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- [00:00]
A
Hey, friends, it's Karamo, talk show host, life coach, and your next best friend. You just don't know it yet. I'm hosting a new podcast called Started on Brotherhoods. We're going around the world to explore male friendships and all the wins, challenges and bonds that are made in WhatsApp group chats. And that's exactly where you can listen to it, right in the app. It's streaming on the official WhatsApp channel. Just open the app and go to the updates tab to start listening. While you're at it, message your best friend and make sure they listen too. I'll see you there.
- [00:30]
B
Hello, everybody. This is Marshall Po. I'm the founder and editor of the New Books Network. And if you're listening to this, you know that the NBN is the largest academic podcast network in the world. We reach a worldwide audience of 2 million people. You may have a podcast or you may be thinking about starting a podcast. As you probably know, there are challenges basically of two kinds. One is technical. There are things you have to know in order to get your podcast produced and distributed. And the second is, and this is the biggest problem, you need to get an audience. Building an audience in podcasting is the hardest thing to do today. With this in mind, we at the NBM have started a service called NBN Productions. What we do is help you create a podcast, produce your podcast, distribute your podcast, and we host your podcast. Most importantly, what we do is we distribute your podcast to the NBN audience. We've done this many times with many academic podcasts, and we would like to help you. If you would be interested in talking to us about how we can help you with your podcast, please contact us. Just go to the front page of the New Books Network and you will see a link to NBN Productions. Click that, fill out the form, and we can talk. Welcome to the New Books Network.
- [01:37]
C
Hello, everyone, and welcome to nbn. I am your host, Holly Gattery, and I am excited to be joined today by the wonderful east coast of Canada. For those listening Other Places in the World, author Robert De La chevroletaire, who is here to talk about. I mean, I can't describe it as either. A truly enchanting, magical book, Tall is Her Body we, which was just released with, I believe, is Kensington Press. Am I right, Robert?
- [02:07]
D
Yes, that's correct.
- [02:09]
C
Okay. I just was like, I think I remember reading that, but I should have checked that. It's so good to have you here to talk about this book, which I devoured in about two nights, which is Amazing for me, considering I read in bed and I'm usually very tired, but I stayed up late into the night reading it, and like I said, I was just enchanted. This is a sweeping, multicultural family saga blending consciousness and the supernatural as one man's quest for wholeness amid the 1990s collapse of the West Indies banana industry reveals the enduring impacts of colonialism, Catholicism, and immigration. So, Robert, I first met you through your short stories, and I was in love with those. And then I found out you had a novel coming out, and I had to read that. For those of you who aren't familiar with Robert's work, Robert is an Afro Caribbean immigrant to Canada who teaches French and English language arts. He's a member of the Writers Federation of Nova Scotia, and his poetry has appeared in ARC poetry magazines. And for those of you who do not know of arc, it is a wonderful, prestigious literary magazine who, you know, it's pretty hard to get into. I know because I've been uniformly rejected. So congratulations, Robert. Thank you. Thank you. Well, I have to ask you, where did this book start for you? Because it is a sweeping family saga. And, I mean, I can sometimes kind of pull out of a novel and infer where it may have began with the author, but I didn't know so much of the history that informs this novel, so I couldn't possibly guess.
- [03:46]
D
Well, first of all, I want to say thank you for the invitation and thank you for having me on this program. I appreciate that very much. So where did this book come from? This book, the Journey is a Long Journey. It started when I was studying in France in 1999. I was in a class, and the professor was from Haiti, and she was so adamant that we all had a story inside of us, and she wanted us to just tell our story. And she said, you know, we don't have to bring out our trauma. It doesn't have to be about that kind of stuff. Right. It could be the. Every day, just say what you need to say and share it. And I. I was. I was taken by that. And, you know, I was always creative, so I just. I was like, okay, yeah, I could do that. But I didn't really consider it until I had gone to a book signing by this author, Calix Biala. And when she was signing my book, she looked at me and she wrote something about the moles on my face. And she's something like the moles and the land and just made that connection. And I remember being thinking, okay, did she just make that up? Or, you know, was that Prepared. But it had me thinking about that, just that little connection. And then I went home or to my. To my dorm, and I just started writing about myself and just my childhood, just the very initial bits of myself living in the Caribbean. And that's how it all started. And over the years, I would come back to it, and I just realized, you know what? Okay, I love my childhood. It's great. But this is pretty boring. You know, there's. I want to write a book. It's got to be exciting. So I decided to kill off some characters and just see where it would go. And I was amazed at just what came after. But in the whole time, though, like, life. Life happened, right? I had children, I grew up. Right. I became a man. Teaching. And the writing itself was something I did on the side. I didn't quite have time, but I just always kept at it. And then eventually, when Covid hit, I had more time to dedicate to it. And once I saw the ending and I realized what the ending was going to be, I said, wow, I can actually write the rest, right? I can fill in the blanks. And that's what I did. So it's a long journey, but it has been very rewarding. I tell people that this book, if nothing else ever comes out of my brain, right? Like the one book that we all have in us, for me, it is this one. Everything else is extra.
