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Sabrina Mittermeier, "Fan Phenomena: Disney" (Intellect Books, 2023)
00:54:14
An interview with Sabrina Mittermeier
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- [00:00]
Marshall Poe
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Marshall Poe
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- [02:21]
Pete Kunze
Welcome to New Books and Film, a podcast series on the New Books Network. I Am your host, Pete Kunze. My guest today is Sabrina Mittermeier, the editor of Fan Disney. The book was published by intellect books in 2022. Hi, Sabrina. How are you today?
- [02:37]
Sabrina Mittermeier
I'm good. How are you?
- [02:39]
Pete Kunze
I'm hanging in there. I'm glad for the opportunity to talk to you about this exciting new volume. Can you tell us a bit about your own background in training?
- [02:49]
Sabrina Mittermeier
Yes. So I have a PhD in American Cultural History from the University Ludwigs, Ludwig Maximilian University in Munich, Germany. So most of my work comes from American Studies. But since American studies is very interdisciplinary anyway, what that means to me is I do cultural history, but cultural studies, sort of a wild mixture of all of these things. So whatever interests me, and I've been focusing basically all of my career, if you want to call it that, on.
- [03:19]
Interviewer/Co-host
Popular culture and coming at it from sort of different angles.
- [03:25]
Pete Kunze
And in particular, obviously, in this volume, you're interested in fan practices and fandom. So what drew you to that?
- [03:32]
Sabrina Mittermeier
I guess so. I wrote my dissertation, which is now a monograph on the cultural history of Disneyland. And the hurdle you always come across is that you have no clue what to do with, like, audiences, like the visitors of the theme parks. They're notoriously hard to study because to really study them, what you would have to do is, like, big surveys or, you know, that kind of studies that are basically impossible to do as one person. You can never grasp them. But I think fan studies has, you know, found ways to sort of work around that kind of methodology to study.
- [04:08]
Interviewer/Co-host
Fans or study audiences.
- [04:10]
Sabrina Mittermeier
And so with Disney that it was so clear that that's such a big part of what makes Disney Disney. And so it was kind of surprising that there wasn't more work on Disney fans yet. And I mean, that's it sort of now is the moment when a lot of work in Disney generally, but also Disney fans is coming out.
- [04:26]
Interviewer/Co-host
So it feels like a really good.
- [04:28]
Sabrina Mittermeier
Moment to do this, and it should have been done much earlier, but this.
- [04:33]
Interviewer/Co-host
Is where we are.
- [04:36]
Pete Kunze
Well, I'd love for you to develop that a bit further. What do you see fandom studies doing for Disney studies? What do you see as maybe a gap in previous Disney scholarship or say, a misunderstanding among or incompleteness in earlier Disney scholarship that fan studies really helps to complicate and enrich?
- [04:58]
Sabrina Mittermeier
I think Disney studies is sort of notorious for, like, early Disney studies.
- [05:02]
Interviewer/Co-host
I'm talking 80s, 90s is notorious for.
- [05:07]
Sabrina Mittermeier
Kind of talking about it as this, like, cultural imperialist empire. And I mean, they're not wrong about the Walt Disney Company Being a cultural imperialist and playing a role in that. But I think it's sort of reductive towards, you know, looking at especially casting, you know, the fans or even like casual viewers or visitors of the parks or the films as, you know, sort of dupes that fall for, like, being brainwashed by the industry, by particularly Disney. So I think fan studies kind of brings more nuance to all of this because a lot of fans are very active and how they engage with texts. I think this is. I mean, this is what fan studies is based on, studying a lot of the direct engagement fans have with texts. That means they often produce their own art in some ways, or they engaged, they can be engaging very critically with.
- [06:05]
Interviewer/Co-host
The text they're receiving.
- [06:06]
Sabrina Mittermeier
I think this is a nuance that nobody in early Disney studies was actually looking at. So I think it's just. Just, you know, highlights how much more.
- [06:16]
Interviewer/Co-host
Complex all of this really is.
- [06:18]
Sabrina Mittermeier
I mean, that goes for all of pop culture. But for whatever reason, Disney was always sort of the bogeyman, as, you know, in the culture industry.
- [06:26]
Pete Kunze
Probably because it went after. Went after. Well, it addresses children, right? And we have to protect the children. So these presumptions of the dangers and.
- [06:34]
Sabrina Mittermeier
Then all the, like, never dying rumors about Walt Disney being, like, red fascist, being an anti Semite, being, you know, whatever he was. I'm not saying he was perfect. He was definitely a racist. So many studio executives were on art, like, that's not news. But I think it's also a reductive.
- [06:51]
Interviewer/Co-host
Viewing of a very complicated person and a complicated company.
- [06:55]
Pete Kunze
So, yeah, and one of the things I think this volume does is think about with these histories of imperialism, racism, sexism, homophobia in Disney culture, the ways that fans from those communities have nevertheless engaged in very active and nuanced ways with the content. And I think that that's something that a lot of the readers will benefit from. In reading your volume, I wanted to now invert that question. What do you see a focus on Disney doing for fandom studies? What does studying Disney in particular allow fan scholars to ask research and understand better?
- [07:34]
Sabrina Mittermeier
I think especially sort of that weird moment of like, this is this has been the company so notoriously like, conservative, and so many of its outlooks, and yet so many of the fans of it, very active, very engaged fans of it, are queer, for instance. Like, that's a cliche at this point, but it's also very true. Like the stereotypical, especially white, gay, male Disney fan. But it's also a lot of people of color like, that are you know, big, big, big fans of the company. And they still, you know, know obviously.
- [08:09]
Interviewer/Co-host
About all the problem, problems with racism. They know about the problems with homophobia.
- [08:13]
Sabrina Mittermeier
And I think especially in the last.
- [08:15]
Interviewer/Co-host
Few years, there's been a lot of.
- [08:16]
Sabrina Mittermeier
Critical engagement and also discussion, I think, between fans and the company. Because we're now at a point with like, I mean, it's such a trite argument, but like with social media, with the way people engage with the industry, they had like, the company has also started to listen to fans or at least try to gauge better what like fans like and what they don't like. And that's also something that the book at least tries to pick up on.
- [08:43]
Interviewer/Co-host
In some of the chapters.
- [08:45]
Pete Kunze
Yeah, that was something that struck me and it was actually my next question. I think you kind of hit upon it. But I dabble in literary studies still and I find that people who are interested in fandom and literature sometimes go back to Jenkins. But of course, Jenkins is one of the foundations foundational figures in fan studies and the field has evolved in many ways since textual cultures, you know, with and against Jenkins's ideas. Right. And so I think that was something that came through nicely in your volume, was this kind of sense of where is fan studies out today? Not only in terms of diversity, but in kind of complicating this notion of the fan as kind of a liberatory position or as a resistant position. Right. Thinking through the complicated interchanges that take place between industry and individuals.
