Podcast Summary

Podcast: New Books Network

Episode: S. Orestis Palermos, "Cyborg Rights: Extending Cognition, Ethics, and the Law" (Routledge, 2025)

Date: October 10, 2025

Host: Carrie Figdor

Guest: S. Orestis Palermos

Overview of the Episode

This episode features a deep conversation between host Carrie Figdor and philosopher S. Orestis Palermos, whose new book, Cyborg Rights: Extending Cognition, Ethics, and the Law (Routledge, 2025), explores the philosophical, ethical, and legal implications of the "extended mind" thesis in an age where human minds increasingly rely on – and merge with – digital technologies. The discussion traverses philosophical debates, the real-world impact of cognitive and neural extension devices, critical questions about privacy and autonomy, and what new rights and legal frameworks might be needed in a cyborg future.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Palermos’ Intellectual Trajectory & Book Origins

• Background: Palermos moved from chemical engineering to philosophy, motivated by existential questions and dissatisfaction with engineering's limits ([04:23]).
• Origins of the Book: Initial academic interest in the Extended Mind thesis (how technologies can expand knowledge) broadened to ethics and law, especially after collaborating on the concept of "extended assault"—where harming someone’s cognitive device could be more than property damage ([04:23]-[09:10]).
  • Quote: “At some point I also started thinking about some of the ethical issues that might come up when we think about the possibility that our minds are not just confined within our bodies.” — Orestis Palermos ([04:23])

2. The Extended Mind Thesis and Cyborg Identity

• What is the Extended Mind?: The thesis holds that technological tools—ranging from low-tech (pen and paper) to advanced neural implants—can literally become parts of our minds, not just aids ([09:39]-[14:37]).
• Becoming Cyborgs: Being a ‘cyborg’ is not science fiction but a real, philosophical claim: “To say that someone's mind can extend is to say that basically they are a cyborg, a cybernetic organism…” — Palermos ([09:39])
• Levels of Extension:
  • Extended Cognition: Tools expand basic capacities (e.g., using notes to remember) ([09:39]).
  • Extended Mind: Higher-level mental states (beliefs, intentions) reside partly outside the biological brain.

3. Why Philosophy Matters for Law and Ethics

• Metaphysical Stakes: Ethical and legal arguments are stronger if one accepts the metaphysics of extended mind (i.e., that these technologies are part of the self, not mere property) ([16:02]-[18:37]).
  • Quote: "You cannot have ethics, let alone some kind of legal scholarship, without metaphysics..." — Palermos ([16:02])

4. Threats to Mental Privacy and Integrity

• New Vulnerabilities: If technologies house our thoughts, privacy risks escalate. Unlike physical harms of the past, digital breaches threaten actual mental content ([21:49]).
  • Quote: “So far no one could actually access my mental contents in the same way that I access them... However, now, if the extending mind thesis is correct... someone could potentially access those beliefs or memories or even desires.” — Palermos ([21:49])
• Informational Integration: The more technology is fused into our cognition (AI-curated photo memories, notifications aligned with our lives), the more these contents become ‘mental’—and thus deserving of higher protection ([21:49]-[30:41]).
• Manipulation Risks: Not just data theft, but the ability to surgically manipulate beliefs and desires through hacked or controlled extensions ([21:49]).
  • Quote: “If someone can know your detailed thoughts and beliefs or desires, then obviously they could also manipulate you in a very surgical manner.” — Palermos ([21:49])

5. Intrusive vs. Extensive Technology

• Intrusion and Exploitation: The discussion highlights that the problem is not just extension, but how this process creates new points of intrusion and vulnerability ([30:41]-[34:33]).
• Device Status: Technologies integrated into the self should not be treated as mere property; their violation concerns personal boundaries and dignity ([33:32]).

