Podcast Summary: New Books Network – S2 E6: Night at the Baths
Date: September 16, 2025
Host(s): Christy Soares and Ryan Purcell (Soundscapes)
Guest: Lucas Hildebrand (Professor, UC Irvine; Author, The Bars Are Ours: Histories and Cultures of Gay Bars in America, 1960 and After)
Overview
This episode explores Lucas Hildebrand’s acclaimed book The Bars Are Ours, focusing on the history, culture, and politics of gay bars and nightlife—particularly disco-era New York City and the dynamic, complex spaces like bathhouses, discos, and sex clubs. The discussion connects the music and social life of these venues, their evolution, and the mythologies that surround both disco and queer nightlife. The episode draws on archival research, first-person reflections, and musical soundscapes to bring to life an era that continues to shape LGBTQ+ culture.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. The Meaning of “Ours” in Queer Nightlife
[05:14 – 06:55]
- Hildebrand’s framing: The word “ours” in The Bars Are Ours is deliberately problematized and examined as a contested, shifting concept:
- Early gay bars often excluded women, trans people, and especially people of color (notably through racist admissions policies), despite the myth of radical inclusivity.
- Inclusion in these spaces was often more aspirational than real.
Quote:
“That question of inclusion and who was included in that ‘ours,’ who was welcome in these spaces, was very much contested.”
— Lucas Hildebrand [05:47]
2. Disco Culture: Utopian Myths vs. Social Realities
[06:55 – 10:01]
- Disco commonly romanticized as utopian and inclusive, but Hildebrand unpacks the social exclusivity:
- Early disco scenes were invitation-only or required social connections.
- Musical genre boundaries were more fluid than retrospective codification suggests.
- Important to recognize who “disco” belonged to and how access was managed.
Quote:
“…these earliest parties were by invitation only, or you had to know the right people… even if they weren’t exclusionary in the sense of identity categories, they were socially exclusive in some way.”
— Lucas Hildebrand [08:55]
3. The Social & Sonic Life of Gay Bars
[10:01 – 14:19]
- Gay bars as both sites of liberation and exclusion, where music is central to social memory and identity.
- Songs and soundscapes mark moments of joy, release, or community.
- The DJ’s choices often indicate and shape the demographics and vibe of the room.
Quote:
“…the music transforms who goes to the bar. The music becomes a way of creating community, creating spaces, creating moments.”
— Lucas Hildebrand [12:55]
4. Research Approach: Beyond New York and San Francisco
[14:19 – 19:51]
- Hildebrand’s methodology:
- Intentionally includes smaller cities (e.g., Kansas City, Boston) and unexpected archival finds.
- Acknowledges both the abundance and the surprising scarcity of archives in iconic cities like New York.
- Uses bar ephemera, party invitations, and collections to piece together local and national histories.
5. Definitions: The Blurred Boundaries of Bars, Discos, Baths, and Sex Clubs
[19:51 – 21:01]
- The need to avoid rigidly defining “bar,” “disco,” or “bathhouse”:
- These categories flow into each other; many venues combined these functions.
6. Masculinity, Dress Codes, and the Policing of Gay Spaces
[21:01 – 26:11]
- Example: The Mineshaft (sex club) banned “disco, drag, or dresses”—a nod to rigid masculine presentation and exclusion.
- These rules reflected simultaneous desires for self-invention and policing.
- Clubs maintained elaborate codes about permissible expressions of gayness.
Quote:
“There’s policing of behavior within these spaces themselves… you can’t talk about opera … if you’re in the fisting room. Like, that’s just not allowed in that space.”
— Lucas Hildebrand [23:41]
7. Bathhouses as Multi-Use “Superbars”
[27:17 – 31:51]
- The Continental Baths as a pioneering “superbar”:
- Started as a bathhouse, then added live entertainment (famous for Bette Midler, Barry Manilow), dancing, gym, and more—offering something for everyone.
- Reflected the expansion and diversification of urban gay communities.
Quote:
“…the idea that a space could do all these things, but also the people who go there could be going for many different kinds of experiences really expanded the logic of what a queer venue could be.”
— Lucas Hildebrand [28:37]
8. Activism, Autonomy, and the Political Role of Disco
[32:11 – 34:41]
- Early 1970s activist dances (e.g., the GAA Firehouse) as intentional alternatives to Mafia-controlled bars:
- DJs, not jukeboxes—curation as resistance.
- DJ played and manipulated the crowd, pioneering a unique, participatory dance culture (e.g., Larry Levan).
Quote:
“One of the things that's really fascinating to me is the way in which how music gets played in these venues is political.”
— Lucas Hildebrand [32:50]
9. Music and Memories: Soundscapes of 1970s New York
[34:41 – 39:33]
- Archival audio:
- Bette Midler performing at the Continental Baths, 1972 [34:41]
- Frankie Knuckles (DJ) recalls the bathhouse as an “entertainment complex” with diverse performances—“I could play anything from classical, or jazz or anything… I can go anywhere I wanted to musically and stuff like that” [36:02 – 38:38]
- Larry Levan on creative self-belief and artistry:
“If you are interested in being an artist, and a true artist means one who believes in himself, second to God, that's an artist… just respect everybody, but respect yourself and believe in what you do.”
