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- [00:00]
Marshall Poe
Hello, everybody. This is Marshall Po. I'm the founder and editor of the New Books Network. And if you're listening to this, you know that the NBN is the largest academic podcast network in the world. We reach a worldwide audience of 2 million people. You may have a podcast or you may be thinking about starting a podcast. As you probably know, there are challenges basically of two kinds. One is technical. There are things you have to know in order to get your podcast produced and distributed. And the second is, and this is the biggest problem, you need to get an audience. Building an audience in podcasting is the hardest thing to do today. With this in mind, we at the NBM have started a service called NBN Productions. What we do is help you create a podcast, produce your podcast, distribute your podcast, and we host your podcast. Most importantly, what we do is we distribute your podcast to the NBN audience. We've done this many times with many academic podcasts, and we would like to help you. If you would be interested in talking to us about how we can help you with your podcast, please contact us. Just go to the front page of the New Books Network and you will see a link to NBN Productions. Click that, fill out the form, and we can talk. Welcome to the New Books Network.
- [01:07]
Dr. Raj Bal
Hello and welcome back to the New Books and Indian Religions Podcast, a podcast channel here on the New Books Network. I'm your host, Dr. Raj Bal. More importantly, have the pleasure of welcoming to the podcast today Ruth Perini, who has just published the Varaha Upanishad. The subtitle of her publication is the Path to Supreme Knowledge. Ruth, welcome to the podcast.
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Ruth Perini
Thank you for having me. Thank you for your invitation.
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Dr. Raj Bal
Oh, it's our pleasure. Tell us a bit about the backstory. How did this get on your radar? How did you become so interesting in this past?
- [01:41]
Ruth Perini
Well, actually, it's a long story. Wait a minute. If I think back when I was at school a long time ago, I did languages. And I loved the ancient languages, Latin. And then I went to university. I was really interested in philosophy then. This was in the 60s. And anyway, I didn't really take to the Western philosophy. Anyway, many years later, I had the opportunity to train as a yoga teacher. And then the tradition. I was with Satchin Nanda. They were very into the philosophy and the psychology. Psychology. It was very much inclusive of all those. It was like one package. You had language, you had the body, you had the mind. And then I opened my own yoga studio, and the walls were sort of pretty empty, so I decided to paint some chakras and Yantras so people would have something to focus on during meditation. And I didn't know how to write the Devanagari, the Sanskrit letters. So I was looking up, Googling how to write. Anyway, I couldn't find them. But I did find that course at Australian National University. And I had two friends who had studied under the teacher Makomis Taylor and were saying how wonderful he was. So I thought, well, I'll just try one semester. By then I should know how to write the characters and that'll be enough. But then I was hooked, kept going. In the meantime, we had an Acharya Yoga living in Sydney and I was helping her collate the teachings like Raja Yoga, Bhakti Yoga and Jnana Yoga. And she knew I'd been studying Sanskrit. And she said, well, what are you going to do with all this Sanskrit? And I said, well, I knew that I had been told there were a lot of materials to be translated. So I said oh, I'll just look for something to translate. And she said, well, I've got something for you to translate. 21 yoga upanishads. So that's the short story of how I got to that project. And so I just did the translation of the first four or four she had put the. She had requested the head of Satchananda Yoga in India, Swami Naranjan, what we should start with. And he said Yoga Tattva Upanishad and Yoga Darshana Upanishad. So we did those. Then I did the translations, she did the commentaries. And then it was until. And then she passed away. Then we did two more together, Kundalini Yoga and Nada Bindu and Dhyana Bindu Yoga. Then she passed away in 2019. And then I thought, well, I'll just have a try of doing them myself. And so I've done four more since then. So.
- [05:26]
Dr. Raj Bal
Well, first I have to mention, yes, McComas is indeed a lovely person and great teacher. He's a colleague of mine, following friend of mine. We've done some co publishing together, attended some conferences and all that. So tell us a little bit about this genre. This is this genre of text. Like what is the Varaha Upanishad? What is that all about?