6. Social Pressure and Choice Over Use

• The Illusion of Freedom: While people seem ‘free’ to adopt or reject these technologies, societal, economic, and accessibility pressures make rejection increasingly unrealistic ([36:03]-[45:59]).
  • Quote: “I don't think that anyone could easily find a job right now if they didn't know how to operate a smartphone... we are all pushed or made to use this kind of technologies.” — Palermos ([38:14])

7. Case Study: Access, Disability, and Personhood

• Disability and Identity: The story of ‘Patient R’ with an epilepsy-predicting neural implant spotlights what’s at stake when companies withdraw essential cognitive tech ([38:14]-[45:59]).
  • Quote: “She and the machine kind of became one... At some point... the company had to discontinue the trial. And they demanded that the implant be explanted … she actually made several appeals to not have it mandatorily explanted.” — Palermos ([38:14])

8. Options for Legal and Technological Protection

• Extreme and Moderate Protections:
  • Proposals include making third-party access to ‘mental’ data technologically impossible (extreme), or at least only possible with explicit informed consent (moderate) ([48:07]).
  • Quote: “Perhaps we should design those technologies in a manner that matches that level of protection... make it entirely impossible for others to access this information in our mental extensions.” — Palermos ([48:07])
• Risks of Overprotection: Complete restriction might bar beneficial uses (e.g., medical, voluntary sharing). Must balance autonomy, dignity, and social good ([48:07]-[56:27]).

9. Philosophical Uncertainties and Future Directions

• Paradigm Shift Revisited: The excitement around the extended mind is shadowed by ethical and legal pitfalls ([46:13]).
  • Quote: “If you think it's true, it's actually a horrible thing.” — Figdor ([46:17])
• Evolving Standards and Debates: Determining the scope and universality of rights like ‘extended mental privacy’ will require public debate, not just academic consensus ([48:07]-[56:27]).

10. What’s Next for Palermos

• Exploring topics of AI alignment and virtue ethics in artificial agents ([57:05]).
• Further study of cyborg rights, especially personhood, objectification, and the ethical status of extended self ([57:05]-[60:02]).

Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• On Becoming a Cyborg:
  "To say that someone's mind can extend is to say that basically they are a cyborg, a cybernetic organism." — Palermos ([09:39])

• On the Importance of Metaphysics in Law:
  "You cannot have ethics, let alone some kind of legal scholarship, without metaphysics..." — Palermos ([16:02])

• On Mental Privacy:
  "So far no one could actually access my mental contents in the same way that I access them... However, now... someone could potentially access those beliefs or memories or even desires." — Palermos ([21:49])

• On Societal Pressures:
  "I don't think that anyone could easily find a job right now if they didn't know how to operate a smartphone... we are all pushed or made to use this kind of technologies." — Palermos ([38:14])

• On Disabling Removals of Implants:
  “[Patient R] and the machine kind of became one... The company had to discontinue the trial. And they demanded that the implant be explanted…” — Palermos ([38:14])

• On Heightened Security:
  “Perhaps we should design those technologies in a manner that matches that level of protection... make it entirely impossible for others to access this information in our mental extensions.” — Palermos ([48:07])

Timestamps for Important Segments

| Segment | Content | Time (MM:SS) | |---------|---------|--------------| | Guest Intro & Motivation for the Book | Palermos’ intellectual journey, first spark for the book | [04:23]-[09:10] | | What is the Extended Mind/Cyborg? | Definitions, levels, examples | [09:39]-[14:37] | | Metaphysical Commitments and Law | Why the Extended Mind thesis matters for law | [16:02]-[18:37] | | Threats to Mental Privacy/Integrity | New risks with integrated devices | [21:49]-[30:41] | | Intrusion and Status of Extension Devices | Intrusion vs. extension, personal vs. property rights | [30:41]-[34:33] | | Freedom of Technology Use | Social and economic constraints, illusion of choice | [36:03]-[45:59] | | Disability and Personhood Case | Patient R story | [38:14]-[45:59] | | Legal and Tech Solutions | Extreme vs. moderate protections | [48:07]-[56:27] | | Future Research Directions | AI alignment, further cyborg rights | [57:05]-[60:02] |

Episode Tone and Takeaways

The conversation is thoughtful, inquisitive, and occasionally urgent. Palermos and Figdor share an appreciation for the philosophical puzzles, ethical ambiguities, and policy imperatives entangled in the cyborg condition. The episode makes clear that what once seemed speculative philosophy is now a pressing practical and legal challenge, as technology and the mind blend ever more seamlessly. Palermos advocates for public debate, cross-disciplinary attention, and a recognition that metaphysical details matter when crafting new rights for an extended self.