- [07:29]
C
Effy, there is so much to unpack in what you just said. First of all, I was relieved to hear that this was not based on your life, because I was going to start crying if it was. I need to hug you, Robert. If this is based on your life, I love that you could see your way through the story once you knew what the end was, because that is very much my experience writing novels, is that I have no idea where I'm going unless I know, like, unless I have an end, even if the changes slightly, I need to write towards something. So I loved. I love knowing that, too. So I want to ask you about the intro. Not, like the exact opening, but the. This. The novel starts, like, in a pretty intense flight. I read it and I was. It was quite graphic and violent and necessarily so, necessarily so. And I was wondering if you could. I feel comfortable talking about it because it's not giving anything away because it's at the front of the book. It's the start of the book, so I'm okay talking about it. Something quite dramatic and life changing happens in the first few pages of the book. And I was wondering if you could let our listeners know about that and about the process of writing that and writing violence and specifically writing intense violence through the eyes of a child.
- [08:51]
D
Yeah, that's a great question. The process for me was just writing it. Honestly. I didn't think of anyone else reading it. I didn't think of how it might be perceived. I just wanted to put it on paper. And so initially it was supposed to be about myself until the violence happened and the scene where the two men disembark and come to my, to the yard, you know that I remember when my father came with his friend, right, and they were happy and jolly and he was going to get married. He came to get me to take his wedding, right? And I remember that happening. And the one lie he told me was that we were going by air and instead it was on the ferry and then on the boat, which was scary as heck. And. But you know that part of the. When the violence occurs. So we have in the introduction, basically Fidel, the protagonist, who witnesses his mother and uncle murdered by his, his father. And the father, he doesn't know who he is, right. For me, it was like I said, basically just putting everything on paper, right. I had not considered the eyes of anyone else. And if I can even say, you know, like further in the book, at one point, which I. My editor asked me to remove it, there was a part in there that was also graphic, but which entailed, you know, like, it was horrible, but for me it was just these are things that happen not necessarily to me or to my family, but in the Caribbean and I think everywhere. But in my experience, what I know, I know that these things happened, right? For example, I know that one of my aunts, she was attacked by her then boyfriend with a machete, right? And she survived, but she's got the scars to prove it. So it's not far fetched from a reality. And you know, I don't. And the. More this book went towards publication, the. The idea of, okay, is it too much or is it not? Yes, that entered my mind. But there's something called life and, and, and experiences and, and reality. And I, I don't think that, you know, necessarily I had to shy from it. Yes, we can temper things and tone it down a bit. You know, it might be overkill in some sections, but some of these things, especially in the opening when it became clear that, okay, this, I want this thing published, I want this to be read, I thought this is that initial incident that has to happen and has to happen early. And from there you know, the reader may decide. May decide, okay, I can't do this, right, or they're hooked. But I know for me, it had to happen. And like I said, I wrote this for me initially, so I had to put it down on paper.
- [12:51]
C
Well, I'll say, you know, I'm a little bit of a. I'm a squeamish. I'm a squeamish. I'm naturally squeamish. But I didn't. I wasn't squeamish around this book. I mean, I think reading this book at any point in history, but especially now when we see the horror going on in the world, the violence perpetrated against everybody, but specifically children. Look at Saddam, look at Gaza. I. I don't feel like it was overkill. I feel like it was accurate. I feel like it was, like you said, life. And I don't think that you should have to water down life, make it easier on people to. I don't. I don't think we should spare each other suffering necessarily. I don't think we should turn away from the suffering of others. That's probably the better way to say it. So I was not bothered by it at all. It was intense, right? Like, it's an intense way to start a book. But that's me saying it's intense is not a criticism of it. It's just like, wow, I'm going. And because I'd read others, Other work by you, I'd read your short stories, I, I knew I was in good hands. So I didn't. I didn't think I was going to be waterboarded with violent and bids for 300 pages.
- [14:00]
D
And I think that that's important to say, too. I mean, yes, there are a couple of violent scenes, but for the most part, it's. It's pretty tender. It's, It's. It's not about the violence necessarily. The. The book itself encompasses much more than those violent scenes, of course, doesn't.
