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Rob Harvilla, "60 Songs That Explain The 90s" (Twelve, 2023)
00:53:03
An interview with Rob Harvilla
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- [00:00]
Interviewer
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Rob Harvilla
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Interviewer
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Rob Harvilla
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Interviewer
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- [00:29]
Marshall Po
Hello everybody, this is Marshall Po. I'm the founder and editor of the New Books Network and if you're listening to this, you know that the NBN is the largest academic podcast network in the world. We reach a worldwide audience of 2 million people. You may have a podcast or you may be thinking about starting a podcast. As you probably know, there are challenges basically of two kinds. One is technical. There are things you have to know in order to get your podcast produced and distributed. And the second is, and this is the biggest problem, you need to get an audience. Building an audience in podcasting is the hardest thing to do today. This in mind, we at the NBM have started a service called NBN Productions. What we do is help you create a podcast, produce your podcast, distribute your podcast, and we host your podcast. Most importantly, what we do is we distribute your podcast to the NBN audience. We've done this many times with many academic podcasts and we would like to help you. If you would be interested in talking to us about how we can help you with your podcast, please contact us. Just go to the front page of the New Books Network and you will see a link to NBN Productions. Click that, fill out the form and we can talk.
- [01:32]
Rob Harvilla
Welcome.
- [01:32]
Marshall Po
Welcome to the New Books Network.
- [01:48]
Interviewer
Welcome to the New Books Network. My name is Greg Soden and I am delighted to welcome Rob Harvilla to the podcast. On this episode, Rob and I talk about the brand new book 60 Songs that Explain the 90s. The book discusses the magical decade in which I grew up and dives deep on the songs that defined my most formative years. From the Cranberries to Tool to Metallica to Hull to Nirvana to Soundgarden to Fugazi, Shania Twain and Weezer. This book and its complementary podcast are a triumph in musical commentary, in my opinion. I have loved Rob's work for a long time now and it was a real thrill to connect and have this conversation. Find Rob's book 60 Songs that Explain the 90s and the podcast of the same Name. Wherever you get books and podcasts, please enjoy this conversation with Rob Harvilla. Rob Harvilla, thank you so much for joining me today to talk about your book on New Books Network in music. Thanks for being here.
- [02:50]
Rob Harvilla
Thanks for having me, man. I'm excited to be here.
- [02:52]
Interviewer
So, Rob, I am wondering if we can just start off by having you tell the listeners out there a little bit about who you are and what you do.
- [03:01]
Rob Harvilla
Okay. I host a podcast called 60 Songs that Explain the 90s. It started in the fall of 2020 and just recently here in November of 2023, I put out a book, like a companion book. The show is like, you know, one song, one special guest per episode. I write, you know, word for word and recite sort of a monologue essay on the song in question and then I interview somebody about it. So the book is sort of a compilation of those essays, sort of remixed, you know, scrambling up the songs, getting them in conversation with each other. A lot of new stuff as well. But, you know, it's just, it's definitely a nostalgia based podcast to start, but I, it's gotten some really unexpected directions for me. It's lasted a lot longer and I thought it would. We are up now TO I think 110 songs. We're going to do 120 probably total. And, you know, it's just been a thrill. You know, I've never done a podcast before, any kind of audio thing, and just the feedback I've been getting, right, like the emails, the DMs, you know, and it's mostly people just talking to me about their favorite songs of the 90s and their memories and stuff like this. But it's just a really gratifying, you know, experience for me.
- [04:21]
Interviewer
Yeah, you know, I know you primarily as the host of 60 songs that explain the 90s, the podcast. I've listened to your podcast now for a couple of years and I really, really enjoy what you've always done. And you know, before we, I'm just curious what your creative process for the writing because it's so intense and I know that you have a long history of, as a career as a writer, so the writing might be a little, you know, come naturally to you because it's, it's in line with what your career has been for years. But tell me a little bit about your creative process because this is kind of a behemoth, you know what I mean? It's a big deal.
- [05:00]
Rob Harvilla
It is for sure a behemoth. You know, I, I've been a professional critic, you know, editor, writer for 20 plus years. You know, I graduated college in 2000s, you know, got a job at an alt weekly here in Columbus, you know, and I've worked primarily, I've worked at a bunch of different places, websites, papers, et cetera. But it's. I've been a rock critic, music critic, basically, you know, for 20, 25 years. And I joined the Ringer when it launched in 2016, you know, and again, you know, I'm just. I'm reviewing albums, interviewing people, doing features, stuff like that. But I. My concern always with my criticism, you know, if I sit down to write like a Lana Del Rey review, like, first of all, I feel like I. I tend towards sort of convoluted, you know, overlong sentences, you know, like all these parentheses and semicolons, et cetera. Like, I just, I. I got too many adverbs, man. And the other thing that I worried about was that I think it's easy. It was easy for me in rock criticism to fall into this trap of only writing for other rock critics, right? Like, just assuming a lot of knowledge. And so I'd write a thousand words about Lana Del Rey, but I would. You would have to know every detail of Lana Del Rey's career up to that point. There's all these in jokes and sort of arcane, specialized rock critic language, you know. And like, my mother in law, you know, who's really smart and really well read, would read what I wrote. She's like, I really liked what you wrote. I'm like, oh, thank you. She's like, I didn't really understand any of it, but it was. It was very well written. And so I. I think there were a lot of things that were immediately different to me about writing this show. But the one thing that I wanted from the onset, and it helped that I had to read these things out loud is like, I wanted the writing to be simpler. I wanted it to be more conversational, even if it's not a conversational. And I wanted it to be accessible. Accessible, you know, to everybody. You know, you didn't have to be. You didn't have to know all these. This rock critic jargon. You didn't have to know the full history of whatever artist I'm talking about. Like, you know, there's. I can bring some of that to bear, you know, and that's helpful. You know, the critical analysis part is part of it for sure. But I. I do want. I do want it to have a wider appeal. And I did, you know, like, just if you were Alive in the 90s, these are the Songs you remember, and like, you remember them, you all have your own personal memories attached to them. Maybe you love them, maybe you hated them, you know, maybe you were always curious about them but didn't, you know, never got into them and want to know more now. I just wanted it to have a much broader appeal. And I think, you know, they always say, like, writers should read their stuff out loud because that's where you'll realize how convoluted your writing is. And so just being forced to recite everything I write into a microphone on a zoom with, like, other people on it, you know, I think this sort of kept me honest and I think changed in a fundamental way the way I write and the way that I'm, you know, conveying information to people.