- [05:46]
Ruth Perini
Right, well, Varaha means the boar. And see, you're not reading it. I'll spell it out B O A R in case you think it's the other boar. And it was an incarnation of Vishnu. So Vishnu had 10 incarnations. And it came down when there were a lot of problems in the world. So this time there was a flood and he came down then. So at that time, it was his mission to destroy the demon Hiranyaksha who had flooded the entire earth. Anyway, the Varaha. Oh, so in the first chapter. So the Yoga Upanishads are actually a way. I'll just tell you first what the Upanishads are. The word Upanishad, it's actually comprised of three words. Upa, meaning near, ni attentively, and shud, to sit. And that's how the teachings were submitted. Right. The aspirant would sit near the realized master, listening attentively as he described the nature of reality and how to attain it. And the aim of this teaching was to remove the ignorance of the spiritual aspirant by showing the difference between the true permanent self and the temporal egoic self. So the main source of Vedanta, which is like the post Vedic era, and the main source is the Upanishadic texts. And the Yoga Upanishads give. And there are 21 of them, and this one Varaha Upanishads, said to have been composed between the 13th and 16th century of the common era. And they give an understanding of the hidden forces in oneself and in nature and describe esoteric yogic practices by which these forces can be manipulated and controlled. And they do emphasize that the inner journey to the one permanent reality, the Atman, is the essential one. Journeys to external places such as holy sites and temples, as well as rituals and ceremonies are not given importance. And their teachings give important information about the subtle body. And this information has not been given in the earlier Upanishads. You know, people think that the body is the physical body. And yet, especially in this era, today we're really living through the mind and our emotions, and they are part of the subtle body. So. But the subtle body consists of chakras, which are energy centers, koshers. So these are the different dimensions of the human. There's the physical, mental, energetic, intuitive, and finally the blissful dimension. And there's prana, the vital energies, and kundalini, which is the spiritual energy which we're trying to activate. And teachings are given on how to attain meditative states through sometimes Tantric practices such as mantra and also yogic techniques. So they are regarded as a significant integration of Vedanta and Tantra, which were previously considered incompatible.
- [10:06]
Dr. Raj Bal
That was one of my questions, actually, for you to comment on whether this was a Tantric text or not. But you summed it up quite nicely in that it's a synthesis Tantric thought, sort of Quranic lore, of yogic ideas. It really is a fascinating work, genre wise. Could you tell us a little bit about your process translating it? What's your process then?
- [10:29]
Ruth Perini
Does that look like my process? Well, first of all, I read up everything I can find about that particular Upanishad. So, you know, I don't just make it all up in my head. And then there are a few translations available which I read through as well. And then I have a book published in 1914 by, er, which has all the Sanskrit as well as some translations. So then I transcribe the Sanskrit into a notebook. I do everything by hand first, and then I translate it and I leave spaces. Nobody could accuse me of plagiarism. There's so many notes in my notebook about each one. And then I also decide. So I transcribe it into English, then, I mean, Roman letters, and then look up the words, I don't know, and then spend a lot of time thinking about it, rearranging the words, trying to make sense of it, as well as keeping to the original Sanskrit. And it can become a big obsessive because sometimes then I can only do it not more than two or three hours at a time. And then I'll go off and do something else, preferably something physical. And then suddenly, in the middle of the night, I might wake up and think of meaning for a word that I thought I couldn't think I couldn't find.
- [12:33]
Dr. Raj Bal
You put some ingredients in the crock pot and then let it kind of simmer and your subconscious does the work for you while you're sleeping, circulating there. Yeah, yeah, it's part of, Part of why I ask is because, as anyone who knows multiple languages or has attempted to translate will realize, it is a very involved process. And it seems to my mind all the more so with Sanskrit that is so extraordinarily different from English and has so many, many, many connotations that have accrued over millennia. Various case endings, genders, et cetera.
- [13:09]
Ruth Perini
So.
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Dr. Raj Bal
So really there is no. The Bhagavad Gita, Right? You have five top scholars who are all rendering verses with very important differences. Because we have to make decisions, there is often no direct way to render something. It demands interpretation and, and, and neat philosophical, semantic interpretation. So, so that's great. So what are some of the. I realize it's a rich text and there's lots in there, but what are some of the bits that are most impactful, memorable, noteworthy for you? What really resonates or what really sticks out in your mind?
