Episode Overview

Podcast: New Books Network – Performing Arts
Host: Pete Kunze
Guest: Ryan Donovan, Assistant Professor of Theater Studies, Duke University
Book: Broadway Bodies: A Critical History of Conformity (Oxford University Press, 2023)
Date: January 18, 2026

Main Theme:
This episode delves into Ryan Donovan’s Broadway Bodies: A Critical History of Conformity, unpacking how Broadway musicals construct and enforce a “Broadway body” ideal and the complex interplay of norms around body image, ability, sexuality, and inclusion. Donovan and Kunze explore industry structures, casting practices, and the paradoxes between Broadway’s inclusive reputation and its persistent standards of conformity.

Guest Introduction & Background

• Donovan’s Background in the Industry ([01:49])
  • Started as a professional dancer before pursuing academia:

    “I turned 30 and I thought, okay, what else does life have in store for me? Let me get a PhD because I like picking careers that require long, intense periods of training for few job opportunities.” – Ryan Donovan [01:49]

  • Personal experience as an “insider-outsider” informs his scholarly lens, bringing a practitioner’s understanding of Broadway’s unspoken norms.
  • Combines practical theater experience with academic training at CUNY Graduate Center.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Book’s Genesis and Method

• Origins and Methods ([03:44])

  • The book grew out of Donovan’s PhD dissertation, merging firsthand industry knowledge with archival work and emerging fields like fat studies and disability studies.
  • Used archival research (Library of Congress, Lincoln Center) and historic interviews, tracing how “the ways that language and norms evolve” ([06:56]).
  • Drew critical connections between theater, bodily norms, and broader societal forces such as eugenicism, referencing Erving Goffman’s Stigma ([12:55]).

• Intersectionality of Stigmatized Identities ([12:55])

  • Explains integrating fat studies, disability studies, and queer studies to address stigma and “bodies that eugenicists sought to eradicate” in early 20th century.

  “We have these histories of these bodies that eugenicists sought to eradicate. ... How did the stigmas that emerge from that era impact who we see on stage today?” – Ryan Donovan [12:55]

Casting as Labor Practice: Norms, Power, and Progress

• Casting’s Central Role ([15:39])

  • Moves beyond textual analysis to frame casting as a labor practice embedded in subjective and often exclusionary norms.
  • Challenges the notion that casting’s subjectivity must be discriminatory:

    “While I acknowledge that it’s always going to be subjective, what I am arguing in the book is that it doesn’t have to be discriminatory at the same time as it is subjective.” – Ryan Donovan [15:39]

• Barriers to Inclusion

  • Actors Equity and union efforts can only do so much; producers and creative teams often enforce traditional norms ([15:39]).
  • Cites personal examples (height requirements for dancers) and how these practices reinforce conformity.

• Broadway’s Paradox: Inclusion vs. Conformity ([18:08], [19:04])

  • Despite a reputation for inclusivity (especially for LGBTQ+ and people of color), Broadway remains largely inaccessible: financially, physically, and in terms of body types.
  • Theaters’ architecture and practices are largely unchanged and inaccessible for disabled performers and audience members.

    “…it is uncomfortable, if impossible to attend many, many of these Broadway theaters … without a thought for accessibility… It’s kind of a separate and unequal experience.” – Ryan Donovan [19:04]

Evolution and Persistence of the “Broadway Body” Ideal

• Defining the “Broadway Body” and Its Neoliberal Roots ([30:29])
  • Coined as “the hyper-fit, exceptionally able triple threat performer” – someone with perfect fitness, talent, and appearance, capable of “doing anything.”
  • Traces the ideal’s origins to 1950s–70s transitions: the shift from separate singing and dancing choruses to versatile performers (post-West Side Story), paralleling cultural pressures for fitness and efficiency—hallmarks of neoliberalism.
  • Example: the fitness trend in the 1980s, with Broadway stars producing workout tapes.

    “The consolidation of all these skills and this look in one performer’s body saved producers money… it also made them more profitable because they were more replicable.” – Ryan Donovan [30:29]

  • Points to how this norm still informs wage gaps and exclusions across marginalized identities.

Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On exposing the industry’s hypocrisy:

  “So much of the industry that is accepted as just the norm and the unquestioned norm, in fact… The book really began with examining what are these unquestioned norms and why might they be there.” – Ryan Donovan [03:44]

• On enduring, unapologetic bias within Broadway’s own press:

  “…the ways that LGBTQ+ folks were openly denigrated in the press in the 1970s and 80s… people gasp at the language that was just so common then.” – Ryan Donovan [06:56]

• On body neutrality vs. body positivity:

  “People should be able to look how they want to look… I see myself…as contributing to more of the discourse around body neutrality rather than body positivity.” – Ryan Donovan [26:35]

In-Depth Case Studies

Jennifer Holliday as Effie in Dreamgirls ([38:53])

• Iconic performances and their impact:
  • Holliday’s “And I Am Telling You I’m Not Going” remains a cultural touchstone—her presence deeply shapes the role’s future interpretations.
  • Issues raised: fatness as central to Effie’s role, pressure for successors to use fat suits, and the system’s tendency to replace her with thinner, less vocally powerful performers after she originated the role.

    “The association of Holliday with Dreamgirls is so profound that she’s mentioned in almost every single review of the show, whether she’s in it or not.” – Ryan Donovan [38:53]

  • The onstage narrative and backstage realities eerily mirror each other regarding body size and replacement.

George & Albin in La Cage Aux Folles ([45:57])

• Inclusion and ambivalence:
  • La Cage Aux Folles marked a milestone as a musical about gay love, yet its leads were straight men, reflecting contemporary anxieties.

    “In 1983, when they were casting this show, there were no out gay actors. It would have been career suicide …” – Ryan Donovan [46:43]

  • Inconsistent public acknowledgment of actor sexualities in revivals betrays shifting but still ambivalent attitudes.
  • Memorable moment: George Hearn’s refusal to perform in drag at the Tony Awards, while the show’s drag ensemble did; in contrast, the lower-stakes Grammy performance featured drag:

    “I just felt that it was such a betrayal of the show’s values.” – Ryan Donovan [51:02]

Ali Stroker as Ado Annie in Oklahoma! ([54:55])

• Groundbreaking visible disability and sexuality:
  • Stroker’s casting as Ado Annie marked the first time a wheelchair user played a major role on Broadway, redefining the character’s sexuality and audience expectations.

    “It was revolutionary because it allowed a performer with a visible disability to actually be sexual and to acknowledge that disabled people have a full range of desire and sexual expression.” – Ryan Donovan [55:34]

  • Noted subsequent recastings: trans and plus-size Black women in the same role—signifying an evolving openness towards visible difference in key characters.

Broadway’s Tensions and Contemporary Changes

The Star System & Commercial Pressures ([26:35], [62:22])

• Broadway as an industry governed by profit, real estate, and star power – commercial imperatives often override inclusive ideals.
• Stars like Jinkx Monsoon (a non-binary drag performer) playing Mama Morton in Chicago signals both progress and industry marketing strategy.
• Younger audiences “want and expect to see inclusive casting” ([62:22]).

Redefining Award Categories ([64:39])

• The case of Justin David Sullivan (non-binary performer, & Juliet) declining Tony consideration due to gendered categories highlights persistent institutional gaps.

  “If we do away with gendered categories, it’s very likely that the majority of awards are going to be given to CIS men… it’s complicated… by solving one problem, you create another.” – Ryan Donovan [65:22]

Scholarly Approach & Future Directions

• Donovan’s current and future research:
  Focuses on the rise of virtuosity in the 1970s and how impossibly high expectations for musical theater performers took hold—a project involving in-depth archival research ([70:34]).

Notable Timestamps

• [01:16] – Introduction to guest and book
• [03:44] – Practitioner’s perspective on the “Broadway body”
• [06:56] – Methodology: archival/low theory, applied fat and disability studies
• [15:39] – Casting as artistic, subjective, and discriminatory labor practice
• [19:04] – Accessibility and financial/geographic exclusion
• [30:29] – Definition and neoliberal roots of the “Broadway body”
• [38:53] – Case Study: Jennifer Holliday as Effie in Dreamgirls
• [45:57] – Case Study: Straight casting in La Cage Aux Folles
• [54:55] – Case Study: Ali Stroker, visible disability, and Oklahoma!
• [62:22] – Signs of progress: Jinkx Monsoon, Bonnie Milligan, and more
• [64:39] – Gendered award categories and non-binary performers
• [70:34] – New research: 1970s virtuosity and evolving standards

Final Reflections

Donovan’s Broadway Bodies is a critical intervention, not only documenting the history of conformity on Broadway but challenging ideological, material, and methodological approaches to musical theater. Via vivid case studies and a scholarly yet passionate voice, Donovan and Kunze illuminate how conversations about bodies, casting, and representation intersect with labor, economics, and evolving conceptions of inclusion—offering both hope and critique for Broadway's future.