- [08:13]
Interviewer
Yeah. You know, I'm an English teacher, and whenever my students write creative fiction and short stories, I have that. I put them in editing groups where they have to read the story out loud to a person across from them, and they come up with it is. And they come up with so many edits and suggestions for each other, but also realize where the heart of their story actually is and figure out what they need to take out, what new directions they need to go to. It's part of the editing process, you know, so I totally resonate with that. And, you know, I'm curious about your list process for identifying what songs originally went into the podcast, but then as the podcast has grown far beyond 60 songs. Tell me a little bit about, like, identifying the main things. What are the criteria that you put in place for yourself to choose the songs?
- [09:03]
Rob Harvilla
Yeah, when we set out, it's like, all right, 60 songs. 60 was arbitrarily chosen because 30 didn't feel like enough and 90 felt like too many. That's as clear as I can put that. Yeah. So you open up a Google Doc and you just write down a bunch of songs, and then you sort of informally group them into, like, oh, we have to do this. Oh, it would be cool to do this, you know? Oh, like, nobody else cares about this song but me. But, like, this is. I, I. This one is for me. Right. You know, and so the, the list of songs that you have to do is what? You know, like, the Notorious B.I.G. tupac Nirvana, you know, of course, like, you know, you can. You can make a list with, like, 15 or 20. Like, how are you going to talk about the 90s and not talk about this song type situation? And then there's like, a lower tier of, like, really, really big deals. Like, you could probably get away with it. But like, you know, and so you're just sort of ranking them informally just by an importance, you know, and, and so as we got closer to 60s, we got closer to the end, you know, the, the, the Google Doc kept growing, right? The list of songs that we could potentially do kept growing and it was like, holy crap. Like, you know, I, I, I want to keep going, you know, and they were nice enough to let us. And so, you know, first of all, we had 30, so now it's 90. And then that's not enough until we had 30 again and now it's 120. And as we do that, you know, we do try. It's totally arbitrary week to week, what song I do, right. These are not ranked in any order, you know, by importance, you know, by, you know, it's, it's not a ranked list where, like the last episode is going to be the best song in the 90s or whatever. Like, it's, there's also, you know, I'm just trying to mix it up between genre, you know, between year within the 90s, just because, you know, 1991 feels very different from 99, etc. It just sort of keep things fresh and hopefully unexpected for people. And also for me, you know, if I wake up one day and decide, you know, that I just want to think about, whoop, there it is for a week. Like, I can do that.
- [11:15]
Interviewer
Yeah.
- [11:15]
Rob Harvilla
And so I think that. But we tried to hold out, you know, like a few ringers, you know, like Nirvana always was looming, right? Like smells like Teen Spirit was always looming. And for a long time I thought it would be the last episode of this.
- [11:31]
Interviewer
Right.
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Rob Harvilla
But then that got to feel like, too expected, you know, I think that's what people thought was gonna happen. So. Well, it's like, well, let's do something surprising and do it like the start of a season, you know, I don't really think it was like episode 91 or whatever. And so I, Yeah, it's, I still have this Google Doc. I was looking at it last night. I was stressing out over, you know, I have 10 spots left, you know, and I have all these songs I still want to do, you know, and some are huge, massive hits, some are more personal, more important to me, but I want to retain that balance, like, all the way to the end.
- [12:07]
Interviewer
Gotcha. Well, and you got to interview Courtney Love, which was pretty sweet for that Nirvana episode too.
- [12:13]
Rob Harvilla
Holy moly. Yeah, that was wild. You know, that's, I think, pretty, you know, objectively the most surreal thing that's ever happened to me.
- [12:22]
Interviewer
And she liked you. Like, I think that she really enjoys your podcast, and she seemed to have a genuinely good time chatting with you. That episode was so cool for me, as well as a listener.
- [12:32]
Rob Harvilla
Well, thank you. Yeah, it was wild. You know, I had done whole. Right. I had done doll parts earlier, and somebody had passed that episode along to her. And so she reached out, we started talking, you know, and I. Not in a billion years would I ever been like, hey, you want to talk about Nirvana? Like, you know, just. That's the presumption of that, you know, how personal that obviously is to her. You know, I. It's.
- [12:53]
Interviewer
She.
- [12:54]
Rob Harvilla
She sort of brought it up at one point. You know, I told her I think that I was thinking of doing the Nirvana episode soon. I just. I figured I would give her a heads up, right? And she's like. And then she didn't really respond. But then a couple weeks later, she's like, hey, you know, should I be the guest? And I was like, holy crap. Of course, of course. And yeah, yeah, she. We talked for like two hours, you know, and we talked is maybe not the way even to phrase it. Like, you know, you just. It's. You just want to just let her rip. Right? You know, exactly the way that her mind works and the connection she's makes and the tangents. Right. You know, like, I'm prone to tangents myself, as you may be aware, but, like, this is on another level, and it's awesome, you know, just to see, you know, the way she weaves, you know, songs that she loved as a kid, you know, and suddenly very personal, very painful stories in some cases, like, just the way it's all connected in her head. You just have to follow along, you know, and she will get there, you know, even if it takes, you know, an hour and a half. Like, it was just. It was such a cool and unexpected experience.