- [14:21]
C
Tenderness is such a underpinning of this book. Fidel is the sweetest little boy who grows into a pretty sweet young man, which is. I don't want to give anything away. I was about to say something which is. For me to say, that is pretty bold, considering some of the things that he does. But I think he held. I think he held back more than I would have. I'll just say that he. He lasted longer being the. The brunt of other people's pain and misery than I think I would have. So I would love for you to talk A little bit about what I talked about in the intro, which is the supernatural elements of this book. So the novel starts and I will need you, I'm sure, to correct my pronunciation of this. When is it the Gadat Zafi Gadat Zafa, Yes. Gadat Zafay comes to warn Fidel's mother that she will die. So this is the opening. We have an omen, an ominous beginning. And there's a lot of supernatural elements in this book. And I mean, I, I love speculative fiction, I love magic realism. And I think it's because in, in my world, I, for, for a grown woman to say this, I understand, sounds kind of wonky, but I mean, I need to believe in these things as if they're real. Because if I can't believe in something that I can't see and can't touch and can't hear or sense, then I'm going to give up because the world's a really terrible place then. So. I really love that part of the book. I love that, that there was that thread, those beautiful glittering gold threads of the supernatural throughout the book. And I was wondering if you could tell our listeners who haven't read the book a little bit about the, the tradition that you are bringing into the book. I believe it's called. Is it obey? I'm probably pronouncing that wrong too. Obaha. It's O, B, E, A, H. Yes.
- [16:10]
D
Obeya, obia.
- [16:12]
C
Okay, thank you. I'm really second guessing my pronunciation of. If you see these words, listeners, they're phonetically exactly what they look like. It is. Ro would love for you to tell our listeners about these traditions and about incorporating the supernatural. I'll say the supernatural, for a lack of a better word into this book.
- [16:32]
D
Yes. So the garet Zafe, mainly in Guadeloupe. So. And I, where I grew up, I could tell you that there were at least three houses that we considered a get at. Zafe lived in that place. Right. And basically all they were were like just fortune tellers. Okay. You would go and they would read your fortune or they would, but. But it was never seen as it was never questionable. It was, okay, that is who that person is and that is what they do and that is who they are, essentially. So for that part, that was just an everyday experience. Obeah, on the other hand. So that's mainly, let's say in Jamaica and Dominica, not widely. And I think that's why I chose obeah, because I wanted not to focus so much on the African spirituality and what it brought to the novel. But to put it against organized religion, right? Place it right next to Christianity. And when I talk about obey, men and women, a good obeya or a bad obeya, and you know, them not necessarily being bad as a practice, but if the person himself or herself is bad, then of course they are going to be a bad obey is the same as in. In organized religion, right? If you have a wonderful preacher, a wonderful priest, wonderful pastor, right? So first and foremost, they're a person, all right? So good or bad. Now you add their, their. Their title, then are there a good priest? Are they a good pastor? Or, you know, so that, for me was important in bringing the spiritual, African spirituality into it. I also felt that it had to be something that I could not necessarily put my finger on and define because it wasn't important to say, okay, this is exactly what obeah is. The same as when we look at voodoo, for example, especially in American film and cinema, right? We have an idea of what these things are, but a lot, so much of it is bastardized by Western media, where in actuality it's not. It's more about community. It's more about healing practice. So I wanted to show that and also for a good while in my personal life, because I grew up in the church and it's a struggle sometimes to go to church on Sunday morning and then during the week, you know, is like we're living in sin every other day, you know, and you just see it's like this dichotomy of life where on one hand we're being told to be a certain way, do a certain thing, act a certain manner, but then there's another reality. So for me, Christianity has been such a question mark, and it's been one of those things that I have struggled with, and I think putting it in the book helped to kind of deal or assess that struggle. So having the African spiritualities in their. It was on one hand very personal, but on the other, it did help in terms of balancing what I was trying to convey to a general public.
- [21:28]
E
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- [21:56]
F
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- [22:29]
C
Your answers are just so unfailingly beautiful. Thank you so much for that. I, as you're talking, I was thinking about reading the book and how I felt like so, so many multitudes were filtered like a prism through Fidel. So you're talking about, you know, kind of Western. I guess it's not Western Europe, too, but Christian religions. And then we have Obia Obeah. And then we have, you know, Dominica and Guadalupe and Jamaica. And there's like, there's like, multiculturalism, multifaceted faith narratives. There's, there's the narrative of this boy who is really remarkably aware of sexism around him, too, about the way women are treated and wants to be better than the man who killed his mother, his father, who he doesn't know. You already let this out of the bag, so I can say, but he doesn't know it's his father. In a way, you know, he, he wants to do better, but is struggling with that. And he was a really fascinating person because I didn't, like I said, I didn't know about so much of these intricacies and, and, and all the nuance of, of the people and the experiences of living in these places. I mean, the first thing I did when I finished was like, pull out my old school atlas and like, okay, let's, let's trace what happened here. And I was really fascinated in that and how, how I was fascinated in my own, you know, myopic life of. I'm aware of what I'm aware of. And everybody. This is why you read books, by the way, because they show you what you. You're not aware of. Every time I learn something new in a book, I don't think, oh, I'm embarrassed. I didn't know that. I think, oh, thank goodness I learned that, right? Thank goodness I'm not as ignorant as I was a day ago. But I was wondering if you could talk about that, if you could talk about creating Fidel is what I've called a prism for so many important, because he is so many important themes and topics and issues, but not having, like, he didn't feel, I mean, he felt like he was way down. I always pictured Fidel in my head, like on one of those old medieval racks where you're just being like stretched in 20 different directions and torture because so much was placed on such a small child and then an adult. But he didn't. When I say he doesn't feel weighed down by them, what I mean is the narrative is very light. Fidel is a very agile character and it didn't feel like boggy or chewy. The experience of getting to know this person, he felt like a real complicated person. And I'd love for you to talk about his character and managing all this through him.