- [13:48]
Ruth Perini
Well, in general? Well, the wisdom that comes out of it, that's what we're looking for, isn't it? And how these were composed? Well, from the teachings of the original Rishis, I don't know, hundreds, thousands of years ago. Nobody actually has an exact date. And that wisdom is as relevant today as it was in those days before we had all the material and technological and so on, benefits of different social systems, which is that there is a true self that is within everybody. And how to access that?
- [14:43]
Dr. Raj Bal
You were commenting on the wisdom, the parts of the text that most are most memorable or remarkable to you.
- [14:52]
Ruth Perini
Oh, of this particular text you're talking about. Oh, okay. Well, the way it's set out. So in the yoga pani chats, in this particular one, there is a sage Erbu, who's really almost enlightened. We would say he was enlightened because he was a direct son of Brahma and also the composer of the Vishnu Purana. And yet he has the humility to still ask Vishnu how to explain the supreme knowledge of Brahman, this wide, empty, infinite space through which we all come. And so Vishnu starts with the material, really all the elements that make up the world, starting with the sensory organs, organs of action. The vital is the mind, the five elements of nature. Everything is composed of those five elements. Earth, water, fire, air and ether. The states of consciousness that we're always in, waking, dreaming and sleeping. And how to get beyond that? There is another state of consciousness. Usually we think that's it. But no, they are reflections of the pure consciousness that permeates everything. And so et cetera. And the qualities the pervade all of us, like so it gives an understanding of the human being, for instance, the qualities that pervade all nature, which are not called lagunas. There are three, okay? The lowest is tamas. There's tamas, rajas and sattva. So tamas is dullness, ignorance, violence and inertia. Everybody's got some of that in it. Then there's rajas, which is activity and competition. And saptva is the one, the purest one, attachment to goodness and knowledge. But even that there is an attachment, it's not the highest because we have that attachment. And once that's purified, that's called shude satwa. That's when you're enlightened. But anyway, there's a very practical. It's a very practical knowledge. I found that in relationships, for instance, I can ask myself, especially a difficult relationship, how am I acting in this conflict or whatever? Am I being Tamasic? Am I being rajasic or tamasic? Am I just going from the ego and just want to win? Am I being rajasic? Am I seeing this trying to be better than the other person? Or am I being sucked wick? Do I just want wisdom and a good outcome and then I can have an opinion of how the other person is reacting as well? And if it's clear that they are just tamasic, there's no point continuing, really. So I found that it's a very good guideline.
- [19:12]
Dr. Raj Bal
So what is the significance of Vishnu's Varaha's boar avatar? Sorry, Vishnu's what bore avatar? What is the significance of this particular avatar for this philosophy?
- [19:26]
Ruth Perini
Well, his mission in this incarnation there was a demon called Hiranyaksha. Hiran means golden eyed, and Yaksha is a demon. And he had flooded the entire earth. And Varaha's mission was to destroy this demon. It's actually very similar to the story of Noah and the ark. And then I did hear that at that time there was a lot of floods in the earth too.
- [20:11]
Dr. Raj Bal
Who would you say this book is translated for? Who might be the major targeted audience in this book?
- [20:20]
Ruth Perini
Well, I think anybody who wants a deeper understanding of themselves and the path of yoga. As I've said before, the Upanishads offer timeless wisdom, which is just as relevant today as in ancient times. And I think the inclusion of the Devanakari will appeal to scholars and the translation.
- [20:44]
Dr. Raj Bal
And students. And students. Because you've parsed, you include the original verses and you include the parsing as well. So it might be quite useful, those studying Sanskrit.
- [20:56]
Ruth Perini
Yeah, yeah. Anyway, I also hope they will tell me of any mistakes I've made. It's quite easy to make a mistake, even though you edited about a hundred times. But because of the structure of the book, a knowledge of Sanskrit is not necessary. And also there are many references to and quotations from principal Upanishads and evolved teachers such as Swami Sivananda, who was, you know, the param guru of this lineage. And then Swami Satchananda and our current Swami Niranjananda, and also my personal teacher and mentor, Swami Satchadharma, and also from Swami Vivekananda in particular on the Advaita Vedanta.
