Rebecca Buchanan (2:31)

So this is your first, this is your debut novel. Right. I would love for you to talk a little bit about why you wanted to tell this story, how this sort of came to be. Can you give a little sort of insight into how you came to this point?

Soumia Saudi (2:48)

Yeah. Thank you so much. I feel like as a society, we're finally in that moment where we're starting to name intergenerational trauma. We're starting to Name displacement and the cost of what it means to be resilient. Gajra essentially breeds in that. In my work as a peace negotiator, in my work in the space of conflict transformation, I needed to find a way for us to name the messy, to name the complicated, to get beyond the right or wrong, good or evil. And Gaja, in a lot of ways, felt like the right time to offer that and to bring some of those complexities of what it means to be human to life.

Rebecca Buchanan (3:34)

So you tell this story of this woman who is kind of dealing with two different, very different worlds, right from Pakistan to Canada and two different worlds, two different countries, two different. Two different everything. So can you talk a little bit about that and place in the novel and what that kind of means and how you write about that?

Soumia Saudi (3:58)

Sure. So in telling her story and the way that the book is written is Iman tells her story about her journey through life. And when you read the book, you'll feel that nostalgia, that homesickness, if you will, that she feels and she talks about. And she's able to reflect on home with such a deep sense of longing. And in a lot of ways, well, I am a daughter of migration, as a newcomer to Canada, as someone who feels homesick a lot, as someone who is able to reflect back on the love that I carry for my homeland, the echoes of the mountains of Kashmir and the rooftops of Lahore that I carry in my blood, memory, in my being. So I loved that I was able to tap into some of that lived experience, some of that longing for home and weaving those elements of Iman's two homes. Yeah.

Rebecca Buchanan (5:04)

How much of your experience do you. I mean, do you feel like this is. There's parts of you in here besides that, like, are like, what. What did you draw on, I guess, to write this novel, to come to this, you know, your characters and the story.

Soumia Saudi (5:22)

Yeah. Great question. And so many people have asked me, is this about you? And I love that question because we always have this curiosity when someone puts out a work of fiction. It's like, how much of this is actually them. And I always used to wonder that when I would read books. And so I love that I'm being asked that question and in a lot of ways, wrestling with it, because I think the beauty of art and the beauty of expression is that every expression, whether it's someone else's story or parts of it, is our own story, carries a part of us. And, you know, Gajera is a work of fiction, and it also is a culmination of so many reflections and opportunities to sit with survivors of domestic violence, for example, sit with survivors of migration, sit with daughters who are navigating the complexity of what it means to balance culture and history and new beginnings. So in a lot of ways, I was able to reflect on my experiences working with many people who navigate these things on a daily basis, as well as my own reflections of what it means to be away from home, what it means to navigate a world that celebrates a different religion or has no place for yours. So there's little parts of that that are woven in throughout the book.

Rebecca Buchanan (6:55)

So one thing that I really loved about this book was that you have this sort of mix of genres, right? You tell the story, but there is poetry within it. There's also some. I don't know if I want to call them fairy tales, but I will. And you can tell me there's something besides fairy tales, Right? But we've got this mixture stories, so can you talk a little bit about that and your choice for melding genre and mixing those together?

Soumia Saudi (7:24)

Yeah. Thank you, Rebecca. You know, I'm laughing because I remember when I sent my manuscript to my publisher and one of the first questions, one of the first conversations was about genre. And I didn't know how to answer that question because it's like, oh, I don't know what genre this is. And in a lot of ways, some of the. And Gajera's had such incredible reviews, editorial and otherwise reviews that we've received over the last. In just the last couple of months here since the book came out, some of the early reviews were about genre, that this book refuses to sit in a genre. And I loved hearing that because really, what Kajra is about is making sense of trauma. And that sense making can happen in so many ways with so many modalities. And if we pause for a second and think about ways in which we would express as humans what we're struggling with, what happened to us. It's not clean and tidy and structured and perfectly grammar. I don't even know if that was the right word, perfect. But you know, it's like those expressions can happen in so many different ways. Sometimes it's an outburst, other times it's metaphors, other times it's allegories. And yet other times it's reminders of, well, this reminds me of that thing that happened to so and so. So so. In a lot of ways, Gajra is a bit of a bow to that expression, to that journey, to that messy journey of healing and how that expression comes out. So when we hear what's going on with Iman, she tells the story in this very structured kind of way as well, in a chapter, but then there's a poem at the end of each chapter that bookends it and almost helps understand the story from a bit of a different perspective as well. So all of those together are a bit of a no to what it means to have a traumatized brain and express in those ways.