- [09:35]
Interviewer/Co-host
Yeah.
- [09:36]
Sabrina Mittermeier
And I think there's an interesting aspect with Disney now too, that there's. And I mean, it's not just Disney, but like this, this idea of anti fandom and this idea of like fans aren't just like the resistance figures either. There's also like a lot of right wing conservative backlash against like this is the weird thing that there's like all these liberal or progressive or whatever you want to call them, Disney fans that try to push the company towards the left and like improve representation. And then there's a whole bunch of Disney fans who are like right wing conservatives or worse, like, you know, outright alt right, you know, figures. And there's that weird point of tension that I think is also not unique to Disney, but it's where a lot.
- [10:22]
Interviewer/Co-host
Of discussion around these topics has taken place because of like, you know, mostly.
- [10:27]
Sabrina Mittermeier
Recent events like don't say gay and that whole debate that Disney was directly involved in because of where they are in Florida, and then also beyond that.
- [10:37]
Interviewer/Co-host
With their filmic output and so on and so forth.
- [10:40]
Sabrina Mittermeier
So I think it's just. Yeah, it's a really good moment to.
- [10:44]
Interviewer/Co-host
Think about all of these things with this company.
- [10:48]
Pete Kunze
Yeah. One of the things I learned in reading your book is that inclusion has been added as a Disney value in recent years. And from a political perspective, of course, that's exciting for those of us who want a more progressive, inclusive, diverse culture and society. But of course, it's also a. It's a business practice for Disney. Right. It's about making sure that not only people, but customers don't feel excluded. So can you talk a little bit more about inclusion's role in contemporary Disney and other factors that you see inflecting contemporary fan practices with Disney?
- [11:28]
Sabrina Mittermeier
Yeah, I think so. Inclusion, as you already said, is a company practice. I think it was about time that they made it that it's also not like a coincidental moment because they did this after, like, Black Lives Matter. I mean, Black Lives Matter has a longer history, but like, that sort of boiling point in 2020. And I think it's become such an established business practice to say, oh, we're inclusive, we're diverse for all kinds of Fortune 500 companies. And it makes sense for Disney to obviously jump on that and say, we do this. I mean, for their own employees sakes, to be honest, too, because there's also.
- [12:07]
Interviewer/Co-host
Been pushback from employees to some of.
- [12:09]
Sabrina Mittermeier
The stuff with don't say gay and.
- [12:11]
Interviewer/Co-host
Other stuff that the company has been doing.
- [12:15]
Sabrina Mittermeier
But also in terms of fandom, I think it's. They always try to walk such a fine line between, like, not offending anyone and always being, you know, appealing to everyone, which is always, you know, like, it's impossible to appeal to everyone. And I think that's always what the.
- [12:34]
Interviewer/Co-host
Company is trying to do. And you.
- [12:35]
Sabrina Mittermeier
I think you can see that in fan engagements in so many ways.
- [12:41]
Interviewer/Co-host
And what we can do with fence studies with that, I think is sort.
- [12:45]
Sabrina Mittermeier
Of push the, you know, push the. The holes in that logic of, like.
- [12:49]
Interviewer/Co-host
We'Re going to appeal to everyone because.
- [12:52]
Sabrina Mittermeier
You want to appease everyone all the time. And sometimes when they try to actually.
- [12:58]
Interviewer/Co-host
Make things worse or they kind of stagnate.
- [13:03]
Sabrina Mittermeier
I mean, I don't know if this is going too far off track right now, but I think what's also interesting is we're doing this book between 2020 and now, and a lot of the stuff that's been happening happened with Bob Jpek as the CEO, who's also been. I mean, maybe perhaps unrightfully so. Everything that's gone wrong with Disney has been put on him. But now Bob Iger is back, and I think there's so much happening internally with the company that some of the stuff we're probably addressing in this work is already. May be shifting again or is in flux, certainly. And I think there's also an interesting tension to look at it from, like, an industry point of view or like industry studies point of view of, like, what. What are the shifts within a company based on who the CEO is and what their stance, even personal stance, is.
- [13:53]
Interviewer/Co-host
On issues like inclusion and diversity, particularly on.
- [13:56]
Sabrina Mittermeier
Don't say gay. Iger and Chapek did fundamentally not agree, for instance.
- [14:01]
Interviewer/Co-host
So what does this do?
- [14:03]
Sabrina Mittermeier
And I think those are all things like, how will they engage with fans? I think the two of them have.
- [14:08]
Interviewer/Co-host
Very different ways of engaging with fans. So I think that's also something to.
- [14:13]
Sabrina Mittermeier
Not lose track of and maybe not something that's. That's necessarily part of fan studies all that much. Not to be too critical of colleagues. I think there's, like, there's such a.
- [14:25]
Interviewer/Co-host
Wide variety of people who do fan studies. I don't want to place judgment where that's not necessary.
- [14:33]
Pete Kunze
I mean, it's clearly something that's changing quite a bit.
- [14:35]
Sabrina Mittermeier
Right.
- [14:36]
Pete Kunze
When we think about someone like Iger, who at one point, I believe was considering a run on the Democratic ticket for president, I think he's still going.
- [14:44]
Interviewer/Co-host
To do that, to be honest. Like, his current tenure with the company will run out in, what is it? I think, 20, 24. I think he's back now for two years.
- [14:54]
Sabrina Mittermeier
I'm not surprised if that happens to.
- [14:56]
Interviewer/Co-host
Be when he decides to run for president. I mean, so many things will change, but he's been talking about this for way too long.
- [15:03]
Pete Kunze
Yeah. It's a fascinating intersection of government, politics, corporate businesses, and, well, I guess corporate business is redundant, but corporations and culture. Right. And the fans are right at the center of it. And in some ways, Chapek was reticent, if not inert, about questions of social justice in ways that Iger seems to have been much more open, dare I say even liberal some of the ways I've heard him talk about it. Although there's always that reminder of, like, well, he's speaking as a businessman who realizes he's speaking as a commercial value. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The commercial value of doing. Of being more inclusive.
- [15:45]
Sabrina Mittermeier
I think that's also like, some of the. Where some of the nuance has to come with all of this is because, just like, fans are very nuanced sometimes in how they feel something they can love, something to pieces and still see its flaws. Someone like Iger is still a person who has his own personal political beliefs and is apparently a Democrat, a lifelong Democrat.