- [25:16]
D
Yeah, well, thanks for that. Fidel was actually not difficult to write at all. I look at Fidel and I look at, for example, my upbringing and I mean, I was raised by a single mother. And when I think of all the lessons that I learned, all the teachings, it was not solely my mother. I mean, yes, there were men around, there was my uncle and there were other people, but for the most part it was just always women, like women always held down the fort. And I cannot say it enough just how important it is, how important women are in our society. And that's why I dedicated this book to all the women in my life. I'm getting emotional here for a second. It was just, it was not hard to write him at all because it wasn't about Fidel per se. It was these, these extraordinary women who lifted him up. It didn't matter where he went, there was a woman that, that, that helped him. And not to take away anything from this, this, this young man, but it's the idea that if we as people, we recognize the importance of the role that women play in our lives, I think our lives would be so much better, like society would be so much better. I tell people all the time that I'm a leftist, I'm so left, like I'm left, left, left. But I just think when it comes to feminism, and I understand that we cannot be in a society and not appreciate women and appreciate what they do and what they bring. And having a daughter, I couldn't imagine not being able to understand some of the difficulties that she faces. Um, being a teacher, I cannot tell you how much I, I value some of these, you know, these 12 to 15 year old girls who sometimes are just quiet and they don't speak. And I just want to just pull the, the, all the jewels from, from their mouths. Right. Just, just talk to me. Right. It's just, it's just so important that we give them a voice. And, and I feel that Fidel, he, his actions did that. It wasn't just him, it was also them. I'm not sure if I answered your question the way I should have answered it, but it's the idea that it wasn't only him. He was lifted by these women.
- [28:41]
C
No, I love that. And obviously I agree with you. Not every woman is a feminist, but I agree with you. I love that answer. And I would, I, I want to ask you to read from the book, but because we've been talking about women and feminism, I'd love for you to talk about the love interests in Fidel's older life. Now. One of them is white and one of them is Lucy. And I say that because I did not like. Is it Janine? I did not like it. And I, and I say that with. I loved the character. I did not like her. You did a great job with the character. Maybe we're supposed to like her. I don't know. I found her insufferable. But I loved Lucy. And I would love for you to talk about this dichotomy because he meets Janine when he goes to Nova Scotia to school, and Lucy is kind of his childhood amor back home. But I use that very loosely because I'm not. I, I don't want to speak out of my perspective, but the way relationships seem to work in Fidel's culture is not the way that I was brought up in a Muslim culture of relationships working. The, the very like ownership based model is not one that applies to Fidel and I. So I would love for you to talk about these two very different young women. And Fidel has like this interesting pull between them both. You know, he's attracted to Lucy's. It seems like she's white, but like the exotic ness of her whiteness to him. But then. Sorry, Jeanine. And then, but then there's Lucy at home, who very much feels like home to him.
- [30:29]
D
Yeah. I think first of all, Fidel is a man. Right. Um, and like any man who goes away, I mean, I, I did that, I went away to school. I, I came here and you, you meet people and he's black. In Nova Scotia, the people that he would meet the most or have more interaction with, obviously, is, Is white folks. And Jeanine happened to be someone that he got along with. He saw her. He said it was beautiful. It was important for me to mention to have Janine there, because sometimes you never know what you're missing, right? What's the saying? You don't know what you're missing. To the well runs dry. You don't miss your water. To the well runs dry. And yes, for sure, Lucy was there his whole life, pretty much. But it's that constant, right? It's that person that you take for granted that you don't really appreciate. And, you know, Jeanine was part of him finding himself. So had he not met her, had he not interacted with her, had he not had those complicated. That. Well, a complicated situation with Janine, I. I don't think he would have been able to appreciate Lucy and what she brought to him. So, I mean, I can say that Janine was a foil to Lucy in a sense, but most definitely Lucy and what she brings to Fidel is just. It's that real kind of. It is home, like you said, right? It is home. It is. Doesn't matter where you go, home is always there. And that's what she was to him.
- [32:51]
C
And Musi, to her credit, doesn't sit around twiddling her thumbs.
- [32:55]
D
Absolutely not. Exactly. Exactly. Right. So. And that's the thing, right? She also went away. She also did her thing, but it was quite different than what Janine could ever bring to him.