- [13:58]
Interviewer
Yeah, well, and I know that some of your scripts you've. You've mentioned and written in some places, I think in the acknowledgments at the end of the book, where some of your scripts were 10,000 words. And so which is. Which is wild. I mean, it's like it's a full piece and. Yeah, but then in the book, you trim the songs that you have selected down into sections that you've broken into themes, and then weave the story from band to band to band so you can cover eight or 10 songs in one chapter instead of one song on an episode. How did you identify the ones that Kind of fit together as far, far as the, the storytelling goes within the chapters.
- [14:39]
Rob Harvilla
Yeah, it's like the scripts. The first episode of the show was Alanis More Said. And like, that script was maybe 2,000 words. You know, the, the first 10, I think there were only two 10,000 word episodes and Nirvana was one and the other one, arbitrarily, was Pantera. I have no idea how that interesting is. Right. I mean, I, I can't claim, at least in high school or whatever, to have been a huge Pantera fan. I was coming to them pretty fresh. But, you know, something about the enthusiasm of that. You know, I've managed to pull it back a little bit to now it's around 8, you know, 8,500 a world, which is still way too much. But, yeah, it's like when I set out to write a book, I have 500,000 words, literally, of source material. And it's like, it's going to be easy, but of course, like, I got to compress that into an 80,000, you know, 100,000 tops word book. And so I just, the process started with me just rereading the scripts, you know, finding the parts that I liked, you know, and just sort of seeing how they fit together and how I can get these songs in conversation with each other. So there was a chapter, what did I call it? I, I, I've got the book right here, the chapter, you know, about, like, artists whose music feels like other universes, like just different universes. You're like a tourist listening to Outkast, listening to Missy Elliot, listening to the Wu Tang Clan, listening to Mob Deep or listening to Bjork and how it feels like they just sketch out an entirely new universe for you. But you sort of, with the Wu Tang Clan, right? It's a matter of being respectful of these people come from somewhere really concrete, you know, and the fact that I have no experience with where they come from, you know, I just, I sort of want to be respectful about what I know and what I don't know, you know, when it comes to this sort of thing. And, like, also in that chapter is the Pulp song Common People, which is one of, you know, my favorite songs. And that song is about, you know, like, a rich lady, you know, slumming it with poor people, like, cosplaying as a poor person, you know, and the song is from his perspective and, like, he's an actual poor person, and he's like, you know, everybody hates a tourist, especially when they think it's all just the laugh. And so that Chapter is sort of about the way that music can be transportive and can show you new perspectives in entirely new universes. But it's a matter of holding in your head again what you know and what you don't know and just sort of having respect for the fact that, like, this is. You're inhabiting this universe for the space of a song, but, like, this is where they live. This is where they grew up, you know, and just the difference is there.
- [17:38]
Interviewer
Yeah. You know, for me, this book. I know that you. You. You did a recent live event to launch the book with Yassi Salak from Band Splain, and it was a really great. It was a really great conversation that you two had because you were talking about why this era matters to you, and you're. You simply said it's because it's when I grew up. And so for me, that resonated a lot because I discovered music watching Woodstock 94 on MTV when I was 11.
- [18:03]
Rob Harvilla
All right?
- [18:04]
Interviewer
Living in the. Living in the suburbs of St. Louis. And, yeah, it was a really powerful moment for me because I went from, you know, that into Dookie, into that. That Dead Eye Dick song that was on the Dumb and Dumber soundtrack, New Age Girl, and then the Cranberries. Yes, Zombie. And so Zombie is actually one of my favorite sections of your entire book because of your attention on Dolores O'Reeden's life and how amaz that song was. So for me, all of this is just the absolute perfect time. So I think if people are 40 or, you know, 37 to, like, 45, it's a. It's just such a perfect book because the ones that resonated so much with me were Metallica, Pantera, Real Big Fish, Fagazi, Green Day, Cranberry Soundgarden, you know, Rage, Weezer, Tool, Sunny Day, real Estate, and Blink 182. And so those were, like, my sections of the book that I honed in on. And I was just curious, like, what your thoughts are on. On, like, those particular sections, like, what you feel like that says about me as someone who, like, discovers music@woodstock94, and then, like, fits so perfectly within the demographics of this book. Like, what is that? What is that? You know, what thought does that bring to mind for you?
- [19:26]
Rob Harvilla
Sure. You had, like, the pay per view. How did you watch Woodstock 1994?
- [19:31]
Interviewer
It was on MTV.
- [19:35]
Rob Harvilla
Okay.
- [19:36]
Interviewer
Yep, I watched sections of it. I vividly remember watching Metallica play Enter Sandman and thinking that Kirk Hammett was, like, the coolest looking person I've ever seen. In my entire life. And it was just such a. It's just burned into my brain, you know?
- [19:52]
Rob Harvilla
That's rad. That's so cool. I thought that was like a super pricey pay per view maybe. I'm thinking, what's that, 99?
- [19:58]
Interviewer
It wasn't like a full broadcast as far as I remember. It was just, you know, selected tracks, I think. But it was so amazing for me.
