Podcast Summary:

New Books Network – Interview with Sarah Ruden, author of "Vergil: The Poet's Life" (Yale UP, 2023)
Host: Benjamin Phillips
Date: November 28, 2025

Episode Overview

In this episode, host Benjamin Phillips speaks with author and translator Sarah Ruden about her recent biography of the Roman poet Virgil, part of Yale University Press's Ancient Lives series. The conversation explores the difficulties of writing about such an enigmatic figure, Virgil's artistry and personal life, the challenges of literary biography, and how Virgil has been perceived and misinterpreted over the centuries. Ruden shares insights from her decades-long engagement with Virgil and classical literature, her method as a biographer, and the larger implications for how we approach the ancient world.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Motivation and Context for the Biography

• Sarah Ruden's Background (02:43–03:12):
  • Ruden describes her forty years’ joy in classics and her sense of privilege in writing about Virgil.
  • The biography pairs with her recent translation—this combination being a first for her.
• Inspiration and the Ancient Lives Series (03:24–04:43):
  • The project was prompted by Yale's Ancient Lives series, aiming to humanize iconic ancient figures.
  • Ruden: "These books are allowing us to consider commonalities that we have with the ancient world and to consider the real human personalities of great minds. And I think that's, that is very helpful, especially at this political moment." [04:20]
• The Importance for Today (04:45–05:53):
  • Ruden observes that modern political debates often hinge on interpretation of the past, making it vital to humanize foundational figures.

The Limitations and Dilemmas of Virgilian Biography

• Sparse Evidence and Overcoming "Obstacles" (06:43–08:28):
  • Virgil is iconic but, Ruden says, "it's almost nothing but obstacles." He is revered as a "literary saint," but hard evidence about his life is scant.
  • She describes the layers of myth, appropriation, and ideological projection that obscure the real Virgil.
• Methodological Approach (08:42–11:41):
  • As a translator, Ruden asserts her focus is on Virgil’s language and artistry.
  • She argues for considering Virgil foremost as an artist:
    "I think he deserves consideration... as an artist, as an artist of words... we have lots and lots of evidence that this is a role that he filled with some zest." [10:58]
• Reading Between Persona and Person (11:50–15:12):
  • The challenge in separating authentic experience from poetic pose:
    • Ruden: "It's impossible to speak with real confidence about that... we're always speculating when we talk about an author..." [13:15]
    • She defends the notion of "literary genius" as significant and shaping an author's life.

Virgil’s Personality and the Path to Artistry

• Artistry and 'Sickliness' (15:12–19:43):
  • Ruden references other literary figures, noting that ill-health or "sickliness" was common and could even aid a career, as with Elizabeth Barrett Browning.
  • For Virgil, rumors of delicate health may have helped him carve out contemplative solitude.
• Patronage and Power (20:06–24:41):
  • Ruden analyzes forms of literary patronage, comparing Augustus' strategic generosity with later eras.
  • Virgil benefited from Augustus’ selective, hands-off approach which allowed creativity but also appended political expectations.
  • She draws a parallel to Zora Neale Hurston: “Zora Neale Hurston wrote a, a fake tribute to her, her patron... and we have, I think, similar things going on with Virgil." [22:42]
• Literary Irony & Subterfuge (24:41–27:19):
  • Virgil used irony and double entendre, especially in early works, sometimes at the expense of less-talented poetic contemporaries.
  • Ruden notes it's "mind blowing" how earlier classicists missed Virgil's tongue-in-cheek references.

Virgil’s Early Life and Identity

• Fragmentary Biographical Evidence (28:43–31:20):
  • Discussing ancient sources (Suetonius, Donatus), Ruden explains we know disproportionately more about Virgil's youth than his adulthood.
  • She finds it noteworthy that Virgil never seems to have had a stable home as an adult—remarkable for an elite Roman.
• Sexuality and Alienation (31:34–34:47):
  • Ruden suggests Virgil was "a gay man... on the far, far end of the Kinsey scale." His inability to form a normative Roman household contributed to his rootlessness and may have deepened the loneliness seen in his poetry.
  • This, Ruden argues, colors the prevalent mood of loss in the Aeneid and other works.

Life in Mantua, the Countryside, and Virgil’s Rural Longing

• Bees and Rural Roots (34:47–39:20):
  • Virgil's pastoral upbringing and his family’s bee-keeping are unusually well documented.
  • The expansiveness given to bee-keeping in the Georgics and its connection to tragedy (the Orpheus myth) show how Virgil’s attachment to the countryside intertwined with themes of loss and yearning.
  • Ruden: "This is the happiest life imaginable. ... Virgil envies him." [39:09]
• Ambivalence toward the Intellectual Life (40:42–43:43):
  • Virgil’s philosophical studies in Naples seemed more social than serious; poetry was his main focus, and he was not a natural prodigy but a determined experimenter.

