Podcast Summary: New Books Network – Sarah F. Derbew, "Untangling Blackness in Greek Antiquity" (Cambridge UP, 2022)

Date: December 1, 2025
Host: Amanda Joyce Hall
Guest: Dr. Sarah F. Derbew

Episode Overview

This episode features an in-depth discussion between host Amanda Joyce Hall and Dr. Sarah F. Derbew, Assistant Professor of Classics at Stanford University, about Derbew’s groundbreaking book, Untangling Blackness in Greek Antiquity. The conversation explores the complexities of Black representation in antiquity, the methodological innovations of Dr. Derbew’s work, and the intersections of Classical Studies with Black Studies. Listeners are guided through the book’s themes, case studies, and theoretical frameworks, punctuated by reflections on race, canon formation, and the politics of scholarly language.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

Dr. Derbew’s Intellectual Journey into Classics

• Early Influences & Educational Background

  • Dr. Derbew, raised in Brooklyn, began her engagement with classical languages early, influenced by her family’s educational values and her brother’s experience in an enrichment program ("Prep for Prep").
  • She began studying Latin at age 12 and Greek in her twenties, later realizing how formative these experiences were.
  • Quote:

    “The earlier you start these languages, the more facility you have… Having that exposure at such an early age… was really powerful.” (04:53)

• Graduate School Turning Point

  • Abroad in Rome, she learned the academic necessity of ancient Greek, eventually undertaking an intensive program that shaped her approach to classical studies.
  • Her awareness of sparse but potent references to Black people in ancient Greek texts sparked her dissertation interest.
  • Quote:

    “I’m seeing some references to Black people in these texts. I’m not always seeing it discussed in ways that I feel like are responsible or rigorous. So let me start trying to find ways to engage with this work.” (07:24)

The Origin and Structure of "Untangling Blackness in Greek Antiquity"

• Genesis of the Book

  • Began as a dissertation focused on instances of “Ethiopians” in Herodotus.
  • Encouraged by her advisor, she broadened her focus to include critical race theory, Black Studies, and performance studies.
  • Developed the “stages” method—history, theater, satire, the novel, and art history—to analyze Blackness as a thematic and performative concept.
  • Quote:

    “If you want to focus on Blackness and antiquity... think about critical race theory as a really important foundational jumping off point.” (09:26)
    “I was very much indebted to performance studies… it freed me from thinking about having to somehow notate all of the thousands of instances in which Blackness appears… instead choose almost case studies…” (11:02)

• Interdisciplinarity & Sources

  • Uses both literary and material culture (e.g. ancient pottery, museum curation).
  • British Museum experience: moving through exhibitions of Greek, Egyptian, and African antiquities influenced her analysis of how Africa is spatially and conceptually compartmentalized within Western narratives.
  • Genoform cups: dual-faced drinking cups, one side Black, one brown, used as a lens to “read” artistic performance and racial representation.
  • Quote:

    “I have a mixed media project that I’ve delivered to the world… I started realizing how important it is to treat objects, to treat sources as historical relics in their own right.” (18:03)

• Entanglement

  • Inspired by Gwendolyn Brooks, Derbew’s entanglement methodology reflects Black feminist joy and the creation of new scholarly canons.
  • Quote:

    “I really wanted to signal that the people that... inspire my work are the ones who are so unapologetically pro-Black…” (16:00)

Influence of Black Studies

• Foundational Theorists

  • Derbew draws from Saidiya Hartman (“everyday performances” as resistance) and Daphne Brooks (performance as subversion).
  • Quote:

    “This idea of everyday performances not needing to have a stage… really helped to free me from feeling like… I can use this metaphor.” (22:55)

• Contemporary Resonance

  • Emphasizes the importance of not conflating contemporary and ancient notions of Blackness, while acknowledging the productive theoretical bridges between the two.
  • Highlights recent scholarship such as Tiya Miles, illustrating creative ways to think "through Blackness, with Blackness, along Blackness." (26:00)

Methodological Precision and Terminology

• Orthography of Blackness

  • Makes a careful distinction between ‘Black’ (uppercase, modern identity) and ‘black’ (lowercase, descriptor in ancient texts).
  • Aims to be transparent and precise in nomenclature, understanding that language and its political implications change over time.
  • Quote:

    “Lowercase B is Blackness in Herodotus’ world. Uppercase B is Blackness in Daphne Brooks’s world. Really trying to let the reader know that I want to be responsible…” (30:05)

• Laying Out Terms for Accessibility

  • Responded to her copy editor’s suggestion to include a note on nomenclature for clarity and reference.
  • Quote:

    “If you also want this book to be something that people can pick up and automatically know, this is something that I can use as a reference...” (27:50)