- [33:11]
C
Before I get to the reading, I really have to ask about the conversation around the table when the professor invites Jeanine and Fidel and a few of their classmates over for dinner. And. And we're not even talking about the fact yet, readers, there are so many dimensions to this book, so many layers that, like, Fidel sees dead people, okay, like, constantly. So there's this conversation that Fidel's having with. Not conversation, these experiences he's having, seeing people who aren't while they're there, but other people can't see them. And that happened at this. In this scene. But that's not what I want to talk about. I do just want to mention it so you understand that there is something else going on in this book too, and another beautiful kind of creamy layer of sweetness to it. I mean, I considered it sweet. I loved it. But this, this conversation they have at the professor's house, that conversation, I was riveted. I was riveted to say what you were talking about different kinds of blackness. And it is a conversation. I think this is why I thought that Janine was insufferable. Because as someone who is not black, I would have listened, and I would not have said anything. You know, I mean. And she's like, right in there. I was like, girl, sit down. Stop talking. You have no place in this conversation. I'd love for you to talk about creating that conversation because you're getting, like, you're imparting a lot of very juicy and different opinions, divergent opinions, and leaving the reader, I felt, to basically make up their own mind, which was a really, I would think, a really solid approach in a conversation like this, right?
- [34:53]
D
That conversation about the. The different kinds of blackness, I mean, that is a conversation that black folk have all the time, right? And I know myself coming from because I came to Canada from Bermuda, right? And in Bermuda, there is. I think I say 40% white, and then there's 60% black. So, you know, I was used to being around white folks, but until I came to Canada, I didn't realize how they different. It would. It would. It would be. I had read about it, I had seen in movies and films, but I never realized. Just, oh, my gosh, I feel like all eyes are on me right now, right? Like, just. I was seeing, you know, the whole idea of, oh, yeah, I'm in a big city, a big place, no one can see me. Nope, that's a lie. I felt othered. And when, you know, talking about Bermuda or Bermudian kids and, sorry, students, African students, Caribbean students, I saw that here. And mind you, I went to Mount Allison in New Brunswick. So when my friends and I came down, you know, on weekends, and even then, it was very visible, right? So you had these three factions of black folks that just didn't get along. And you wonder, like, why the heck are you guys, and what is the problem, right? I hope that 25 years later, things have changed. But, you know, that was something that is very, very real in the black community. And it's not just about who we are as black people. But, you know, there's the idea of just. Just colorism, right? Based on your skin tone, there's the. The. The speech. How you speak is, you know, how you dress, you know, who your friends are, right? All those things characterize you as a certain. A particular black. And. And I'm speaking for myself, okay? I'm sure some other black folks might disagree with that, but to me, it was. Well, for me, it was very important to mention that because it was a critical part of me understanding and coming to terms with my identity as a black person in Canada.
- [37:39]
C
Yeah, thank you so much for that. Just, you know, Fidel Arriving in Nova Scotia reminded me of when my son came home first. First day at his new high school. We live in rural Ontario. And he walked into the home and goes, oh, mom, awful lot of honkies here. I was like, that's. That's a fair assessment. Yes, there are an awful lot of honkies around here.
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D
Poor guy.
- [38:07]
C
Yeah, he was. He was kind of shocked and I don't know why he would have been. He knows where we live, but I think he was expecting from public school to high school to get a little more diversity, and it fit him, but there we go. So right now I'm going to ask you to read from this beautiful book to give our listeners a little taste of your prose.
- [38:28]
D
All right, I will do so. So this passage is in the second chapter, and it's shortly before Fidel goes to Dominica and he is with his paternal grandmother and his aunt Mary Marie Jose. I awoke the following morning to the two women bustling in the adjacent kitchen, sunlight piercing through the open jalousy. I could hear the neighbors talking outside to the bread truck delivery man. Coffee and the fresh smell of baguettes filled the house. When I got to the kitchen, I was greeted with a warm smile from Marie. Joseph smiled too, but hers was faint and more reserved than her daughter's. Petite Bonhomme said Tlume with a nod and walked out to the veranda with her coffee. I sat at the table with Mary Jose, my eyes wide open to the warm baguette natty on the table. It was softer than a regular baguette and a three part braid. My mother seldom bought those, as they never lasted. The morning I was in the back seat of the Peugeot when I realized I had not seen much of Guadeloupe. I had a limited knowledge of my commune of St. Louis, the city center of Puentapitre and a few towns along the way for the many beaches in Guadeloupe. I had only been to the Grantas in Dehe. Places like Pointe Noir, Pointe des Chateau, the Soufriere, Saint Mamel were only places I had heard of. My mother did not drive or own a car, and as such my travels were limited. We started by visiting the Soufriere volcano and worked our way back. Telume was very knowledgeable and education was important to her. She shared everything, no matter how small the detail. I still remember when she told me that the Soufriere was the tallest peak in the Lesser Antilles. Marie Jose did not say a whole lot. When we would stop and walk, she would put her arm around me or hold my hand. But for the most part it was my grandmother who did the talking. She showed me the Mamel in the distance, the two mountain peaks which resemble a woman's