- [16:04]
Interviewer/Co-host
He comes from, you know, he comes.
- [16:06]
Sabrina Mittermeier
From more liberal circles and that probably won't ever change. Whereas JPEG is a lifelong Republican and comes from like Silicon Valley. So, you know, like all of these.
- [16:15]
Interviewer/Co-host
Things matter in the end, at the end of the day.
- [16:17]
Sabrina Mittermeier
So yeah, just ignoring that, that part of the company is as flawed as.
- [16:25]
Interviewer/Co-host
Ignoring the fans of the company and all of this.
- [16:27]
Sabrina Mittermeier
And I think that's one of the problems Disney studies have had is that it's been very myopic and something like.
- [16:35]
Interviewer/Co-host
Fan studies can just break that open.
- [16:38]
Pete Kunze
Absolutely. So I wanted to ask you too about the Disney adult, which was a term that seemed to circulate quite a bit in the discourse last year. And I feel like we can't let you escape an interview without us examining the Disney adult. I mean, why do you think the Disney adult is so vexing for non Disney fans?
- [16:57]
Sabrina Mittermeier
The good thing is several media outlets.
- [16:59]
Interviewer/Co-host
Have asked me the same question.
- [17:03]
Sabrina Mittermeier
So I think. So I think the term is interesting because it hadn't been quite like, at least to me. And I mean, I'm online all the time, like painfully online, and I didn't see it used as much before, I think even 2021, maybe 2020 is when.
- [17:22]
Interviewer/Co-host
It started to come up.
- [17:23]
Sabrina Mittermeier
And so my thesis about this has been that it became sort of a term like, you know, the idea the Disney adult is always means it's someone who's completely obsessed with Disney, is completely uncritical of it, and is embarrassing themselves because they, as an adult, like things that are quote unquote for kids or they like them to an obsessive degree. Especially also the parks that they're also.
- [17:45]
Interviewer/Co-host
Annoying even to some of the other fans. Right.
- [17:48]
Sabrina Mittermeier
So it's this like extreme version of Disney fandom that goes to the nth degree. And then it exploded with this like, I think, am I the asshole? Reddit post, you know, where people put their like, you know, usually social situations, often relationship situations, asking people if they're the asshole. And they usually are. And it was about a couple who had a Disney wedding. And because it's so expensive, they didn't provide food for their guests, but instead spent the money on having Mickey and.
- [18:18]
Interviewer/Co-host
Minnie Mouse appear as characters in the ceremony.
- [18:21]
Sabrina Mittermeier
I don't know if it's been debunked now because it also sounded like a made up thing because I think how Disney weddings work is you buy a Certain package. And it would be completely weird for there to not be food. You know what I mean? So I don't know. But this is how this got big. And then suddenly a lot of media outlets latched onto it and there was.
- [18:41]
Interviewer/Co-host
A bigger discussion of Disney Adult.
- [18:43]
Sabrina Mittermeier
But my thesis was like, why did this become such a thing aside, if this Reddit post even was that, I think in 2020, when the parks had shut down because of the pandemic and then reopened very quickly, at least in.
- [18:57]
Interviewer/Co-host
Florida, because it was possible there, I.
- [18:59]
Sabrina Mittermeier
Think people kept obviously going back to the parks. And I think that also drew a.
- [19:06]
Interviewer/Co-host
Lot of, like, ire from other people. Of, like, how can you still go to the parks when this pandemic is spreading, when this virus is killing people?
- [19:16]
Sabrina Mittermeier
And also, how can you go to the parks when a company has just.
- [19:18]
Interviewer/Co-host
Let off thousands and thousands and thousands.
- [19:21]
Sabrina Mittermeier
Of cast members and is treating them badly? I think the people really saw, again, that Disney is a company and they let go people and they have a lot of seasonal workers that they underpay.
- [19:33]
Interviewer/Co-host
And I think that was a focal point.
- [19:35]
Sabrina Mittermeier
And yet there were so many Adam.
- [19:37]
Interviewer/Co-host
And Disney fans who were still going and still pretending none of this was happening, I think.
- [19:42]
Sabrina Mittermeier
And I think this is where all the criticism comes from, and rightfully so. But, yeah, so the Disney adult, I think, is like, the most extreme version of Disney fan. And there's some people that should be rightfully criticized, because a lot of the Disney adults, like, I think that's what mostly is meant by them. Like that example of the Disney wedding, whether it happened or not, is that idea of, like, these are clearly very privileged people, usually with a lot of money, usually whites, who have a lot of spare money to spend on Disney merchandise and stuff like this and are just incredibly entitled. And this is also why they usually annoy other fans. We don't have a chapter on the Disney adult and volume, I think, because that wave of discussing that term happened.
- [20:30]
Interviewer/Co-host
After we were already going to print or around that moment where we were already in final stages of editing.
- [20:37]
Sabrina Mittermeier
But, yeah, I think that's gonna be. I'm not like, I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of, like, fan studies.
- [20:44]
Interviewer/Co-host
Articles come out in the next couple years that deal with the Disney adult as a term.
- [20:49]
Pete Kunze
Sure. And I believe that's something you say in your introduction. Right. Like, this is. Yeah, this is an imitation to a conversation. It's not the end of it. So I have a dissertation advisor kind of question for you, But I think it might benefit some of our Listeners who are early career scholars. How do we study Disney fandom? Like, what are some of the methods that were employed in this book? And what kinds of approaches did you find the contributors wanting to take and employing in their studies?
- [21:22]
Sabrina Mittermeier
I think some of the most obvious ways of studying fans, which is also why it's happening. The way it's happening is that a.
- [21:29]
Interviewer/Co-host
Lot of fandom happens online.
- [21:33]
Sabrina Mittermeier
So especially when it comes to studying like fan art or fan fiction, I mean, that's all online. That's all freely accessible to everyone who.
- [21:41]
Interviewer/Co-host
Has access to the Internet.
- [21:44]
Sabrina Mittermeier
So like, you can go on Tumblr, you can go on, you know, archive of our Own and just, you know, see people's work and directly see fan engagement. And yeah, I mean, the study of fan fiction is, I think, where mostly all started, like, because fan fiction was published obviously even long before the Internet and fanzines. And I mean, that's still one of the most common ways of doing fan.
- [22:13]
Interviewer/Co-host
Studies is studying fan fiction and trying to make sense of what kind of fanfiction is being written and why and how and so on.
- [22:20]
Sabrina Mittermeier
Same with that of fan art, especially when it comes to diversity. That's often sometimes one of the most.
- [22:26]
Interviewer/Co-host
Interesting ways of looking at race, for instance, because this one is like race bending in art. And what does that mean? And what does it mean when white people do and so on and so forth.