- [22:00]
Dr. Raj Bal
That's fascinating. Are you continuing your work in Sanskrit translation? Is there something else next on the list of projects?
- [22:10]
Ruth Perini
Yeah, I'm working now on two of the Amrita Upanishads. Amrita Nada Upanishad and Amrita Bindu Panishad. And Amrita literally Means non death or deathless in the sense of transcendence. Although all the Upanishads are about transcendence, from the mundane world to a higher state, to being a Jivanmukta. So the Jivanmukta is the one who is still living in the physical body, acting in the world according to his or her karmas, but remaining calm and equanimous at the same time and knowing that that's not his or her true self.
- [23:10]
Dr. Raj Bal
Is there anything else either about the text or the transition project that you'd like to touch on or mention? Before we close?
- [23:19]
Ruth Perini
Can I just talk a bit about a Jeevan Mukti? Because about Jeevan forced to final liberation. So that's the thing, the Bhagavad Gita too, we know that. And it's really something necessary for a happy life, I think. So Jivanmukji means final liberation while fulfilling one duties in the material world. And there are seven stages of wisdom that are necessary to attain that state. So they are the desire for virtue, self inquiry. Who am I? A subtle mind, a state of harmony and equanimity, non attachment to the transitory world, knowledge of the reality of Brahman, and awareness of one's true self. And all of which, according to Vedanta, have been achieved by Jivanmukta. So that is definitely a straight path, although a difficult one. So yeah, one of the qualities, I think the main quality of that is in Sanskrit it's called Mumukshutva, a strong desire for liberation, more than any other desire. And also the two approaches to liberation are described. So if you want to be liberated during this lifetime, you are like the bird to Sage Shukra. And or what most of us are doing is following by the gradual liberation of the Sage Varma Deva. So you do all these practices, yoga, etc. Devotion, maybe all the yogas. And then gradually you get benefits each lifetime and finally you reach that stage. Yes. So also, can I just talk very quickly about the different yogas? What is yoga? So we're using in this Upanishad, it gives practical advice on how to attain the knowledge of the true reality or the Atman. And that's through yoga. And so the divinity within us is the one reality. So all the yogas lead to this reality. They are Mantra Yoga, which liberates the mind through the vibration of empowered sounds, Hatha Yoga, which channels the pranas in the body, attaining physical and mental purity, Laya Yoga, which dissolves the conditional mind, Karma Yoga, actions which are performed for the welfare of others, without attachment to the fruit of the action and with the knowledge that one is not the doer. Bhakti Yoga, the yoga of devotion and service. Jnana Yoga, the path of spiritual knowledge and wisdom through contemplation on one's true nature. And Raja Yoga, the royal path, as expounded in Patanjali's Yoga Sutra. So yoga, as well as a philosophy, is a body of practice. It's practical, an experience that has evolved through the ages. Direct knowledge gained through experience is the goal of yoga. So actually these yoga Upanishads are considered amongst the minor Upanishads. But it's not really minor how they're divided up major and minor. The major ones were commented on by Adi Shankara and then these ones came after. But doesn't mean they're less important.
- [28:09]
Dr. Raj Bal
Fascinating. Well, thank you very much for appearing on the podcast today and presenting on your new translation.
- [28:15]
Ruth Perini
Thank you.
- [28:16]
Dr. Raj Bal
For those listening we've been talking through about the new translation of the Path of Supreme Knowledge. The links are all in your podcast notes. Till next time, keep well, keep listening, keep reading and keep contemplating yogic knowledge. All right, for now.
- [28:46]
Expedia Narrator
Mike and Alyssa are always trying to outdo each other. When Alyssa got a small water bottle, Mike showed up with a 4 litre ju. When Mike started gardening, Alyssa started beekeeping.
- [28:58]
Ruth Perini
Oh, come on.
- [28:59]
Expedia Narrator
They called a truce for their holiday and used Expedia trip planner to collaborate on all the details of their trip. Once there, Mike still did more laps around the pool.
- [29:08]
Dr. Raj Bal
Whatever.
- [29:10]
Expedia Narrator
You were made to outdo your holidays. We were made to help organize the competition. Expedia made to travel.