Episode Overview

Podcast: New Books Network
Host: Nicholas Gordon
Guest: Sean Mathews, author of The New Byzantines: The Rise of Greece and Return of the Near East (Hurst, 2025)
Air Date: January 8, 2026

This episode explores Sean Mathews' provocative new book, which challenges conventional narratives about Greece’s identity and geopolitical orientation. Mathews argues that Greece, long mythologized as a Western nation and the "cradle of Western civilization," is instead deeply rooted in and increasingly returning to its Near East context—historically, culturally, and geopolitically. The conversation addresses the complex historical legacies shaping Greece’s place in the world, its intertwined relationships with neighbors like Turkey, Egypt, Israel, and the enduring impact of the Byzantine and Ottoman eras, as well as contemporary alliances and rivalries.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Thesis: Greece as a Near Eastern Country

[02:43]

• Mathews contends that considering Greece as part of the Near East is less a recent shift than a return to its historic context.

• The term “Near East” is acknowledged as Western-centric, but Mathews deems it the most descriptive for this connected region spanning Greece, the Levant, Egypt, and Turkey.

• Quote:

  “Greece’s history, its culture, its religion, all firmly placed within the Near East. … The last 80 years or so… with NATO, the European Union, that was a bit of an aberration, actually, and that Greece is really firmly centered in the Near East.” — Sean Mathews [03:58]

• Mathews highlights a shift in gravity due to:

  • A waning U.S. and Western presence/interests in the region.
  • The remarkable demographic and economic strength of surrounding Near East countries, especially the youth and population boom to Greece's east and south (e.g., Egypt).

2. Understanding "Near East" and Its Modern Relevance

[04:35]

• The region’s defining factors: youthful demographics, economic vitality (especially Gulf states), and increased geopolitical activity from "middle powers" (Turkey, Israel, Saudi Arabia, UAE).
• Athens is as close to Cairo as to Rome, yet the contrasts are stark:
  • Italy's median age ~48 vs. Egypt's 25; Egypt’s much larger population.
• These shifts position Greece increasingly in connection with the Near East’s demographic and political orbit.

3. Greece’s Modern History and Identity

[07:30]

• Mathews paints Athens as aesthetically and socially more akin to Middle Eastern capitals (Beirut, Alexandria, pre-war Gaza) than to Western ones.
• Quote:

  “Athens is really lathered in concrete… very easy to see Athens as a Near Eastern city, comparing it to Beirut, Alexandria, cities in historic Palestine.” — Sean Mathews [08:12]

The Greek War of Independence

[09:22]

• Two central impulses in Greek independence:

  • Enlightenment/Western: Inspired by the French Revolution, Greek merchants and intellectuals aimed for Western nationhood.
  • Byzantine/Eastern: A broader popular impulse to reassert Orthodox Christianity and Byzantine heritage.

• The revolution was a brutal, Near Eastern-style conflict, not a pure Enlightenment struggle.

• Quote:

  “If you want to understand the Greek psyche, it’s best not to read Plato and Aristotle, but … Nikos Kazantzakis… Freedom and Death.” — Sean Mathews [12:12]

• Western European nations influenced the creation of modern Greece:

  • Example: Prince Otto of Bavaria, non-Greek and Catholic, was installed as Greece’s first monarch.

4. Ottoman Legacies in Modern Greece

[14:52]

• Large portions of today's Greece only became Greek in the 20th century, having been Ottoman until just before WWI.
• The Ottoman legacy is most pronounced in Epirus, Macedonia, Western Thrace, and on islands like Chios, Rhodes, Lesbos—evident in architecture, food, and social structures, if not always obvious to quick visitors.

5. The Greek Diaspora and Levantine Influences

[17:32]

• Mathews discusses the Greek diaspora’s significant presence and influence across the region, especially in Egypt and Jerusalem.
• The definition of “diaspora” is blurred since Greeks have ancient roots across the Eastern Mediterranean—they often see themselves not as expatriates but as locals.

Case Study: The Greeks in Egypt

• Migration surged in the 19th/20th centuries when Egypt offered economic opportunity while Greece was poor and dependent.
• Greek merchant families like the Benaki family became both business leaders and benefactors in Egypt.
• Alexandria, in particular, became a cosmopolitan hub with deep Greek roots.

6. The Greek Orthodox Church in Jerusalem

[22:34]

• The Church is a vital, visible institution, hugely influential due to its extensive land holdings.

• The Greek flag is the most visible in Jerusalem’s Old City after the Israeli flag.

• The community faces mounting pressure:

  • The Israeli government and settler groups are challenging church property rights, including demands for back taxes and efforts to reclaim land.
  • Example: The Knesset is built on land leased from the Greek Church.
  • The number of Greeks in Jerusalem has dwindled from tens of thousands to fewer than 100 today.