- [22:35]
Sabrina Mittermeier
And then obviously social media engagement, I think is a big factor in how people study all of this and especially.
- [22:45]
Interviewer/Co-host
As a bit like anti fandom stuff.
- [22:47]
Sabrina Mittermeier
Because, you know, go into the comment section, like go on Twitter or go into the comment section of articles and.
- [22:54]
Interviewer/Co-host
You will have it all there.
- [22:57]
Sabrina Mittermeier
And I mean, I think what was kind of missing and not just some Disney fan studies, one thing that is not done enough yet is going into.
- [23:06]
Interviewer/Co-host
Archives for that kind of thing.
- [23:07]
Sabrina Mittermeier
I do know a lot of people who study early fandom for things like.
- [23:12]
Interviewer/Co-host
Star Trek and so on and so forth.
- [23:13]
Sabrina Mittermeier
And I think that might also happen.
- [23:15]
Interviewer/Co-host
With Disney at some point, or we.
- [23:18]
Sabrina Mittermeier
Should try to make that happen with Disney, because actually fan production of Disney.
- [23:21]
Interviewer/Co-host
Stuff might be more easily accessible than the actual Disney stuff, as every Disney scholar knows that has tried to find Disney archival resources.
- [23:30]
Sabrina Mittermeier
Because I mean, Disney fandom has existed.
- [23:32]
Interviewer/Co-host
As long as the company has existed, which is a whole hundred years now.
- [23:37]
Sabrina Mittermeier
So that's that. But I think the fact that so much of the fandom happens online and.
- [23:44]
Interviewer/Co-host
Is easily accessible to everyone makes it.
- [23:47]
Sabrina Mittermeier
Also a cool thing for people who.
- [23:48]
Interviewer/Co-host
Do undergrad, thesis and so on for.
- [23:51]
Sabrina Mittermeier
Because they don't need to have fancy.
- [23:55]
Interviewer/Co-host
Archival access or get travel money for it.
- [23:58]
Pete Kunze
Yeah. So there's a lot of ways into these questions. And I think one of the things that comes through in your book is you kind of offer us these three sections and an interlude that think about kind of not only facets of Disney fandom, but questions that one might pursue. And in the first section you're examining, you and your co contributors are examining diversity in the Disney princess. So can you give us kind of an overview of that kind of conversation in Disney studies and some of the questions and concerns that come up in thinking about the Disney princesses in particular?
- [24:39]
Sabrina Mittermeier
I think the Disney princess is probably the most studied aspect of Disney, at least from cultural media studies point of view or gender studies. Quite obviously, that's at least the stuff that I've seen. My first big International Conference was PCA in 2016 and I remember there were surprising amount of people doing other stuff on Disney too. But the Disney princess on these conference programs even now is something that you see a lot. I think that doesn't mean that it's been studied to death. I think there's a lot still to be said about it also because there's more movies coming out or Disney has rebranded as a franchise quite a while ago and so there's always new things.
- [25:21]
Interviewer/Co-host
To say about it.
- [25:23]
Sabrina Mittermeier
But I think in this book now, I think there's where we are with Disney princess studies. There's like engagement with issues of race. There's engagement with issues of, as I mentioned, like race bending and fan art, for instance. What does that mean? Also things from the parks come into play because the Disney princesses are obviously also characters you can meet in the parks. And so I think we've moved to that sort of aspect of Disney princesses. And there's also like other engagement with it as a. As a veritable franchise and how it is marketed to women of all ages or like marketed to mothers and daughters, for instance.
- [26:08]
Interviewer/Co-host
So these are the kind of questions that I think are still very pertinent.
- [26:12]
Sabrina Mittermeier
And that's why they're in the book.
- [26:14]
Pete Kunze
Yeah, I believe I read an article a few years ago in Forbes that said the Disney princesses as a franchise are actually out earning Star wars and Marvel. Even though we think of them as maybe more visible or more profitable or more popular, it's still young children who want the Disney princess sheets and T shirts and backpacks and are going to see the movies that are. Are spending far more money than the Marvel fans.
- [26:46]
Interviewer/Co-host
Yeah.
- [26:46]
Sabrina Mittermeier
And I think the Misconception also is.
- [26:48]
Interviewer/Co-host
Oh, the Star wars and the Marvel is for the boys and the Disney princess is for the girls.
- [26:52]
Sabrina Mittermeier
And I mean, outside of the gender binary being a problem is also a problem to think of it like that because there's so many female Star Wars Marvel fans, but there's also a bunch of boys who are like Disney princesses. And I think Frozen has shown that.
- [27:08]
Interviewer/Co-host
Quite clearly as well, well, as.
- [27:12]
Pete Kunze
As someone of the generation that Aladdin was targeting, I can, I can attest that I was more of a Beauty and the Beast fan. But we'll save that for another podcast. So then you offer an interlude on representation, censorship and Disney plus featuring your own contribution. Can you tell us more about these this side of business studies?
- [27:35]
Sabrina Mittermeier
So, yeah, so my own contribution deals with exactly that problem of, like, what.
- [27:39]
Interviewer/Co-host
Do we do as queer people who.
- [27:40]
Sabrina Mittermeier
Like Disney when the company doesn't always like us back or has a very complicated relationship with us? I mean, that's mostly in there because that's the thing I wanted to say at that moment in time, and it's very short, but I think that's. That was just sort of like, this is what, what we're discussing most adamantly now. It was also the height of the.
- [28:04]
Interviewer/Co-host
Don'T say gay debate when I wrote this.
- [28:07]
Sabrina Mittermeier
But I think that that's, that's one of the most clear points of, like, we need to, you know, for conversation in the future. Like, this is where I want more.
- [28:14]
Interviewer/Co-host
People to do research on.
- [28:15]
Sabrina Mittermeier
And I know people are doing research.
- [28:17]
Interviewer/Co-host
On it right now. The issue of Disney and queer representation and queer fandom.
- [28:22]
Sabrina Mittermeier
Not that that's entirely new. There is already a great book by Sean Griffin as well. But I mean, it's so, so many years old. So I think this is always the thing with, like, oh, it's not been done because Disney is constantly changing and constantly evolving. So you can write an article on this every five years and you will have so many more things to say. And the other chapter that's in that section actually deals with Hamilton the Musical and Disney because it's obviously like the.
- [28:51]
Interviewer/Co-host
Live recording of it was put on Disney.
- [28:55]
Sabrina Mittermeier
And has to do with a.
- [28:56]
Interviewer/Co-host
Longer work relationship between then Manuel Miranda and Disney.