— Larry Levan [38:45]
10. DJs as Curators and “Teachers” of the Dance Floor
[39:33 – 45:32]
- The ‘cult of the DJ’—especially Larry Levan—created immersive, crowd-driven experiences.
- Levan would control every aspect, making the music (and the DJ’s vision) central at Paradise Garage.
- Contrast with the Saint, which emphasized the built environment and atmosphere over DJ stardom.
Quote:
“Paradise Garage was him and he was Paradise Garage.”
— Lucas Hildebrand [41:18]
11. Transformations of Physical Spaces and Urban Geography
[45:32 – 47:17]
- Clubs and bars transformed over time, sometimes within the same address (One Sheridan Square as Haven, When We Win, etc.).
- The proximity of iconic venues (Stonewall, Paradise Garage, The Saint, GAA Firehouse) shows the hyper-localization of New York’s queer nightscape.
12. Mainstreaming & Misperceptions: Saturday Night Fever and Studio 54
[47:17 – 50:58]
- Mainstream disco moments (e.g., Saturday Night Fever, Studio 54) did not change the essence of gay disco culture.
- Studio 54 “mainstreamed” gay culture but did not replace the cultural or emotional role of queer-owned spaces.
- True “Golden Age” of gay disco in NYC arguably came post-backlash, in the 1980s.
Quote:
“Queer people and people of color and queer people of color had been living disco for a decade before that, and they continued living disco for at least a decade after that.”
— Lucas Hildebrand [48:22]
13. The “Death” Narratives around Disco and Gay Bars
[50:58 – 54:43]
- Persistent narrative that disco and gay bars are “dead or dying” reflects both nostalgia and anxiety, but may be overstated.
- Gay bars have always appeared and disappeared; their frequent closures do not necessarily mean cultural decline.
- Venues often adapt, and some of the most transformative were also short-lived.
Quote:
“The bars that actually define a period often are not the bars that last forever…and I think that actually really changes how we think about this question of longevity or sort of cultural impact.”
— Lucas Hildebrand [54:37]
14. Pulse Nightclub: A Tragic Endpoint, Community Response
[54:43 – 56:14]
- The 2016 Pulse shooting as a closing chapter:
- Sparked outpourings about the importance of queer nightlife and Latin nights for identity and community.
- Re-articulates emotionally and politically why these spaces matter, beyond just fun or entertainment.
Quote:
“…this event re-articulates the significance emotionally, politically, communally, why gay bars matter and why dance clubs and parties matter to people.”
— Lucas Hildebrand [55:02]
Notable Quotes
- “The music transforms who goes to the bar. The music becomes a way of creating community, creating spaces, creating moments.” — Lucas Hildebrand [12:55]
- “You can’t talk about opera … if you’re in the fisting room. Like, that’s just not allowed in that space.” — Lucas Hildebrand [23:41]
- “If you are interested in being an artist, and a true artist means one who believes in himself, second to God, that’s an artist… Just respect everybody, but respect yourself and believe in what you do.” — Larry Levan [38:45]
- “The bars that actually define a period often are not the bars that last forever…and I think that actually really changes how we think about this question of longevity or sort of cultural impact.” — Lucas Hildebrand [54:37]
Key Segments & Timestamps
| Segment | Time | |------------------------------------------------|------------| | Problem of Inclusion in “Ours” | 05:14-06:55| | Disco’s Utopian Myth vs. Reality | 06:55-10:01| | Music and Identity in Gay Bars | 10:01-14:19| | Archival Research Beyond the “Obvious” Cities | 14:19-19:51| | Defining Bars/Discos/Baths: Fluid Boundaries | 19:51-21:01| | Masculinity & Dress Codes in Sex Clubs | 21:01-26:11| | Continental Baths and the Rise of Superbars | 27:17-31:51| | Disco and Activism (GAA Firehouse) | 32:11-34:41| | Audio: Bette Midler, Frankie Knuckles, Levan | 34:41-39:33| | Larry Levan’s Artistry & DJ Culture | 39:33-45:32| | Transforming Spaces (e.g. One Sheridan Square) | 45:32-47:17| | Studio 54 & Mainstreaming of Disco | 47:17-50:58| | Death Narratives: Disco & Gay Bars | 50:58-54:43| | Pulse Shooting’s Significance | 54:43-56:14|
Memorable Moments
-
Frankie Knuckles recalling the Continental Baths as an entertainment complex where musical eclecticism was possible and transformative:
“I could play anything … I can go anywhere I wanted… that was perfect for me.” [36:02-38:38]
-
Larry Levan on the power of belief and artistry in DJing and nightlife: [38:45]
-
Hildebrand on the persistent narrative of disappearance/death and how it masks ongoing adaptation and renewal in queer nightlife.
Resources for Further Exploration
- The Bars Are Archive (Lucas Hildebrand’s digital project of bar ephemera and historical documents):
- Search “the Bars Are Archive” via Alexander Street.
Closing Thoughts
The episode paints queer nightlife as a continuously evolving, richly complex social ecosystem—one that is as shaped by pressures of exclusion and policing as by moments of liberation and joy, and in which music, bodies, and social context inexorably intertwine. The legacies of disco and gay bars endure, adapted and reimagined for new generations, their histories never as simple as “dead or alive.”