breast, hence their name. I had only seen them on television or heard about them on the radio, especially during Tour de la Guadeloupe cycling races, when cyclists had to go through those mountains. As we headed back, we stopped in the time of Petit Canal at the Marche des Esclaves, a monument to commemorate the abolition of slavery. Before I left for Dominica, Tillumi felt I needed to know how important our ancestors were and that we not only remember them, but give them life. She said it was never too early to learn history. Nai Jose did not agree and suggested the opposite, that I was too young and not ready. Who's going to teach him these blood sucking bekeys? You know how they teach history? Said Taelo Mei. Then, looking at me, she said, if you remember anything I've taught you today, remember this. The spirit never dies. Our ancestors live inside us, so we can never forget them. If we forget them, we forget us. Don't ever forget who you are. Don't ever forget them. It felt as if she was telling me to never forget my mother. I could never. I also knew that in the short time I had known her and N' a Jose, I could never forget them. They were all the women in my life, my many mothers, Florida, Madame Salis, Marie Jose, Tillume, the ones who came before them, the ones who would come after. They were all so beautiful, and if their spirits lived forever, I would want to live among them. I squeezed Telume's hand and she, feeling this, looked down at me and smiled. Hence began my lesson on Guadeloupe. The Caribs, the Arawaks, Columbus, the migration of indentured servants from India, and the importation of slaves from Africa. I sat here one day and closed my eyes, said Tilume, and I swear I could feel the spirits of my ancestors. All of them. There was a certain gravitas in her voice, as if she were pulling words and emotion from the depth of her core. So I do what some of them couldn't. I speak for them. All of them, she said. Marie Jose sat quietly on a bench, crossing her legs and holding on to her knee, her blouse and neck scarf blue in the wind. She looked on, stoic, sunglasses over her eyes, purse over her shoulder and on her side, her posture awash with grace.
- [43:49]
C
Thank you so much. That was beautiful. And I just love how much love fidel has for these women in his life. It was so apparent there, as is your gorgeous writing. So thank you so much. Yeah, no, it was my pleasure. I want to talk about the title because I mentioned that the title is Tall is Her Body, but the title was not totally apparent to me what that meant until I read what that meant in your book. And for our listeners, I was wondering if you could tell them where the title comes from and what it refers to.
- [44:21]
D
Yes. So Tall is Her Body is a translation of the indigenous, indigenous name of Dominica. So Dominica's indigenous name by the Kalinago is Waitu Kabuli, and it translates as Tall is her body. And to me, you know, I love Dominica. And I just. I wanted to put this. Sorry, I wanted to show gratitude to Fusama, such a wonderful and beautiful country. Um, and it is where I was born. So for me, it's just one of those. It's an ode to my. To my birthplace.
- [45:14]
C
It's really, really beautiful and poetic, and that's probably why I was so drawn to it immediately. It's like, I don't know what this means yet, but I love it. It's gorgeous. I don't have to know what everything means. You can also infer what it means. Like, I think that poetry makes such intrinsic sense. So even if logically you can't grasp something, I think that in. In those little sparkling bits of your heart and soul, you can get it. And I definitely got that from. From this title. My next question for you. I have two more left. Is not counting, this one is about the banana trade. So I had no idea there had been a fall of the banana trade. I knew nothing about anything when it comes to industry. That's kind of my. My position across the board, granted. But I found it fascinating and I found it tragic. And I would love for you to talk a little bit about the research you did to bring that history to life. But because this is happening to Fidel and to two people, it's not like I felt like I was sitting there, like, through economics lesson or anything like that. It was just really beautifully woven into the story because why wouldn't it be? Economy and industry, it's the fabric of our lives. What's. It's what put, you know, puts food on our tables and roofs over our heads. So of course it would be there. And I just really enjoyed to hear some of the research you did to bring that to this book.
- [46:38]
D
So in Dominica, my. My father, he was a farmer and he owned property, and he he had a few banana fields. And I remember growing up going there to Dominica from Guadeloupe some summers to spend time with him. And I was just always so taken by the banana. And it always looked just so majestic, just so, so, so beautiful. And sometimes it's just green banana, sometimes they have the blue bags over them, you know, to deter bugs from getting to the fruits. And if you're ever just driving through and you're going through the mountainsides and all you see is just like, just, it's just such an incredible sight. And to think that all of that just vanished. Right. And so initially my, what I knew about banana was from growing up, but also I did ask my father a lot of information, but some I had to, I had to research, especially with regards to the, the Lome Convention, which allowed a certain quota of bananas from the Leeward Islands. So that is like Dominica all the way down the chain. So they were allowed a certain quota to be sold in the European markets. Unfortunately, being what the world is to me, it felt, in my research, research anyway, it felt as if as more European communities joined the European Economic Community, they no longer wanted or felt threatened by this, this quota. And it was ratified over and over and over until it was just dismantled, which meant that banana and Dominica eventually just failed. So people can have banana now, but there is no market per se in Europe to sell it. The competition is much too big. You know, we have the South American markets, you have the Doles, the Del Montes, they just took over. So right now banana and Dominica is dead.