- [29:01]
Sabrina Mittermeier
And so it mostly deals with things.
- [29:03]
Interviewer/Co-host
Like what happens when this goes on Disney. There's like two cases of the effort.
- [29:08]
Sabrina Mittermeier
Being cut from the broadcast, things like that.
- [29:11]
Interviewer/Co-host
So it was just a really interesting.
- [29:13]
Sabrina Mittermeier
Sort of little outlook into, like, what.
- [29:15]
Interviewer/Co-host
Do these kind of business relationships actually.
- [29:17]
Sabrina Mittermeier
Do to Disney and how do you expand Disney as how we think of Disney. And I think you think Disney when you hear Hamilton, but at the same.
- [29:25]
Interviewer/Co-host
Time and actually this is how you can consume that now, unless you can.
- [29:29]
Sabrina Mittermeier
Go to a live performance of it.
- [29:33]
State Farm Advertiser
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- [30:03]
Pete Kunze
We find Vecna. We end this once and for all.
- [30:05]
Marshall Poe
Together on December 25th.
- [30:09]
Pete Kunze
We have a plan.
- [30:10]
Sabrina Mittermeier
It's a bit insane. Everyone in the he knows where we are. Watch out.
- [30:15]
Marshall Poe
Get ready for one last adventure.
- [30:18]
Pete Kunze
We stay true to ourselves, stay true to our friends, no matter the cost. Found you.
- [30:27]
Marshall Poe
Stranger Things Season 5, Volume 2 begins December 25, only on Netflix.
- [30:33]
Pete Kunze
Yeah, if we could return to your piece for a second. I was thinking as I was reading it, you, you have this kind of great call out of this kind of publicity of the first gay representation, right? And how it kind of comes up in Marvel or it comes up in Pixar. And yet for folks who know Sean Griffin's work or for other queer fans, right, they probably raised an eyebrow when Lefou was called the first gay representation because of perception practices. We see something like what Ursula meant to many young queer viewers or you know, these kinds of relationships that young girls may have had with the Disney princesses that were not necessarily authentication but may have been more amorous, right? So this notion of intention versus consumption becomes complicated, right? Because there were a series of pieces in the media where queer viewers were saying like, we've always seen this as queer. And in fact when you do the history, you see that there were queer creators behind the scenes who were bringing kind of camp aesthetic or maybe in jokes that would kind of intentionally and unintentionally kind of signal to those viewers with these texts meant or how they could be read.
- [31:54]
Sabrina Mittermeier
Yeah, for sure. And I think like, this is also part of like what my second monograph.
- [31:59]
Interviewer/Co-host
Is going to be in five plus years time.
- [32:01]
Sabrina Mittermeier
But like that engagement with, you know, queer coding and the practice of queer coding that obviously originates with like the years of the Hays Code and you know, outright censorship of like when you.
- [32:13]
Interviewer/Co-host
Couldn'T do explicit queer content because you couldn't get it past the censors, you.
- [32:18]
Sabrina Mittermeier
Had to find other Ways to put things in that were then part of the movie. And like, you know, Vito Rosso's work on this, like the Salute Closet, where.
- [32:26]
Interviewer/Co-host
He kind of unearthed things that are.
- [32:28]
Sabrina Mittermeier
Essentially queer coded texts and. And that kind of constant tension. Also, like, there's so many people who are like, adamant about, like, it has to be explicit queer representation for this to matter. And I agree with it to a certain degree because obviously, in terms of industry practices, yes, because, you know, it does actually sell and people need to understand itself. And it's the only way you're ever.
- [32:54]
Interviewer/Co-host
Gonna change any of these studios to make this.
- [32:57]
Sabrina Mittermeier
And then also then maybe cast queer.
- [32:59]
Interviewer/Co-host
Actors and so on and so forth.
- [33:01]
Sabrina Mittermeier
But on the other hand, there's a.
- [33:03]
Interviewer/Co-host
Great book by Melanie Conan where she.
- [33:04]
Sabrina Mittermeier
Argues, oh, you know, but queer coding still has value. Like, there's still nuances to things and that still matters. Like, it doesn't mean that it's, you know, just bad. Like the queer coding in Disney, as.
- [33:17]
Interviewer/Co-host
You said, like, sort of infamous.
- [33:18]
Sabrina Mittermeier
It's a lot of villains and everyone is like, oh, of course the vil.
- [33:22]
Interviewer/Co-host
Gay coded or queer coded.
- [33:23]
Sabrina Mittermeier
And it's like, yes, but because the animator was gay, you know, like, what does that do? Like, does it make that automatically bad? Because someone was trying to, you know, impart something of his own into the work. And there's obviously, you, you're the expert of that. But like Howard Ashman writing so much.
- [33:42]
Interviewer/Co-host
Stuff that's sort of infused with queer.
- [33:43]
Sabrina Mittermeier
Sensibility for mostly female characters and, you know, what does that do? So I think that's all of these concepts and there's obviously the opposite concept of queer baiting. When then companies realize, oh, it sells, but we still don't want to give it to you. Which is where you end up with like Disney's first gay character because they have sold the first gay character about 10 times now without ever actually contributing, doing anything meaningful with it necessarily. I think I like LeFou in the live Action, but, like, he was already.
- [34:20]
Interviewer/Co-host
Gay before we knew.
- [34:21]
Sabrina Mittermeier
Like, we didn't really need to confirm it. I like to see it confirmed, but at the same time, like, it's not super integral to the story either. And I think I haven't seen.
- [34:30]
Interviewer/Co-host
What is it?
- [34:30]
Sabrina Mittermeier
Like Strange New Worlds.
- [34:33]
Interviewer/Co-host
I'm saying Star Trek show instead, but.
- [34:35]
Sabrina Mittermeier
Like the new Disney film that they didn't market and it's now very successful in Disney apparently as a gay character that's much more fleshed out and sort.
- [34:45]
Interviewer/Co-host
Of integral to the story.
- [34:47]
Sabrina Mittermeier
And so, yeah, I think that's that's also going to be interesting how that's going to develop down the line where the lesbian character was in Lightyear, that was cut before Pixar employees were like, they cut that. They made us cut that. And I think that's a very interesting.
- [35:08]
Interviewer/Co-host
Discussion, too, about, like, artists and companies, really.
- [35:12]
Pete Kunze
In the next section of the volume, you move into talking about the theme parks, which is an area that you have studied a great length and made significant contributions to. And, of course, the theme parks are not just Disney World and Disneyland, but there are hosts in France and in Japan and two in China. Well, Hong Kong and in Shanghai. Right. How does this enrich our understanding of Disney fans? To move not just to consider not only the relationship with, let's say, traditional legacy media texts, but to consider the theme parks. Although, of course, I think we can argue the theme parks and media, too.