• Quote:

  “One Greek diplomat that I met … described the city like a chessboard… if the Greek church sells one piece of land, that will upset the whole chessboard.” — Sean Mathews [26:32]

• Educational institutions, like the Greek seminary, have seen enrollment plummet due to both bureaucratic (Israeli visa restrictions) and security challenges (settler attacks).

7. Greek and Turkish Historical Dynamics—Constantinople/Istanbul

[29:39]

• Constantinople (Istanbul) remains central in Greek memory and identity.
• Even up to 1923, reclaiming the city was a Greek political aspiration.
• Greek presence persisted through the early 20th century; the 1923 Treaty of Lausanne allowed ~150,000 Greeks to remain, balanced by protection for Turkish Muslims in Western Thrace.
• Subsequent Turkish policies in the 20th century (notably a 1955 pogrom and 1964 mass expulsions) reduced the Greek population in Istanbul to around 2,000 today.
• The remaining Greek community is proud and active, but aging and shrinking.
• Quote:

  “The idea of Constantinople as the beating heart of a larger Greece really is ingrained in Greek consciousness.” — Sean Mathews [30:23]

8. Modern Geopolitics: Greece, Turkey, Israel, and the Shifting Balance

[37:39]

• Under Erdoğan, Turkey asserts itself as a regional power, sometimes in opposition to the West, supporting allies and causes across the Mediterranean and Middle East.
• Greece responds by seeking alliances, especially with Israel (through military cooperation and defense deals) and by deepening ties with the U.S. and other NATO allies.
  • Significant U.S. military access to Greek ports (Alexandroupoli, Suda Bay).
• The waning U.S. interest and involvement in the Eastern Mediterranean worries Greece, especially facing a much larger, more powerful Turkey.
• Mathews describes Greece and Turkey as “perfect foils”—Turkey flexing its independence, Greece seeking support via alliances to counterbalance.
• Quote:

  “I think of Greece and Turkey really as perfect foils of each other, Nick... Where Turkey has trumpeted its independence, Greece’s answer has been to double down on NATO…” — Sean Mathews [38:10]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Western vs. Eastern Greek identity:

  “The last 80 years or so… with NATO, the European Union, that was a bit of an aberration, actually, and that Greece is really firmly centered in the Near East.” — Mathews [03:58]

• On Greek architecture and urban feel:

  “Athens is really lathered in concrete… very easy to see Athens as a Near Eastern city, comparing it to Beirut, Alexandria, cities in historic Palestine.” — [08:12]

• On the Greek church’s pivotal status in Jerusalem:

  “If the Greek church sells one piece of land, that will upset the whole chessboard.” — [26:32]

• On changes in Istanbul’s Greek community:

  “Today, the Greek numbers in Istanbul are down to 2000. … The biggest threat… is the fact that there just are not a lot of young people.” — [36:52]

• On the dilemma of Greek-Turkish relations:

  “Where Turkey has trumpeted its independence, Greece’s answer has been to double down on NATO…” — [38:10]

Important Timestamps & Segments

• 02:43 — Defining the Near East, and Greece’s return to it.
• 07:30 — The visual and social similarities between Athens and Middle Eastern capitals.
• 09:22 — Competing impulses in Greek independence: Enlightenment vs. Byzantine/Orthodox.
• 14:52 — The pervasiveness of Ottoman legacy in modern Greece.
• 17:32 — The rootedness of the Greek diaspora in Egypt and the Levant.
• 22:34 — The Greek Orthodox Church’s status and struggles in Jerusalem.
• 29:39 — The enduring Greek connection to Constantinople/Istanbul, population decline, and diaspora dynamics.
• 37:39 — Contemporary geopolitics: Greek-Turkish rivalry, alliances, U.S./NATO role, demographic realities.

Further Reading and Sean Mathews’ Work

[42:39]

• The book: The New Byzantines: The Rise of Greece and Return of the Near East (Hurst, 2025). Available via Amazon and the publisher.
• Mathews reports for Middle East Eye and is active on social media (@SeanMathews).

Episode Takeaways

• Greece’s Western orientation is a recent, possibly fleeting chapter; its connections—cultural, demographic, religious, and geopolitical—to the Near East are deep and resurgent.
• Athens, far from being a purely “Western” city, shares more visually, culturally, and socially with the Middle East.
• The Greek diaspora and historical legacies are palpable in Egypt, Jerusalem, and Istanbul, where both accomplishments and ongoing vulnerabilities are visible.
• Present-day geopolitical currents reinforce old ties and dilemmas: Greece balances between Western alliances and its historical, geographical position in the Near East, as the region’s future is ever more shaped by new “middle powers” and shifting demographics.