- [20:08]
Rob Harvilla
Yeah, but to your question, like, what I have realized over the course of doing this is the reason the 90s are so important to me. As I was a teenager in the 90s, I went to high school, I went to college, you know, and I do believe with all my heart that, like, the music you loved when you were a teenager is the music you'll love most in your life, you know, and so I. And that's held true for me, you know, I have the same kind of stories, you know, about hearing Longview. You know, somebody's got a copy of Dookie, you know, and he's driving me around, and I hear Longview for the first time, you know, and then, like, it seemed like a few months later, you know, I'm at the Blossom Music center, you know, in the Cleveland area outdoor amphitheater at a $5 Green Day show. And there's like, a grass fight. And it's like this idyllic teenage memory. And like, anybody who was a teenager in that area at that time, like, seems like they were at that show and they remember that show. That was our personal Woodstock 94, you know, and I was an alt rock kid. And so it totally resonates with me what you're saying. Like, that list of bands was my list of bands, Right? You add, like, Pearl Jam, Nine Inch Nails, Smashing Pumpkins, you know, Pavements, eventually, weirdly. And so I. Yeah, it's just the feedback that I get, you know, the messages that I receive, you know, overwhelmingly it is people about my age. I'm 45, you know, so like, you said late 30s, early mid-40s, you know, that's. That's the sweet spot for a thing like this, you know, because even something, you know, like, even music that you didn't think that you liked at the time, like, I didn't necessarily listen to, like, the Spice Girls by choice at that time, but I heard that song a billion times because it was on in my college dining hall as I'm eating my swirl ice cream cone or whatever. And so I have all these memories associated with the Spice Girls. Even if I think I don't, I Tried not to overdo the nostalgic aspect of this, but it's undeniable, sort of as a foundation, that some of my most vivid memories from this time are also the most mundane. It's just me driving around with my friends, you know, listening to Pre Hate Machine, you know, or the Dave Matthews Band or whatever, and it just. The way that music, for me, and I think for a lot of other people, can make mundane circumstances feel spectacular.
- [22:42]
Interviewer
Yeah.
- [22:42]
Rob Harvilla
You know, it's such a magical thing.
- [22:45]
Interviewer
Yeah. Your description of you being in the car listening to Dave Matthews crash into me was a really wonderful part of the book because it's just the. The power of what these moments can do in the lives of a group of friends and how everybody's kind of like, oh, maybe. Maybe somebody is, like, gonna have a little cry right now. You know what I mean? It's really powerful. But something else that really stands out to me is how present so much of this music still is. Like, in the last year, I have seen Metallica and Pantera live together. I've seen 182 live. I saw Saturday Real Estate Live a couple months ago for the first time ever. And so. So much of this is still so relevant. And these shows are selling out. You know what I mean? Like, people from. From, like, our little demographic, I feel like, are still going to shows and introducing it now to their kids, and it's, like, living on. It's not fading away.
- [23:41]
Rob Harvilla
No, it's.
- [23:42]
Interviewer
It's.
- [23:42]
Rob Harvilla
In some ways, it's cyclical. Right. Like, you know, the. The 90s. I don't like to think like this, but, like, I try to remember being a teenager in the 90s and how far away, like, the 60s and 70s felt to me. Then there's that Mike Watt song against the 70s, you know, that Eddie Vedder sings, you know, and it's, like, warning against 70s nostalgia. You know, kids from the day should defend themselves against the 70s to realize that, like, the 90s are like that now. You know, the 90s are older now than the 70s were then, obviously. And it doesn't feel like that, but it is that way. But I. I do think if I try and separate, you know, again, that I was a teenager, and that's all that matters of it. I do think that the 90s does hang together as a cultural force, as a musical force in a different way. You know, the 2000s don't feel quite as distinct to me. The 2010s don't, you know, aesthetically, as you say, you know, like, there's The Dave Matthews Band is still touring. You know, in some cases, it's a nostalgia thing, right? Like, Booty and the Blowfish will have a festival in Mexico, you know, with, like, the Gin Blossoms, Fastball, you know, and five to 10 other, you know, bands you remember, like Dead Eye Dick's probably touring somewhere, right? You know, probably. In some cases. In some cases, it's just, you know, the 90s bands that are still around become, like, now they play 90s music, right? Like, the genre, the distance between, like, a Sound garden and a bush and an R.E.M. you know, are collapsing, and it's like, oh, those are all bands from the 90s. That's awesome. You know, like, I've seen tons of festivals like that where I see, like, the Offspring and Live and Bush, you know, play within a half hour of each other. And, like, it wouldn't have made sense to me at the time because those were different bands in the 90s, you know, with what I felt were anywhere, were different audiences and different vibes, you know. But the farther we get from the 90s, you know, the more, you know, all the bands that are still around from the 90s become just 90s music. And it is still totally prevalent. You know, you hear it, you know, in music that's being made today. You know, like, people talk about Olivia Rodrigo, of course, like, the pop punk of it all, you know, that's a very 90s and early 2000s sort of vibe. You know, the 90s does feel present, you know, to a larger degree than I ever thought would be possible, you know, 30 years out.
- [26:17]
Interviewer
Amazing. Okay, so something came up in the book that I had me just cackling with glee. And that is the presence of your citation of the book In Defense of Ska by my friend Aaron Carnes.
- [26:31]
Rob Harvilla
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [26:32]
Interviewer
And I want to give you the moment to, you know, wax about ska momentarily, because I was so happy that Aaron's book was cited in your book and made me just totally joyful.
- [26:43]
Rob Harvilla
It's a great book, and I'm. That's cool. It's cool you guys are friends. I mean, my. My credentials here, and I never get tired of telling anybody this is that I was in a ska band.
- [26:54]
Interviewer
Yes.
- [26:54]
Rob Harvilla
My freshman year of college. Called Scantily Plaid.
- [26:57]
Interviewer
Nice.