- [35:51]
Sabrina Mittermeier
Yeah, I think, for me, and obviously that's my bias, but I think the theme parks are some of the most.
- [35:56]
Interviewer/Co-host
Interesting sites when it comes to fandom.
- [35:58]
Sabrina Mittermeier
Because it's constant engagement with these parks and in constant engagement with company practices. Like there's a price hike or there's a change to how you can park hop, so go between the parks when you have a certain ticket, or, you know, every little decision that the company makes is debated on social media every day. And I don't think that happens to that, like, small degree with the foams. Like, it's just, you know, it's because people feel very close to these spaces. A lot of the people who live.
- [36:36]
Interviewer/Co-host
Close to any of the parks, you.
- [36:37]
Sabrina Mittermeier
Know, they're usually annual pass holders.
- [36:39]
Interviewer/Co-host
They sometimes go there multiple times a week.
- [36:42]
Sabrina Mittermeier
And then obviously through that, they also engage with the films because the films have representations in the parks through rides.
- [36:49]
Interviewer/Co-host
Or parades or shows or whatever, or character meets.
- [36:53]
Sabrina Mittermeier
But I think it's such a rich area of fan studies because of that, because it's just, you know, this constant engagement. And this is also, I think the company has to listen much more closely to its customers. Because with films, you know, you make a film several years, you put it out, you get a box office, you maybe now put it on streaming, sort of like, I think streaming. I don't know if that makes it easier for them to measure, obviously. Yes. But I think that's also sort of obfuscated in so many ways.
- [37:22]
Interviewer/Co-host
Like, what is the success of a streaming?
- [37:25]
Sabrina Mittermeier
How do I know if it's just a kid watching the same film over and over and over again, you know, all of these things. But I think with the parts, they very clearly get feedback immediately. And they've had to walk back some things because it was so unpopular. The Walt Disney Company just put out two massive shows in Walt Disney World, like one of the Nighttime spectaculars two years ago, and replaced them again with the shows they had before because they were so unpopular. So I don't think you see that happen because once a film is done, it's done. Which ironic is also Walt Disney liked.
- [38:01]
Interviewer/Co-host
About the parks that he could always mess with them and do changes.
- [38:05]
Sabrina Mittermeier
But I think it's the same for the fans.
- [38:08]
Pete Kunze
Yeah, I was thinking as I was reading that section and learning more about things like disneybounding. Right. On the one hand, Disney has this investment in inclusion. On the other hand, the parks are expensive. As a working class kid growing up in the United States, our family did the pilgrimage to Disney World once. And I got the impression at the time that my parents felt like we have to do this to be good, you know, good parents to take our kids to Disney World. And like, in some ways we were kind of over it because I think I was already 12 or 13 and, you know, it was really, really expensive. And, you know, when I was reading the scholarship on theme parks, you know, part of the argument that gets made as you know, is, you know, when you pay or set a price on those theme parks, and of course, the price of the theme parks famously jumped in the 80s and the 90s compared to where it had been proportionally before. It's not just about letting people in, it's also about keeping people out. So this is a very long way of me asking, how does the theme parks kind of stage this notion of who gets to be a Disney fan and the appropriate ways of being a Disney fan?
- [39:20]
Sabrina Mittermeier
Yeah, I think that's sort of the core question, which is also why it became a core question for my first monograph about, like, class being a central.
- [39:29]
Interviewer/Co-host
Factor in access to Disney parks.
- [39:32]
Sabrina Mittermeier
From the beginning, actually, even though you're right, like the, the sort of, you know, who can afford to go definitely.
- [39:37]
Interviewer/Co-host
Changed over the 80s and 90s, which also has to do with how this US society or the global financial market changed.
- [39:44]
Sabrina Mittermeier
But it's. I think, yeah, it. They stage so much of it as inclusion and letting people in. And obviously the, the body of people who go to the parks has diversified because the, the American middle and upper.
- [39:59]
Interviewer/Co-host
Class as diversified in terms of race or in terms of sexuality and gender.
- [40:05]
Sabrina Mittermeier
But on the other hand, as you said, some people can maybe afford to go once in their lives, but the people who Go all the time. They have money. And that's just something that's sort of brushed aside, I think Disney knows, but they're still trying to sell it as a. They're sometimes still trying to sell it as an everyman experience. Although I would also argue that I've stepped away from that. They don't even care that much anymore.
- [40:33]
Interviewer/Co-host
They've started to cater a lot more.
- [40:34]
Sabrina Mittermeier
Obviously to a VIP crowd as well.
- [40:38]
Interviewer/Co-host
But also to people who can afford things.
- [40:42]
Sabrina Mittermeier
And obviously when you take that to other countries that vary slightly, but on the whole, those are expensive vacations. And for many people, it's a once in a lifetime thing. In some of the international parks, maybe.
- [40:57]
Interviewer/Co-host
You go for a day, but it's still expensive.
- [41:01]
Sabrina Mittermeier
It's a bit easier, I think, than.
- [41:03]
Interviewer/Co-host
For instance, Florida, of course.
- [41:05]
Sabrina Mittermeier
But yeah, it's become sort of a.
- [41:09]
Interviewer/Co-host
Boutique experience in so many ways.
- [41:11]
Sabrina Mittermeier
And I think this is also the.
- [41:12]
Interviewer/Co-host
Audience the company caters to.
- [41:14]
Sabrina Mittermeier
So when they talk about inclusion, that's.
- [41:16]
Interviewer/Co-host
Usually a factor that they don't want to talk about.
- [41:21]
Pete Kunze
And as we move into the final section of the book, the focus shifts to how fan labor gets monetized by the company. And if I remember correctly, the whole Disney parenthesis phenomenon as a franchise in the company is fairly recent. Right. It only happens about 15 years ago. And I think Andy Mooney, who was responsible for it, says that he was at some kind of Disney event. Maybe he was at the parks and he saw little girls and makeshift princess costumes. And he was like, why aren't we producing princess costumes? Right. It's like the company sees what young, young girls are doing and it shapes business practices. Right? It shapes like we should be catering to what fans are doing on their own. Catering being a nice way of saying, you know, exploiting, formalizing, monetizing. So this is another long way of asking, what do you mean by fan labor for those who aren't in fan studies? And how has Disney in recent times been engaging with fan labor and even exploiting fan labor?