Rebecca Buchanan (9:28)

And it also kind of moves back and forth. Right. I appreciate what you're talking about because that nonlinear. You really do see the generational trauma, the way trauma impacts everyone who's touched by it. Right. Not only one person, but everyone and how it can continue in life. So did you start out by wanting to write it in this kind of, you know, not, I say non linear, but more sort of like a memory, kind of like this back and forth? Or was this something that you can't. Can you talk a little bit about that choice?

Soumia Saudi (10:03)

Yeah. I wish I could give a tidy account of how that happened in. In its own, you know, in the ways of how writing unfolds. It was also very nonlinear. I had moments of reflecting on, like there's some of the stories of written such a long time ago as my own reflections on something that I had witnessed or something that was shared with me and trying to make sense of what had just unfolded. So it was a bit of a mixed exercise, if you will, where sometimes it was a poem, other times it was this account of what had happened, and yet other times it was reading that account and then reflecting on it in a poetic sort of way. And so the writing journey is as linear or as non linear as the journey of trauma itself. And also one of the things that in my work as a peace negotiator, when we're sitting down with people and hearing the first time the emotions come out about what has happened, there's a part of us that is curious about the backstory. But in order to receive that backstory, we have to hold space for that person to go back in time and share that account in that real time. I'm telling you about today. But here's actually what happened 30 years ago. And we always appreciate when we hear the backstory because it satisfies a curiosity that we may not know was there. So that is also what Gajra does, is there's these moments of flashbacks. It goes back in time to help explain and make sense of the. What is happening now.

Rebecca Buchanan (11:50)

Yeah. One question I had, and you sort of Mentioned that you didn't write this in a linear. Right. You were writing because you draw on things that are more recent that have recently occurred. And so I was wondering if this was written, like, how long it took you to write this and if it was something where. When, for example, you talk about the indigenous folks who were the graves that, you know in Canada, and we've had the same thing in the United States, but you talk about these things that are sort of more recent. And so, yeah, I was wondering if those sort of, as they occurred, they were brought into this or if that had already happened and then you wrote about it.

Soumia Saudi (12:33)

Yeah, I would say a combination of things. So writing for me, and this is sort of something that is mirrored in Iman's journey as well, is early in her life, she realizes the power of writing, and she's given this very special gift by her mother that results in her, you know, then starting to write. And in a lot of ways, that is what writing is for me, both as an activity of, you know, just journaling, but also whenever I've been invited to support a, you know, a particularly difficult negotiation where health space and some of the stories are challenging to hear. Writing is a way for me to make sense of those stories, even just for myself. And so it was a combination of both pulling in some of the experiences that I had written about in the past and also continuing to write. So from start to finish, I would say in earnest, it probably took about a year to write, and in that, I was pulling in from experiences that I had already written about, as well as things that were unfolding. And that's the other thing about trauma and trauma recovery and healing is we assume that, oh, perfect, I'm good to go, I'm all stitched up and life is going to be good. And then, boom, something happens, and here we are again raging about the same thing. So in a lot of ways, every time I was pulling in some of the stories as they were happening and reflecting on those, it was somehow always tying to something that had happened in the past. So that is very much something that. A bit of a meandering journey that's reflected in Gujarat.

Rebecca Buchanan (14:20)

One thing that. Another thing I really appreciated was with a mom, even as a young child, right, we get her. We see her when she's this young child, and she seems like she is sort of strong and resilient. And yet that doesn't mean that she doesn't go through all this trauma, see multiple levels of. I don't know if levels is the right word, but multiple ways in which trauma impacts her. She gets older and older and has to fight with that. So is that something that you really wanted to show that. That it doesn't. Just because you seem strong or you seem unique or you seem X, Y and Z does not mean that you're not going. That you're. You don't go through these sort of traumatic experiences.

Soumia Saudi (15:10)

Yeah. Yeah, I appreciate that. Question 1 One thing that was really important to me, it always has been in my work, is when I'm invited to bring groups together, I often open with this quote from Rumi out beyond the ideas of right doing and wrongdoing is a field. I'll meet you there. And I mentioned that a little bit in my author's notes at the end. And that quote is very much at the heart of how Kajra is written about. When we think about resilience, it doesn't mean that if I'm resilient, I'm not going to lose my shit. It doesn't mean that because I'm resilient that I will not make mistakes or that I won't have these moments of poor judgment and what have you. So in a way it really challenges that notion of what resilience looks like. Resilience can be in the silence. Resilience can be in the taking our time to observe and make sense. Resilience can be in the like just enraged expression of what we're experiencing. So vulnerability and resilience can coexist. And I think that comes out quite loudly in Gajra, where it's not done. Healing is never done. Resilience is never done. Strength can become weakness, and that in itself can be resilient as well.