- [49:36]
C
I found that just reading about that to be one of the saddest parts of the book. And I know that sounds strange, but so many sad things happen in the book. I mean, so many joyful things happen in the book too. So it's a very good life balance there. But I, I found it to be really upsetting and, and you know, I did, I did some research after, just by myself to fill in my very massive knowledge gaps. And yeah, it was, it was a lot for me to learn. And it was upsetting.
- [50:09]
D
Yeah, it is upsetting. It is. You know, you look at just how these, these countries, and sometimes it's just survival and you try your best to help your economic condition and then it just takes a stroke of a pen to undo all of it, right? And sometimes you have no control over it and you have to start over. And if you think right now, for example, let's just say for whatever reason, you know, banana is back on and people have. And they're planting. Where are they selling it? Right. To what market? And that's the part that's really disgusting because I remember thinking of, and I was young, I remember thinking, oh my gosh, yeah, Dominica is getting better. You know, they're economically, they are going to pull themselves out and then when these kind of things happen, it hurts you. Because I think of my own father now. He no longer isn't Dominica. Right. He had to leave, right. He had to go somewhere else and work and do what, like masonry? It's just, it's frustrating that people, as much as they try to be to help themselves and have some autonomy, they can't because of politics, that they have no control over.
- [51:38]
C
One of the meditations I had in this book and that I thought about and talked about out loud to my teenagers and my partner, to the extent that my 7 year old was walking around the house going, don't worry mom, I'm going to go work in banana. Because I'd been talking, he had no idea what I was saying or talking about, but he could tell I was concerned about something to do with bananas. And the phrasing, work in banana actually like attached to his very, bless his heart, like, go for my little blonde grant. Have fun. But you're gonna burn, buddy. You can't be outside five minutes without going completely bright red. Thank his father's genetics for that. But I, I, what I was really thinking about was the, the colonialism that you explore in this book and how there are these great forces that push millions of people around that they have no control over. And you know, thinking about how people fight back about them, how they, how resilient they are, but also even calling them resilient when they shouldn't have to be resilient feels like a cop out. Nobody should have to be that resilient ever. And there I. This book just gave me so much delicious and disturbing food for thought. Which leads me to a question about your other book which came out recently, We Were Kings. And I was wondering if you could just tell our listeners a little bit about that book too, because there are some similar themes and I would love for them just to put that on their radar too and hopefully add it to their TBR lists.
- [53:11]
D
Yes, thanks for that. We Were Not Kings is also set in the Caribbean, but it's set between Guadeloupe and Strasbourg, France. And it's a coming of age story. And we have the protagonist, Solomon, who graduates high school and then he moves to Strasbourg to Ford University while There, you know, he's studying. He's trying to have his own life. He does get married and whatnot, has a child, but he is consistently pulled back to the island because there's just so much dysfunction that he left behind. He has a. A striving father, is alcoholic, he's abusive. His younger brother is, you know, just on the verge of being in the streets. Right? Just. He's a good kid, but he's. He doesn't have that guidance. And, you know, it's the streets that. That's showing him the love. His. His mother, she. She just wants her husband back, and she's blind to all the things and all the ways that he mistreats her. And we have just Solomon being this. The older brother who's feeling guilty about leaving everything behind. So he. He tries to go back and tries to fix and. But it's like, you know, when you have a bunch of socks in your hand and you're trying to carry them up the stairs, but they keep on falling down? You have to constantly be going back and picking them up, and as much as you're picking up the socks, more fall down. Right? So it's just that he is trying, but it's hard. And that's where we find the hardship for Solomon. And of course, again, we have these external forces, Right, that impact their lives. They didn't want to be where they are, but because their family was from Haiti originally, and because of the politics there, they fled to Guadeloupe. So it's like this constant. You're running away or you're moving, but you're just searching for peace and for home, but you just cannot find it. And that's what the novel is basically about.