- [42:29]
Sabrina Mittermeier
Yeah, I think fan labor for me encompasses everything that fans produce. And they obviously produce that for their own joy or for their friends and other fans joy. But, you know, that's fan fiction, as I said, that's fan art. That's also cosplay. So a lot of people make their own costumes. Some people even make their own toys, you know, like customized funkos, you know, that kind of thing. So I think, yeah, there's a lot of labor actually happening from fans, fan.
- [43:01]
Interviewer/Co-host
Videos, all of this stuff.
- [43:03]
Sabrina Mittermeier
And obviously, yeah, the company starts to notice.
- [43:07]
Interviewer/Co-host
And not just Disney, but like Disney also especially starts to notice things like.
- [43:11]
Sabrina Mittermeier
You said, like oh, you know, apparently people like to dress up as characters. Why are we not selling them the costumes to do so? And maybe not just for Halloween. So yeah, they started selling Disney princess dresses in the parks, but also with Disney bounding, which you know is a form of Disney specific cosplay because the parks have a policy that as an adult you're not allowed to dress up.
- [43:34]
Interviewer/Co-host
In full costume costume when you're in.
- [43:35]
Sabrina Mittermeier
The park so you won't get confused with the actual Disney characters. And that's been sort of interesting how the company has also started to circumvent their own rules to monetize on people obviously wanting to do that. So if you go to a Disney Parks Halloween party you're allowed to dress up even though there's also tons of.
- [44:00]
Interviewer/Co-host
Characters in the park.
- [44:03]
Sabrina Mittermeier
Or now with like Star Wars Galaxy's Edge the company is selling fairly high.
- [44:08]
Interviewer/Co-host
End cosplay to you.
- [44:09]
Sabrina Mittermeier
Like they're selling really cool like Star.
- [44:11]
Interviewer/Co-host
Wars costumes and props to you, but.
- [44:14]
Sabrina Mittermeier
Then you're not allowed to wear them in the parks. And I've been waiting for them to kind of loosen this rule with the things they're actually putting out because it's kind of silly. This is where you want to wear them. You want to wear your costume in Star Wars Galaxy's Edge and then take pictures and put them on social media. So I don't know what's going to happen with that. But also they've opened this like inks crazy expensive boutique experience hotel of the Galactic Starcruiser where I think they're trying to do this for like people who can afford to. For several thousand dollars a day or night you can do a full on role playing experience in the Galactic Starcruiser. And I'm pretty sure most people buy.
- [44:54]
Interviewer/Co-host
The costumes before they do this if they don't already have cosplay.
- [44:59]
Sabrina Mittermeier
And and yeah, Disney Burning exists because you then like this is this to circumvent the rule as well. That just means you sort of dress in like normal quote unquote street clothes but that sort of have like the.
- [45:11]
Interviewer/Co-host
Color scheme of a specific character.
- [45:16]
Sabrina Mittermeier
And people do this. And yeah, and I think and Disney knows about this now. So they're now selling merchandise that's specifically geared at Disney founders. So they know that. And this is sort of the process.
- [45:28]
Interviewer/Co-host
Of all of these things keep happening.
- [45:29]
Sabrina Mittermeier
You know, like fans do something, they produce their own stuff for it or maybe third party companies are starting to.
- [45:36]
Interviewer/Co-host
Produce stuff and is starting to make money.
- [45:38]
Sabrina Mittermeier
And then business is like, why?
- [45:39]
Interviewer/Co-host
Why are we not doing this?
- [45:40]
Sabrina Mittermeier
And sometimes they're quite good at it.
- [45:42]
Interviewer/Co-host
And sometimes they suck.
- [45:44]
Sabrina Mittermeier
Sometimes they put on horrendous merchandise that, you know, if they had ever talked to fans about it, we would have told that this doesn't work. And I think they need to actually almost get better at that. I think they need to start hiring.
- [45:58]
Interviewer/Co-host
More people who were first adamant fans. I think they would actually make a lot more money if they did that. But we'll see.
- [46:05]
Pete Kunze
Yeah. And. And this whole idea of posting on social media. Right. Speaks to the way that fans become uncompensated promoters, right?
- [46:14]
Interviewer/Co-host
Yeah.
- [46:15]
Pete Kunze
And I think this comes through nicely in the interviews you included with actors, actual Disney fan influencers, or prominent Disney fans. Can you, can you talk about the decision to include that and what you feel that adds to the volume?
- [46:29]
Sabrina Mittermeier
So it, you know, the decision to include it basically comes from the fact that the book series this is a part of does this lot. So they do, they do usually like highlight fan practitioners in the series.
- [46:42]
Interviewer/Co-host
So I was like, that makes sense.
- [46:44]
Sabrina Mittermeier
And so the people I chose to interview also, it was very, you know, I wanted to interview people that weren't.
- [46:52]
Interviewer/Co-host
Just white, heterosexual cisgender people.
- [46:56]
Sabrina Mittermeier
Like a lot of blonde women do a lot of Disney influencing. Like that was. That wasn't the, you know, target demographic that I thought had interesting things to say about what it's like to be a Disney fan right now. And so I interviewed Victoria Wade, who's black, we're young Disney influencer, and she does a lot of cosplay, she does a lot of Disney bounding.
- [47:22]
Interviewer/Co-host
She's also worked for the parks before that.
- [47:25]
Sabrina Mittermeier
So a lot of people who end.
- [47:26]
Interviewer/Co-host
Up being Disney influencers, CM so cast members of the past.
- [47:31]
Sabrina Mittermeier
So I think there's like a multitude of, you know, different perspectives. And obviously also the racism you endure as a person of color that's a Disney influencer, and how that differs, you know, from a white person doing this. And so I think it's just interesting perspectives from people who are also not like, you know, also academics. I mean, I think most of the scholars who wrote for this volume would also call themselves Disney fans. But then we already have that filter built in of like, this is how I see this now, through this lens of having done fan studies or cultural studies or whatever for a long time. But if you talk to someone who's an influencer who also doesn't write scholarly.
- [48:14]
Interviewer/Co-host
Articles on their own practice I think that's a different point of view, just clearly.
- [48:19]
Sabrina Mittermeier
And so, yeah, it was a way of engaging with important issues like systemic racism in the fandom, but also a.
- [48:28]
Interviewer/Co-host
Way of just getting a different perspective.
- [48:30]
Pete Kunze
Excellent, Excellent. As we head into the home stretch, I wanted to ask you, what do you see as the future or futures of Disney fan studies? What kind of work do you see coming out of this volume? What kind of work would you like to see that you're not seeing yet or not seeing enough of?
- [48:51]
Sabrina Mittermeier
Yeah, as I said, more engagement, I think, with queer fans and sort of the complicated relationship. Because what's there is good, but it's.