Artistic Revolution and the Unique Augustan Environment

• Poetic Innovation (43:43–44:50):
  • Ruden and Phillips marvel at Virgil’s revolutionary transformation of Latin verse, making hexameter work almost magically in a new way.
• Augustan Patronage (44:50–48:43):
  • Augustus' extraordinary ability as political and artistic patron fostered an environment where poets like Virgil, Horace, Livy, and Ovid thrived.
  • Ruden: "He had a great respect for their literary ambitions. And I don't know of another literary patron who has really achieved this." [47:23]

The Question of Ideology—Praise or Subversion?

• Misplaced Political Focus (48:51–54:44):
  • Asked about debates (like the "Harvard School") on Virgil’s supposed political subversion or flattery, Ruden dismisses this as largely irrelevant.
  • Virgil, she argues, shared the basic Roman consensus—belief in Rome’s destiny to rule, and horror at civil discord—but had little real interest in political detail.
  • "He did not care enough, you know, to be in rebellion against... things that, political things that, that Augustine wanted him to express." [52:51]
  • However, she allows that Virgil “may have been... poking at Augustus here and there," referencing ambiguous moments like the gates of ivory in Aeneid Book 6 (54:16).
  • His true passions were elsewhere: in literary craft, landscape, and the emotional tragedies of his characters.

The Reluctant Final Masterpiece

• Perfectionism and Obsession with Unfinished Aeneid (55:54–59:59):
  • Ruden explains Virgil’s struggle to finish The Aeneid, including his notorious half-lines, as possibly both perfectionism and fear of creative finality.
  • She speculates that Virgil’s delay created personal leverage with Augustus, and that surrendering the poem might have endangered his privileged way of life.
  • "Once Virgil surrenders a finished manuscript and declares the poem finished, what more leverage has he got?" [60:58]
  • The tension over the Aeneid's completion may have weighed heavily on Virgil, haunting him to his death.

Concluding Notes and Upcoming Projects

• End of the Conversation and Forthcoming Work (62:31–64:56):
  • Ruden is working on a biography of Perpetua for the same Ancient Lives series, and a history of messaging around family planning with Norton.
  • She promises rich, earthy perspectives on early Christianity, and contemporary relevance in her analysis of social issues.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the challenge of writing a biography of Virgil:

  • "It's almost nothing but obstacles. Virgil is a literary saint, a political saint, even a religious saint... We've got a superhuman figure to start out with." (Sarah Ruden, 06:43)

• On the limits of knowing the person behind the poetry:

  • "It's impossible to speak with real confidence about that. We're always speculating when we talk about an author..." (Sarah Ruden, 13:15)

• On literary genius:

  • "I defy anybody to contradict me when I say that people with very great talent in literature are different from you and me." (Sarah Ruden, 15:12)

• On Augustus as patron:

  • "Augustus was a political genius, and maybe at a level the world has never known otherwise... he could read people and make use of them without being so overbearing as to ruin them." (Sarah Ruden, 45:24)

• On the futility of the Harvard School’s ideological debate:

  • "I don't even think... it's worth addressing, at least in the terms that it's been delivered to us... he did not dissent from the basic ideas that Augustus wanted him to deliver. And that's because it didn't make any sense to dissent." (Sarah Ruden, 49:11–49:47)

• On Virgil’s real concerns:

  • "The passion... was in his devotion to literature. His passion was... in his own emotional life and in the largely... frustrating personal life that he had. These are the things that he actually cared about." (Sarah Ruden, 52:51)

• On his unfinished Aeneid as personal leverage:

  • "Once Virgil surrenders a finished manuscript and declares the poem finished, what more leverage has he got?" (Sarah Ruden, 60:58)

Key Timestamps

• 02:43: Ruden on her classical journey and the privilege of writing this biography.
• 04:45: The political urgency of understanding ancient personalities.
• 06:43: The biographical "obstacles" in recreating Virgil’s life.
• 08:42: Method: focusing on Virgil’s artistry and language.
• 13:15: The impossibility of separating author and persona.
• 15:12: The literary mentality and 'sickliness' as both curse and career tool.
• 20:06: Ancient and modern patronage—Virgil, Augustus, and comparison to the Harlem Renaissance.
• 31:34: Virgil’s sexuality and the solitude it entailed.
• 39:09: The rural longing in Virgil’s poetry, connecting beekeeping and tragedy.
• 45:24: Augustus’ unique success in nurturing literary greatness.
• 49:11: Ruden’s dismissal of the “praise vs. subversion” scholarly debate.
• 55:54: The poignancy of Virgil’s struggle to finish the Aeneid.
• 60:58: The Aeneid manuscript as Virgil’s ultimate bargaining chip.
• 62:31: Ruden on current and upcoming book projects.

Final Reflection

Throughout the conversation, Sarah Ruden brings Virgil down from his canonical pedestal, urging us to see him as a complex artist shaped by desire, loneliness, ambition, and circumstance. Her biography seeks to uncover the man behind the legend without falling into the trap of overconfident speculation—always foregrounding the artistry and personal struggle that made Virgil's works endure.