- [55:46]
C
Yeah, I really loved it as well. And I want to thank you for, first of all, correcting me very graciously. We were not kings. Not we are kings. I don't know if I was watching, like, that football movie with Denzel Washington recently or something. We were titans or something. I don't know. But just something happened in my head. There was a slip. I. I was. One of the things that was really interesting and notable for me, and the thing that I first encountered when I first read the first page of the first story I ever read by you, and I'm asking an extra question here. Call it Holly's bonus question, because why not? Is that you really pick up language and dialect beautifully and bringing dialect. I'm talking about in the context of Canadian literature here, specifically bringing dialect of a culture that is. I mean, what is Canadian culture? Canadian culture is every other culture. I mean, we're sitting here on stolen land. Like, it's kind of hard to nail down what Canadian culture is, but let's just say anglophone speaking. Readers bringing a different dialect can be tricky. Right. Because you. You want to make it still transparent what they're saying, or at least accessible, if not totally transparent. And what I mean by that is, even if an expression is new to us, that you know what it mean, we know what it means. We can infer what it means to an extent. I'm also someone that didn't want to italicize any of the farsy words in my book, because I was like, no, it's as much a part of language as English and refuse to do this. I. I lost that fight, by the way. But so I'm saying this with a lot of. I don't really have a clear view of what the right way to do something is, but there was really beautiful dialect in your book that felt there's a large degree of what I would assume to be versatimilitude. I don't know. I've never lived in these places, but it felt like I was literally being dropped into this house or on the street, and it was just so deliciously real to me. And I would love just hear a little bit about how you. You brought that language and that dialect to the page.
- [57:56]
D
Yes. Thanks for that question. That's. That's wonderful question. You know, it's part of being authentic and really putting myself in the character's shoes and just thinking, you know, how are they feeling right now? What are they saying? How are they saying it? I mean, I just look at the first page when you mentioned it, and I see exactly what you mean, and I don't think it would work any other way. Right. Because she's saying in Creole, you know, oh, Gilbert, Angeline, plie, plie. Right. Just cry, cry. But, yeah, that's exactly what the grandmother is feeling right now. And that is what I want to convey. But aside from that, I think it's very important that as authors and as writers, that we represent as much as we can that authenticity. Sometimes it's a battle that we're not going to win, but I think it's important that we try to. There are so many different lenses watching us and wanting to curate what we write and how we write it, and sometimes we have to push back and say, no, this is what I really want to say. This is what I mean. Sometimes it might. You. We might lose the battle with the italics. Right. But at least it's on the page and we can't forget that Canada, oh my gosh, it's so diverse. And you know, some of these gatekeepers, they should not be gatekeeping. And we have to break down some of these walls so little by little, you know, if it's a slow, if it's a slow going, well, let it be. But at least that we push and that we try. And I've been fortunate that my editors have been great in that regard. But I will keep on doing that because if it feels authentic to me. Right. I hope it feels authentic to the, to the reader.
- [60:23]
C
Well, it felt, when I say authentic to me again, I have no gauge for what authentic culture would be in some of these areas, but it's felt authentic, which is the only gauge I have and it's the one I depend on. Well, I want to thank you so much for joining us today on nbn, but I do have just one more question, and that is, what are you working on now?
- [60:45]
D
Right now I am working on novel number three and it's called the Twelfth House. And I am on deadline as of 4pm today.
- [61:03]
C
Talking to me, Robert, after.
- [61:05]
D
This, but I'm pretty much done. Just have to write a couple of things. But yeah, I can't say much about it except that again it's set in Dominica and this one is strictly in Dominica and it's. Again, it's is. What's the word I'm looking for? Oh my gosh. Having ghosts and oh my gosh, my brain is gone now. But basically it's a young girl who, she's not born yet, but she can still impact the lives of her father and her future and she's willing to, to be born. So she does things in a way that eventually she will be born. And there's a part of her that wants to take revenge on her father for something that happens, you know, in the past.
- [62:12]
B
And.
- [62:15]
D
Again it deals with the whole notion of slavery and colonialism. Um, it's set in 17, between 1794 and 1834 when slavery was abolished in, in Dominica.
- [62:35]
C
I mean, I don't know what this father did, but I automatically assumed that she is right to take revenge. And I want to say as a middle aged woman who is entering my vigilante era, I cannot wait and I wish I'd done it sooner. So we have somebody who's a girl who's not even born yet already doing it and I'm here for it and I can't wait to read this book. I actually started just snapping my fingers when you said that. Like.
- [63:04]
D
Yes, well, it's called the 12th House and it'll be coming out end of August 2026.
- [63:15]
C
So hear that everyone. Put this on your reading list. The 12th house. And we were not kings and tall as your Body. Just get the trifecta and immerse yourself in it. You will not regret it, I promise you that. And I don't make many promises these days. But I do promise you will love these books as much as I do. And if you don't, I will fight you. Thank you so much for joining me today, Robert, to talk about your gorgeous book, Tall as her Body. And I hope to have you back to talk about the 12th house soon.
- [63:43]
D
Alai, thank you so much for the invitation and for having me on nbn. I am a fan of yours and I was so excited to meet you at the end of the summer and I am just very happy to be here today talking about this book. And yes, thank you so much. And yeah, I hope folks pick up the books and read them and have a conversation about them if possible.
- [64:15]
C
I hope they do too. Thank you so much, Robert and I'll talk to you soon.
- [64:19]
D
Okay, Hawan, take care.