- [48:59]
Interviewer/Co-host
Like, there's so much stuff happening.
- [49:01]
Sabrina Mittermeier
But I also know that there's stuff.
- [49:03]
Interviewer/Co-host
Coming out on this, so that's sort of a spoiler. People are working on that topic.
- [49:09]
Sabrina Mittermeier
But I think also there's been a lot more engagement with Disney parks in.
- [49:16]
Interviewer/Co-host
The last few years, and I see a lot more of that happening. I mean, the people who contributed to this volume keep writing their own books and keep publishing articles on it.
- [49:25]
Sabrina Mittermeier
So I know there will be more of this. But also see people who aren't in.
- [49:29]
Interviewer/Co-host
The book do this right now because.
- [49:31]
Sabrina Mittermeier
It'S, again, it's such a rich area.
- [49:32]
Interviewer/Co-host
Of fan studies and it's so underexplored still, and there's so much you can.
- [49:36]
Sabrina Mittermeier
Write about, so very much expect that. The other thing, as I said would love to see is more like historical engagement with Disney fandom and people who.
- [49:45]
Interviewer/Co-host
Try to dig into the archives and.
- [49:47]
Sabrina Mittermeier
I don't know, write on all the Mickey Mouse merchandise from the 30s and how fan engagement with that work. I mean, I think that one of the only things I know that does this kind of stuff is maybe for, like, the Crockett craze in the 50s, like the Davy Crockett merchants that was so popular. But at the same time, I don't think there's like, a full engagement with that yet either.
- [50:11]
Interviewer/Co-host
And how, like, you know, the boomer kids basically engaged with all of this. And that's fan studies.
- [50:20]
Sabrina Mittermeier
So I think that would be really.
- [50:23]
Interviewer/Co-host
Cool to sort of have that more historical perspective on it.
- [50:26]
Sabrina Mittermeier
Which was also the only criticism I.
- [50:27]
Interviewer/Co-host
Got in the review reports.
- [50:29]
Sabrina Mittermeier
It was much of a criticism. It was just someone saying, and actually.
- [50:33]
Interviewer/Co-host
You can probably reveal this was John.
- [50:35]
Sabrina Mittermeier
Will saying, hey, why wouldn't we have more historical outlooks? Which is not surprising because both of us come from, like, cultural history and.
- [50:42]
Interviewer/Co-host
American studies points of views. But I totally agree, like, this is.
- [50:46]
Sabrina Mittermeier
A gap in this both.
- [50:47]
Interviewer/Co-host
But it's also a gap in the oval research.
- [50:50]
Pete Kunze
Yeah. And one of the. It's a hard nut to crack, too, right? I mean, how do we kind of get into those. Those historical practices that may not necessarily have been archived in the way that other aspects of Disney culture were archived, but it also opens up to new methods. Right? Like oral histories and.
- [51:11]
Interviewer/Co-host
Yeah, and there's.
- [51:12]
Sabrina Mittermeier
I mean, there's a whole generation of, like, older, even older baby boomers who.
- [51:18]
Interviewer/Co-host
Still go to the parks, who still go to events like D23 Expo, who.
- [51:22]
Sabrina Mittermeier
You know, I've met and become friends with, who sit in homes full of Disney memorabilia. So I think this is now the moment where you should talk to these people, because a lot of them will unfortunately die or, you know, become maybe, you know, get dementia, and you can't interview them anymore.
- [51:41]
Interviewer/Co-host
Any of the usual problems you have with doing oral history. So I think, actually, if you want to look into Disney fandom of the 50s or even earlier, you need to do it now.
- [51:52]
Pete Kunze
Yeah, absolutely. So my final question for you is the general softball we always throw at the end, which is, what are you currently working on and are you doing future research on further research on Disney fan practices, or is your attention currently elsewhere?
- [52:12]
Sabrina Mittermeier
My attention is sort of elsewhere. I mean, I still. I will probably never stop doing Disney.
- [52:16]
Interviewer/Co-host
Studies because that's just what I, you.
- [52:19]
Sabrina Mittermeier
Know, what people ask me about what.
- [52:21]
Interviewer/Co-host
The media wants me to talk to.
- [52:25]
Sabrina Mittermeier
And I do. I run the Disney studies area at PCA every year.
- [52:29]
Interviewer/Co-host
So that won't stop, hopefully, for a.
- [52:30]
Sabrina Mittermeier
Bit, because we only started it last year, but generally. So I'm supposed to write a second monograph, and I want to write it on the idea of unmade queer television.
- [52:42]
Interviewer/Co-host
So there's a few people who do unmade studies. You're one of them.
- [52:46]
Sabrina Mittermeier
So looking at not produced, you know, not produced media, mostly to television films and scripts that weren't filmed for whatever reason, or cuts, I see it as a broader thing of, like, a larger.
- [53:00]
Interviewer/Co-host
Issue of censorship, especially when it comes to queerness.
- [53:04]
Sabrina Mittermeier
And I look at it for the US And Germany. I just haven't really progressed with this.
- [53:09]
Interviewer/Co-host
Project for several reasons, one of them.
- [53:11]
Sabrina Mittermeier
Being too many other things. And now that I finally have more time, because I've wrapped up so many of these other things, I've been on sick leave for a whole semester, so that's been stalling that. But that's the thing I hope to get back into. And I'm excited because I get to do a lot of cool archival research.
- [53:30]
Interviewer/Co-host
At places like the Writers Guild foundation and so on and so forth.
- [53:33]
Sabrina Mittermeier
So that's what I'm doing. There's also still a volume coming out, but that's almost wrapped up.
- [53:38]
Interviewer/Co-host
We're just waiting for Reefer reports and hope they are good to us on the musical history of New York City.
- [53:47]
Sabrina Mittermeier
That I interviewed Anthony Rapp for. So he goes there and lake rent.
- [53:52]
Interviewer/Co-host
For Star Trek Discovery.
- [53:55]
Sabrina Mittermeier
And yeah, other than that, I really.
- [53:57]
Interviewer/Co-host
Should be writing the second book bit. Yeah. And I will probably start blogging about TV now to get back into writing and mostly like my obsession of Tatla, so.
- [54:11]
Pete Kunze
Well, we wish you all the best and hopefully when in due time when the volume's done, you'll come on and talk about it again.
- [54:19]
Interviewer/Co-host
Sure.
- [54:20]
Pete Kunze
So thank you so much for your time today, Sabrina. The book is Fan Disney, available now from Intellect Books. This is Pete Kunzee and this has been new books and film on the New Books Network. Thank you for listening and we hope you'll join us again next time.