- [26:58]
Rob Harvilla
Scantily with a. With a K. Like sky. It was. It's a great name. It wasn't my name. I played bass in a ska band, you know, out of my freshman year dorm, you know, and we played, like, three, four shows total. Like, we were, quite frankly, not Very good. We did not last. You know, we broke up and then everyone else in the band reformed without me as an emo band. And I was like, well, that sucks. But so, yes, Scott's a good example of something that feels, even if this is wrong, it feels like it only could have happened in the 90s, right? Like the 90s, very specifically, was this time when, like, everyone would get obsessed with, like, ska or neo swing, right? You know, like the cherry popping daddy's moments, you know, just the randomness of that, like, just the baffling and delightful randomness of that was really cool. But Scott, you know, I. What I remember, remember now is like, that's 96, 97, you know, and sort of with the passing of Kurt Cobain, like, grunge has sort of peaked, you know, and faded away a little bit. You know, even a band like Pearl Jam is sort of pulling back from being. Wanting to be the biggest band in the world, you know, Green Day is a big deal. Pop punk is a big deal. But, like, there was a vacuum to some extent in 1996, 1997, and what we thought was going to fill it was electronica, right? Like, with, you know, the Chemical Brothers, Prodigy, et cetera. Like, these are the new rock stars, like dance music, electronic music. And that was true to an extent, and I love that stuff. But, like, what sprung up instead, like, semi organically was, you know, no doubt, real big fish, as you said, like the Mighty Mighty Boss Stones, who'd been touring forever by that point, but suddenly they have this big hit, you know, with the impression that I get, you know, it felt very random, you know, and I know that there's an undercurrent, you know, of music industry machinations or what. Like, I don't want to be naive, but, like, it did feel at the time like anything could happen, you know, and any weird, you know, obscure style of music could suddenly become huge overnight, if only for a few months. And, like, that was a cool feature of the 90s for me.
- [29:20]
Interviewer
Yeah. Awesome. I love that. So there's another band I want to know about because this is one of the most transformative records that came out for me in middle school, and I got it from a friend of mine and I borrowed it and I conveniently never gave it back. And that is Tool Enema.
- [29:35]
Rob Harvilla
Oh, my God, is that the best.
- [29:37]
Interviewer
Tool record ever released, in your view?
- [29:41]
Rob Harvilla
I think so, yeah. I would have to say, yeah. It's so funny because I. Tool is the band that I. One of the 90s bands that I Listen to the most now, like, just for pleasure. Quote, unquote. Like, not. It's not any kind of research, you know, I did a Tool episode. I did Stink Fist forever ago, and it was awesome. But, like, I don't need to listen to them for work or for research anymore. But I still put Anima on all the time. And so I. You know, I've seen them a few times. I saw them very recently. Well, very recently meaning, like, a couple years ago. But they played sort of arenas, and I went with my buddy and I had a. I had a blast. You know, like Lateralists. Right. Is a great record as well.
- [30:25]
Interviewer
Yeah.
- [30:25]
Rob Harvilla
Like, Undertow is a pretty good record, but Anima, you know, I just. I'm thinking about, like, 46 and 2. Oh, my God. You know, Jam for me. Eulogy. There we go. Say yeah. Like. Like, just. Just starting to even try to list off the songs on that record. Like. Yeah, I think that's easily the best record. Tool record. And, yeah, Tool, far and away from any other bands that I've talked about, is the band that I keep returning to just instinctively. And I don't know what that says about me that's a little disturbing, but that's the way it is.
- [31:00]
Interviewer
Did you get into Pussifer or A Perfect Circle or Empty Void or any of the other projects from the people in Tools?
- [31:07]
Rob Harvilla
Just A Perfect Circle, you know, and I.
- [31:10]
Interviewer
Probably.
- [31:11]
Rob Harvilla
Both those records. It's just two. Right. Like, I. A little bit. But, you know, that was mostly based on the singles. Right? Like, yeah, three. I forget what.
- [31:21]
Interviewer
Three. Libras and Judith, I think. Yeah.
- [31:23]
Rob Harvilla
Yes, those. I mean, I. I saw those guys live. They came to Columbus as well, and that was really, really cool. And I love that band, Failure.
- [31:31]
Interviewer
Oh, yeah. They're drummers in Perfect Circle.
- [31:33]
Rob Harvilla
Right, right, right. Yeah. So I. I knew there was some kind of connection there, but I've never gotten into, you know, like, I. I guess I should, you know, But I. I've never gotten any deeper than a Perfect Circle, but I've seen those guys a few times as well. And like that.
- [31:48]
Interviewer
Yeah, the. The thing that I got into about Perfect Circle the most was that Josh Freeze from the Vandals was their drummer for a long time, and I was, like, a huge Vandals fan. Like, I went to see the Police one time with Sting when Josh Freeze was playing with Sting as his drummer, and I wore a Vandals live Fast Diarrhea T SH Standing against the barricade and Josh Freeze actually saw me, and it was like he Just started laughing because there's this guy in a Vandals T shirt with Nitro records and, like, lime green across the back of the shirt standing against the barricaded. A Sting show. And it was a. A really good moment where I was very proud of myself for going and supporting one of my favorite musicians in one of his other projects that happened. Just be a way, way, way more famous singer.
- [32:30]
Rob Harvilla
Did he ever play with. With Guns N' Roses?
- [32:32]
Interviewer
Yeah, he did. He played with Guns N' Roses, Devo, the Vandals, Perfect Circle, Nine Inch Nails. Now he's in the Foo Fighters. Of course. That guy was in everything.
- [32:43]
Rob Harvilla
Yeah, that's.
- [32:43]
Marshall Po
I.
- [32:43]
Rob Harvilla
That's. I knew him primarily as, like, yeah, the guy who's in everything. Like you say, like, he's just. He's the hired gun.