Case Studies and Chapter Highlights

Artistic Representations: The "Genoform" Cups

[35:31]

• Genoform cups found in Greek contexts often depict faces of different races side by side, possibly used during symposia (drinking parties).
• Mainstream academic and museum descriptions often impose modern color hierarchies; Derbew suggests a more nuanced reading rooted in ancient context.
• Quote:

  “For a lot of descriptions of these cups... one side was considered beautiful and the other side considered a caricature or ugly... But I found that this was a very unfair way to read these texts…” (37:21)

Theater and Performance: Aeschylus’s "Suppliants"

[40:07]

• Play centers on 50 Black Egyptian women seeking refuge in Greece.
• Challenges both ancient and modern assumptions about the fixity of racial/ethnic identity.
• Greeks distinguish these women by clothing, not skin color—a profound complexity.
• Quote:

  “There is no distinction between their skin color being black; therefore, they can’t be Greek... there is something to be said for the creativity of the people living... to imagine someone who's Egyptian and Black and Greek and to have those three coexist.” (42:02)

Greek Historiography: Herodotus’s "Histories"

[44:57]

• Herodotus’s multi-layered narrative gives Ethiopians multiple attributes—Blackness, beauty, semi-divinity, political shrewdness—contradicting later monolithic views.
• Critiques “hellenocentrism” (putting Greece at the center), advocating for a multi-perspective reading.
• Quote:

  “Being represented as black in the text was not a monolithic identity. You are black and other things.” (48:36)

Satire and Black Athenians: Lucian

[50:24]

• Lucian’s satirical texts lampoon all boundaries, including race/ethnicity. Depicts athletic, dark-skinned Athenians, subverting modern presumptions of whiteness in classical antiquity.
• Satire as a space for critical questioning.
• Quote:

  “This is an example of Black Athenians... their Blackness was something that was beneficial. It helped to protect them from the sun.” (52:58)

Chromatic Manipulation and Passing: The "Aethiopica" Novel

[54:47]

• In Heliodorus’s novel, the Ethiopian princess is white-skinned due to a myth about conception, and must darken her skin to “pass” as Ethiopian—a reversal of modern racial passing.
• Explores the implications and contextual differences from modern notions of "passing.”
• Quote:

  “It’s one of the earliest instances that we have of Blackness constituting cultural privilege in this text... the fact that her skin color is white makes it so hard for her to pass as Ethiopian.” (56:00)

Methodological Outlook

• Dr. Derbew underscores the importance of radical hesitation—pausing to question assumptions before interpreting ancient racial depictions.
• Quote (attribution to Siga Taganti):

  “Radical hesitation.” (39:47)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On inventing scholarly canons:

  “We can create our own canons.” – Amanda Joyce Hall (21:03)

• On the importance of critique:

  “Humans have blind spots that sometimes they don’t always know about. So, I wanted to find a really respectful, responsible way to say I disagree with some of these terms.” – Dr. Derbew (38:12)

• On Black feminist foundation:

  “This is a book by someone who loves Blackness.” – Dr. Derbew (15:31)

What’s Next for Dr. Derbew? [59:26]

• Currently co-editing a historical reader tentatively titled Classics and Race, emphasizing inclusion of texts outside the traditional canon.
• Writing an essay drawing connections between ancient Greek and modern Ethiopian satire.
• Continuing to push for ancient African studies as a core part of classics.

How to Follow Dr. Sarah F. Derbew [63:15]

• Website: sarahderbew.com
• Twitter: @blackantiquity
• Book Discount Code (Cambridge UP): UBGA2022

Timestamps for Important Segments

• [03:32] — Dr. Derbew’s family and educational background
• [08:57] — Origins of Untangling Blackness in Greek Antiquity
• [15:03] — Gwendolyn Brooks & methodological entanglement
• [22:16] — Black Studies’ influence: Hartman, Brooks, Miles
• [27:34] — Terminology, orthography, and stakes of language
• [35:31] — Artistic renditions: genderform cups
• [40:07] — Theater: Aeschylus and Black Greek identity
• [44:57] — Herodotus on Ethiopia in antiquity
• [50:24] — Black Athenians & satire
• [54:47] — Skin color manipulation & the Ethiopian novel
• [59:26] — Upcoming projects

Conclusion

This episode is an accessible yet rigorous introduction to Dr. Derbew’s Untangling Blackness in Greek Antiquity, blending personal narrative, sharp scholarly analysis, and engagement with Black Studies. Dr. Derbew’s insights invite listeners to grapple with representation, historiography, and the power of language, while also offering new methodological tools for interrogating race and identity in the ancient world.