, and Cherokee Nation citizen Rebecca Nagle discussing her acclaimed book, By the Fire We Carry. The conversation explores the generations-long struggle for justice on Native land, centered around the landmark McGirt Supreme Court case and its deep historical roots. Nagle shares personal and legal perspectives, aiming to illuminate the complexities of Native sovereignty, history, and law for listeners unfamiliar with federal Indian law or the histories of dispossession and resistance in Oklahoma and the broader United States.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Rebecca Nagle’s Background and Motivation

• Personal Path to Journalism:
  • Nagle began her career in community organizing and arts advocacy, which led to writing influential opinion pieces—most notably about Elizabeth Warren's claims of Cherokee identity. She became more interested in writing after seeing its power to shape conversations.

    “There were a couple pieces that I wrote that had a really big impact…one of the first things I wrote that went kind of far and wide was about Elizabeth Warren's false claims of being Cherokee. And it helped shift the conversation.” (02:58–03:30)

  • Her interest in the McGirt case was initially personal, as it threatened the lands for which her ancestors had sacrificed so much.

Setting the Stage: The McGirt Case

• Inciting Incident—August 1999:
  • The story begins with the murder of George Jacobs by Patrick Murphy on a rural Oklahoma road. Murphy’s subsequent conviction and death sentence led, during the appeals process, to legal questions about whether the crime happened on reservation land. (05:50–07:25)
• The Legal Spark:
  • An investigation into the murder location revealed a jurisdictional quandary. If crimes on reservations involved Native perpetrators, Oklahoma lacked jurisdiction; instead, federal or tribal courts had authority. This challenged the longstanding assumption that reservation status had been extinguished. (15:16–19:33)

Deep Roots: History of Muscogee and Cherokee Nations

• Forced Removal & the Trail of Tears:

  • Both Muscogee (Creek) Nation and Cherokee Nation originated in the southeastern U.S. In the 1830s, state and federal actors forcibly removed them to Indian Territory (now Oklahoma) to make way for White settlement and the expansion of slavery—often through violence and broken treaties.

    “...Cherokees and Muskogees were basically run out of their houses and consistently terrorized by settlers...What followed that treaty was the Trail of Tears, where an estimated quarter of the Cherokee population died.” (08:07–10:12)

  • Nagle’s ancestors, Major Ridge and John Ridge, struggled with impossible choices as tribal leaders, showing the complexity and painful consequences of that era.

• Connecting Past to Present:

  • The reservations under dispute in the McGirt case were the lands secured as a result of these harrowing removals, deeply connecting the 1830s to present legal battles.

    “...the land that is promised in that treaty is the foundation of the Cherokee Nation reservation today.” (12:52–13:10)

The Legal Odyssey: McGirt v. Oklahoma

• Legal Developments:

  • Federal public defender Lisa McCallmont’s detailed review of the Murphy case led to the groundbreaking realization: The Muscogee reservation was never formally disestablished by Congress. (15:16–19:33)
  • Oklahoma, since statehood in 1907, had simply ignored these reservations.
  • The legal question at the Supreme Court: Did Congress ever abolish these reservations? The plain reading of the law showed that it had not.

• Supreme Court Decision:

  • After two rounds of argument (the case name changed from Murphy to McGirt), the Court ruled in July 2020 that the reservations still legally existed.

    “...the Supreme Court handed down their decision and they ruled that Muskogee Nation still has a reservation. And it was this, you know, amazing victory. I was crying. Everybody was crying. It's a very emotional day.” (23:54–24:19)

• Effects on Patrick Murphy:

  • Murphy’s case was retried federally. Because tribes must consent to the federal death penalty (and only one allows it), Murphy was spared execution. (22:22–23:27)

Aftermath and Wider Impact

• Jurisdictional Changes:

  • Overnight, eastern Oklahoma’s legal status changed, requiring Native nations to quickly expand their justice systems.
  • In practical terms, the state lost jurisdiction over crimes involving Native people on reservations; tribal and federal courts gained new (but still limited) authority.
  • Jurisdiction over non-Natives remains heavily circumscribed. The big change concerned cases with Native perpetrators or victims. (23:54–27:00)

• Backlash and Political Response:

  • Oklahoma's governor and some officials launched a vigorous backlash, seeking to undermine, limit, or reverse the decision.

    “...our current governor...is currently in a fight with Tulsa because Tulsa...has said that it’s going to cooperate with the tribes. And so now Stitt is directing his anger at Tulsa...I think the easiest way to describe Stitt's behavior is almost like a temper tantrum.” (27:46–29:40)

  • Despite public polling showing most Oklahomans supported cooperative implementation, political leaders like Governor Kevin Stitt repeatedly petitioned to overturn or limit the ruling.
  • Tactically, the fight shifted to undermining the practical meaning of reservations in areas like taxation, law enforcement, and regulatory authority.

The Broader Significance

• “All the court did was follow the law”:

  • Nagle highlights the long legal pattern where courts found ways to sidestep treaty rights to avoid “disrupting” the expectations of non-Native people. The McGirt decision was “radical” only in that the Court finally obeyed the law as written.

    “...the real reason is just that we don't want to upset the expectations of non Native people...But instead, the court followed the law.” (32:41–34:43)

• Intergenerational Resistance:

  • At heart, the book is about the generations of Native people who fought—often against impossible odds—to preserve sovereignty and land. Nagle hopes readers carry away an appreciation for this continual resistance and agency.

    “I think what I hope would stay with them is...the impression of generations of Native people who have fought for their land and their sovereignty.” (35:36–36:09)

Looking Forward

• Future Projects:
  • Nagle is working on a new podcast for the 250th anniversary of the Declaration of Independence, examining how Native people have been written out of the American story.

    “...looking at how Native people have been written out of that story and written out of the American story writ large. And that's not just a problem for Native people, it's a problem for our country...” (36:37–37:17)

Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Ties Between Past and Present:

  “I wanted the reader to understand where that [powerful reaction to McGirt] came from. And, of course, it comes from history.” (11:59)

• On the Legal System:

  “The real question is whether or not the Supreme Court is going to follow the law. Right…Will the Supreme Court follow the law or will it kind of get a little creative and make things up?” (19:53–21:30)

• On the Victory’s Limits:

  “I think what's unfortunate is that we've had to spend a lot of time and energy fighting the state of Oklahoma even after the big fight was over...That...hasn't allowed us the space to really think about the reservations more expansively...for future generations." (30:44–31:33)

• On “Radical” Legal Obedience:

  “…all the court did was follow the law. But still, that was radical.” (32:11–32:45)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Rebecca Nagle’s Background & Entry to Writing: 02:42–05:17
• Murder of George Jacobs & Legal Chain Reaction: 05:17–07:31
• Long History of Removal and Treaties: 08:07–12:29
• Connecting Past to Present: 12:29–15:16
• Legal Investigation & Discovery: 15:16–19:33
• Supreme Court and McGirt Decision: 19:33–23:33
• Aftermath and Political Backlash: 23:54–31:33
• Discussion of the “Radical” Simplicity of McGirt: 32:11–35:02
• Hopes for Reader Takeaway: 35:15–36:09
• Rebecca’s Upcoming Project: 36:37–37:17

Conclusion

The episode offers a powerful, multi-generational look at the ongoing fight for Native land justice, illuminating both legal nuance and lived experience through Rebecca Nagle’s personal and journalistic lens. Listeners gain accessible insight into the legal, political, and cultural dynamics at play in the McGirt decision and its far-reaching implications for Native and non-Native communities alike.