- [32:50]
Interviewer
Yeah, exactly. Tell me a little bit about your. Your collaboration and collegiality and friendship with Yassi Salak, because I love her podcast bandsplaying, too.
- [33:00]
Rob Harvilla
Yeah, me too. I mean, we started at the same time, you know, roughly the same time. Bands playing in 60 songs. You know, we were both part of this initiative within Spotify called Music and Talk. The idea being that, like, a podcast would have songs embedded in it, like full songs. And so you talk for a while. It's like, now we're going to listen to a song and then you play the song, you know, and the way it worked for me is the song came at the end like it was sort of like cheating. But what drew me to her show immediately was the fact that the first episode is Steely Dan, right? And so she's talking to a guy, and a guy's trying to talk her into liking Steely Dan, but then they can stop and play Reeling in the Ears in full and then talk about what he likes about it. I really dug that format and I really dug just how knowledgeable and how funny and how collegial Yossi is, and the fact that you can just sit and listen to her and her guests talk about, you know, PJ Harvey for eight hours. You know, these are just deep, the deepest possible dives, you know, so there's an element of that show that I love that's like this super, like, nerding out or whatever that, you know, I know I can picture Yassi there with her 100 page Google Doc where she knows everything and, like, she could read off, like, Joe Strummer's, you know, grades in elementary school or whatever. But also, it's also so funny and so fresh, you know, and I. It does the thing that I aspire to do with my own show, which is to move between again, you know, like deep dive sort of rock critic stuff, you know, and heavy research. But it doesn't feel heavy, you know, it has a lightness to it and it has a joy to it and an enthusiasm that's accessible. Even if you don't know anything about the Clash or if you know everything about the Clash. Right. Like, that's always the magic trick is to try and appeal to people who know nothing about a topic and everything about the topic without alienating either side, you know. And what's so cool to me about that show is that it's fulfilling whether you know nothing about somebody or everything.
- [35:14]
Interviewer
My. My favorite non Rob Harvilla bandsplain episode is the Weezer one with Barry from Joyce Manor. I thought that episode was absolute amazing.
- [35:23]
Rob Harvilla
And that's a rad. I love Joyce Matter so much too.
- [35:25]
Interviewer
So.
- [35:26]
Rob Harvilla
Yeah, you're absolutely right. That's awesome.
- [35:28]
Interviewer
Rob, how are you consuming music these days? More than ever, Less than ever. Like, what's your. What's your listening habits? Because I find myself in this weird place at 40 where I'm listening to less music than ever, like on a record, but I'm seeing more live shows than ever. Like, I'm getting all of my music live these days, it feels like. And I'm wondering if your listening habits have adjusted over the years. Years.
- [35:50]
Rob Harvilla
That's wild. I'm jealous of you, honestly. You know, I'm here in Ohio, you know, I got three kids, including a three year old. I'm not getting out to shows, you know, with the frequency that I was, you know, when I was in New York City, you know, and childless. Right. And it was my job ostensibly to go to shows. And so it's not, you know, if I get to a show once a month, I'm doing awesome, you know, and it's really not that, you know, Covid obviously was. Was super intense, you know, and we were locked down a little, you know, the show was born in lockdown, you know, in 2020, you know, and I do think that that's not a coincidence, you know, that I just, from the depths of my office here, you know, just reaching out to people, you know, suddenly became a priority for me. I think I'm listening to the same quantity of music, you know, and I just, I'm just. I just have Spotify primarily on all the time. Right. Like, what's different? What I sort of track is, like, what kind of music I'm listening To, you know, like, before, you know, I was listening to primarily new music, you know, and it would be my job, you know, when Taylor Swift's Midnights comes out, you know, at 12:01am, you know, Thursday into Friday, like, it'd be my job to sit there and listen to it five times immediately and then write a thousand words on my initial impressions or whatever. Right. Like, the difference now is that I'm listening to music Primarily that's from 30 years ago, that's from my childhood, you know, and sometimes I'm coming to something fresh, but sometimes it's something that I've listened to a billion times and I'm trying to find new things in it. Like, the challenge for me now is, is not living entirely in the 90s, right. You know, and like, it's just, quote, unquote, keeping up with new music is a farce, you know, at any age, but certainly at my age. But like, I don't ever want to totally lapse, you know, into the comfortable music of my past, but this is where I spend the vast majority of my time now. Like, understandably, but still, like, I, I'm trying, I try and maintain a well rounded, you know, diet, but, you know, it's unavoidably, you know, I'm. I'm living in 1994 a goodly amount of the time.
- [38:02]
Interviewer
Yeah. So, Rob, you've got this great book, 60 songs that explain the 90s out now, 110 episodes out of 120 done. For the podcast. Where do you see yourself going in the, you know, 12 to 24 months?
- [38:14]
Rob Harvilla
Oh, my God. I. It's so. I. I gotta figure this out, right? I want to do another show. Absolutely. I am going to do another show. I'm not exactly sure what that is yet. You know, it's like it's become a joke, right, that, like, I keep extending the show just because I. There's other songs I want to talk about, you know, and there's still, I still have a lot of enthusiasm for this and, you know, the feedback I'm getting is really cool and really gratifying and to some extent there seems to be an audience, audience for this, but, like, I gotta find something new to do and I'm not sure what that is yet. You know, obviously we've talked about like the 80s or the aughts, you know, and I'm really curious about that and I'm curious how the show changes when it doesn't have the foundation again of me being a teenager and then being the music you love. You know, like, more than anything. Right. Like, how it changes things, you know, if I don't have as personal, like an adolescent, you know, coming of age sort of of connection to it, you know, if I do the 2000s, like, you know, that's, I'm a young, you know, I'm in my 20s or whatever. It's, but yeah, how does it change and how do my stories change and how does the mix between like, critical analysis and personal stories change? Like, I'm really curious about all that, but I, I, it makes me nervous to leave behind, you know, what is objectively, you know, the coolest thing, you know, the coolest feeling thing that I've ever done and the most feedback I've ever gotten. And like, they let me write a book, man. You know, like they've never done that before. And so it's, it's, there's a leaving the womb type quality to this, right. Where like, I don't want to do this forever and I don't want to wear out my welcome. You know, I don't want it to grow stale, all of that. But like, it's, it's just, I, I, it's hard to stop.
- [40:01]
Interviewer
Yeah.
- [40:02]
Rob Harvilla
You know, just because I still feel the enthusiasm, which is pretty shocking to me. You know, 110 episodes in, I would not have guess on episode one that I'd still be doing this, but it's a joy to still be doing this. But just finding the right place to stop and finding the next thing to do immediately, that's proving a little elusive. But I'll figure it out.
- [40:23]
Interviewer
Yeah, I've got this. I'm obsessed with the band Dillinger 4 and I've heard you mention them before. And I was like, wouldn't that be sweet if somebody did a song by Song Dillinger 4 podcast? Because I do a song by song podcast. Also, like a song exploder thing.
- [40:36]
Rob Harvilla
Yes, she did too.
- [40:37]
Interviewer
I love that I, I obsessed with somebody doing a song exploder about Dillinger 4. But I also thought about a band like Dillinger 4 who has a tiny discography over a very long career. And I'm like, man, wouldn't that be crazy if somebody did like a limited discography song by song series where it was like two records or less and you just like examine bands that have tiny discographies but have been around for a long time kind of thing. And I was like, oh man. So I'm just like, bray. I just like had these like little random brainstorms of podcasts. Like the other day I was at a Sabers game. And I was like, you know what would be a good podcast for somebody to interview every single organist who plays for an NHL?
- [41:16]
Rob Harvilla
Oh, that would be great.
- [41:17]
Interviewer
You know what I mean? So just keep, definitely keep some ideas flowing on the podcast because I, I love your work and I hope you keep doing shows forever. Rob, what a pleasure. I love your book, I love your podcast. It's such a thrill to connect. I'm hoping everybody out there listening will go check out the. The table of contents in 60 songs that explain the 90s, because I bet a lot of people out there listening are really going to connect with a lot of these songs. And giving your show and giving your book a chance, I think is. Would be a really wonderful experience for, for listeners out there. And Rob, where can people find you if they want to learn more or follow along with what you're doing?
- [42:10]
Rob Harvilla
Well, you better do it quick. But I am still on Twitter, you know, against my better, against my better judgment, I'm still on Twitter at plain old Harvilla, right? Har V I L L A I am on Instagram as well. That's Rob Harvilla, you know, and just the Ringer. You know, I've been with the Ringer since it launched in 2016. It's the longest I've ever had one job. You know, that's where you know, the 60 songs comes out of, you know, out of Spotify. But yeah, you can find me there. And thank you so much, man. This has been awesome. And this is really kind of you to say. And I'm. I'm jealous all the shows that you're getting to go to. We got to talk now real quick about Eureka, Missouri, though.
- [42:51]
Interviewer
Oh, dude, we got us. So we're gonna just. So if anybody out there doesn't want to hear about us, talk about our youth. And you can leave the interview now.
- [42:58]
Rob Harvilla
But you can leave now.
- [43:00]
Interviewer
Dude, this is going to be. This is going to blow your mind. I was reading your book last night, and it was like you're writing about Eureka, Missouri and Sacred Heart going to school. And I grew up in Fenton across the Merrimack river from Sacred Heart Parish. And I went to church at that parish until I was like 10 or 11. I got confirmed at that parish. I went to the Monday night religious education program there. And I just gotta know your. Your backstory with, with the suburbs of St. Louis, because that legitimately blew my mind.
- [43:35]
Rob Harvilla
Pretty wild, dude. I was born in Cleveland, but my parents moved to Eureka. I was like three or four, you know, so this would have been 1981, 1982, you know, and like, I don't have. My firm memories start like 84, 85. Right, right. You know, but I went to Sacred Hearts Elementary School, you know, from first through fifth grade. I, I left. We. We moved back to Cleveland, the Cleveland area, middle of fifth grade. But man, I. It's like growing. Like what I remember are like collecting baseball cards, watching mtv, you know, playing Fenton, kicked our asses in soccer all time. It's amazing. I just. But I remember Fenton so vividly. And I don't remember the highway that you take to get to St. Louis proper. Like, we'd only go there for like Cardinals games or like blues games or stuff. Right. But there's like a water park.
- [44:33]
Interviewer
Wet Willys.
- [44:35]
Rob Harvilla
That's correct. Wet Willys, you know, right on the highway. And I don't know if I ever actually went to Wet Willies, but I drove past it so many times. But like I. It's in my memory, you know, and this is a very naive sort of rose colored. It's like a John Cougar Mellencamp song to me. Oh, yeah, right. Yeah. Like just, just, you know, the, the, the. The burbs, you know, the, the, the. The suburbs of St. Louis and just listening to Jack Buck on the radio, you know, call Cardinals games, you know, and like all the tops, you know, and I've talked about this at some point on the show, like just the tops, baseball cards, Donrus fleer from like 1985-89, you know, that was the sweet spot of collecting baseball cards. But like that, that's, that's like my Wonder years esque, like rosy, you know, childhood memories.
- [45:24]
Interviewer
Yeah.
- [45:24]
Rob Harvilla
Are all from Eureka. And it's so wild to talk to somebody, you know, who was there also. How old are you?
- [45:30]
Interviewer
Okay. I'm 40. So I was born. Yeah. I was born in High Ridge, Missouri and which is another suburb of St. Louis. But then my parents moved to Fenton in 2000 or in, in 1980, 83 when they bought a brand. It was a brand new development. It was the sticks out there. When you were living in Valley park in Eureka, it was the sticks.
- [45:54]
Rob Harvilla
It was.
- [45:55]
Interviewer
Yeah, it was unincorporated St. Louis county was where my parents new house was. But yeah, 44 is the highway that you're talking about. I.44 that runs from. It runs across the state of Missouri, but it ends in St. Louis and then it goes out past Six Flags, out through Fenton and then down to Springfield, Missouri.
- [46:13]
Rob Harvilla
Yes.
- [46:13]
Interviewer
And, but yeah, Wet Willys is at the intersection section of 141 and 44 in a old area called Peerless Park.
- [46:22]
Rob Harvilla
Peerless park sounds.
- [46:23]
Interviewer
That's what, that's what that little area where the McDonald's and the burger King and the Wet Willies was. It was just this tiny little zone called Perilous Park. But if you went there now, you would 100 not recognize it. The bluff that Wet Willys was up on top of is still there, But Wet Willys was torn down a long time ago ago.
- [46:43]
Rob Harvilla
Well, that's too bad, but probably for the best.
- [46:46]
Interviewer
Yeah, it was. Yeah. But I, I. It's so funny when you, when it said Sacred Heart in Eureka, Missouri, because that is my entire life as well, growing up. And the fact that you came from there and I came from there, and now here I am reading your book, and then it says that it just completely, like, just shattered my reality last night.
- [47:08]
Rob Harvilla
Yeah, man, that's. That's lovely. I do not run into many people with any other than Six Flags. Right. The fact that Six Flags was there, I think distinguishes Eureka for people, but like, people, you know, not, as you say, not a. Not a big. Not a booming place necessarily. But it's where I grew up and I loved it.
- [47:29]
Interviewer
And another little tidbit about that area. There's a park right at the corner of 44 and 141, also right by Sacred Heart, called Booter park. And in 1998, Warped Tour, for some reason, was held in Valley Park, Eureka, Fenton, at that park right at the corner by your old parish. And so I saw rancid. No effects. Friends of Rom mxpx. You know, no use for a name. All in that park right next to Sacred Heart parish that you went to elementary school in.
- [48:05]
Rob Harvilla
That is phenomenal. I am having. Yeah. That's tripping me out to even picture, like, no effects.
- [48:11]
Interviewer
Yep.
- [48:12]
Rob Harvilla
Being on the same plane of existence as my childhood Catholic elementary school, that's a lot for me to process, quite frankly. But I'm sorry I missed that.
- [48:22]
Interviewer
If you go on. Yeah. Go to Maps. Go to Google Maps or something and just type in Booter park in Valley park or Fenton or Eureka. I'm not sure exactly.
- [48:31]
Rob Harvilla
I'm doing that right now.
- [48:32]
Interviewer
B U D E R. B U D E R are.
- [48:35]
Rob Harvilla
Oh, see, I was doing the double O. So that's. Yeah, that's. That makes lessons.
- [48:39]
Interviewer
Yeah.
- [48:40]
Rob Harvilla
Park, Missouri. Here we go.
- [48:42]
Interviewer
Yep, Yep.
- [48:43]
Rob Harvilla
Yeah, man.
- [48:43]
Interviewer
That park. Okay, so if you look, if you zoom out a little bit and you go right across the river to where it Says Valley Park. And you go up, there should be a cross right north where it says Valley Park. That is where the Sacred Heart parishes. So it's literally right across the. The Merrimack river is where Warp Tour was held from the church that you went to school at when you were a kid. Kid.
- [49:06]
Rob Harvilla
That is wild as heck. Oh, there's a sushi place in Eureka. Now. I don't know if I would necessarily.
- [49:14]
Interviewer
I. I assure you that there is gentrification going on.
- [49:18]
Rob Harvilla
Oh, I'm sure. Right? Yeah, that's. That's very funny. But, yeah, it's Schnooks. Just the name Schnooks, I know, is a trigger for me. Like, the grocery store, man. What a weird name for a grocery store. But it's like. Yeah. And this is right where Times beach is. Right. Like, which is the famous sort of, you know, abandoned.
- [49:37]
Interviewer
Yeah.
- [49:38]
Rob Harvilla
Super funds, you know, ecological disaster. Like, there was a lot going on.
- [49:42]
Interviewer
Oh, dude. And down there in. In Times beach, it just basically turned into. It was reclaimed totally by nature. So you drive past there, and it was, like, still abandoned, but there's just deer everywhere. And it just turned into, like, a. A nature zone where everybody got. Where all the animals just kind of took over.
- [50:00]
Rob Harvilla
So good luck to those deer.
- [50:02]
Interviewer
I know.
- [50:03]
Rob Harvilla
I know the water.
- [50:05]
Interviewer
Well. I'm glad we got to chat about. About Fenton and Eureka.
- [50:09]
Rob Harvilla
Yeah, man. That's wild.
- [50:11]
Interviewer
What a trippy experience. Well, Rob Harvilla, thank you so much for doing this with me. What a pleasure. Congrats on the book. Congrats on the triumph of the podcast. It's such a thrill, man.
- [50:23]
Rob Harvilla
Thanks so much me, for having. Having me. Dude, this has been awesome. I really appreciate it.
- [50:49]
Interviewer
Ram. It.
- [51:45]
Rob Harvilla
Sam.