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Rebecca Buchanan (18:15)

Talking, it made me think too of it really also shows that sometimes you, I don't know if make a sum. I'm just going to say make assumptions about how someone reacts, thinking like they reacted that way because they're bitter about it or they have got it all figured out or they haven't got it all figured out. And then an incident occurs or something occurs and you realize, okay, I read that whole thing wrong. Right. And so we kind of see that the ways in which you talk about that generational trauma is impacted by that as well, right?

Soumia Saudi (18:53)

Well, yeah. And you know, thinking about. So if someone. So in the work that I do where, you know, imagine there's lots of, you know, emotional expressions of what has happened to people and we, when we're invited in spaces or if we're in conflict ourselves with someone, what really annoys us, gets under our skin is how the other people behaves and reacts in that setting because it may not align with what we're expecting them to do because we have a certain impression of who they are, what's happened to them. So imagine if someone had met Iman right after the first incident that happens to her. She wouldn't have said a word because she was not using her words. And then fast forward to what if someone had met Iman when she was raging on the streets of Islamabad, she wouldn't have even listened to a word they would have said. She would have asked them to go where the sun don't shine. So those are. That's the same person, but two very different parts in their life, two very different places in their healing journey. So Gajra also is that invitation to know that our expressions when we're in conflict, our expressions and those of the people that we're in conflict with can vary across this wide spectrum of expressions depending on where they are with having made sense of their trauma.

Rebecca Buchanan (20:21)

And through this too, it kind of. You talk about forgiveness and whose right it is to forgive. Right. I think that is really important, you know, when you think about trauma, when you think about how we want people to.

Soumia Saudi (20:37)

To.

Rebecca Buchanan (20:38)

For we, you know, I would speak, I guess, as an. In America, we often want people just like, just forgive them. Forgive. It's okay, you know, and it's like, no. And this idea that forgiveness will make you feel better, right? So can you talk a little bit? Because I'm guessing that is tied in with some of the work you do as a piece, right? Those kinds. So that idea of forgiveness, my goodness.

Soumia Saudi (21:01)

I will say, Rebecca, one of the writing about forgiveness was probably, like, it probably broke me a few times through the process of writing, because you're right. Like, it is probably the most central theme of the work that I do is what does it look like to forgive? And we come from so many different worldviews and ways of knowing and knowledge systems and religion and social pressures of what. What forgiveness should look like, who has the right to forgive, and what are we really forgiving for? And what does that mean for the future? How do we forgive? And in. I recall a few years ago working with a community where after they had worked through their differences over weeks, they had an entire ritual centered on forgiveness, where one family made a feast for the other family, and the family who was forgiving was the one who made the feast and invited the other family over for a final conversation about what exactly they're being forgiven for. And like, it stuck with me as yet another way that we wrestle with forgiveness. Because if forgiveness equates to I have now healed from the trauma, I am no longer hurting, then that has some really important implications on the world around us. If I am no longer hurting, then chances are I'm probably not going to be hurting others. But if I am still hurting, then I will continue to hurt others. So what does forgiveness mean in all of that? Should I forgive? If I am to forgive and if it's my right to forgive, then that means I need that safe space, that brave space for me to be able to unpack and analyze and understand what has happened to me. So forgiveness can take a lot of these forms. And yeah, I think there's a nice chunk of the book that wrestles with that idea of forgiveness. And in some cases, we see different faces of it for how Iman wrestles with each person who she's trying to figure out what forgiveness would look like for them.

Rebecca Buchanan (23:20)

So for you writing about this, right, when you're writing about trauma, when you're writing about domestic violence, when you're thinking about these things, it's hard to write about the. Right. So can you talk a little bit about your kind of self care process? Your process in taking care of yourself when wanting to share these stories? Right. Because I think we often think, okay, the story's out there, but it also means that someone wrote that story and really had to wrestle with what that was like.

Soumia Saudi (23:52)

Yeah. Oh, thank you for that question. I think that's something we don't talk about enough. I do a fair bit of work in this space of trauma, informed storytelling. And what does it mean to tell stories in a way that don't re traumatize others? And that's easier said than done because I don't know what someone else's triggers might look like, just like they might not know what my triggers look like or what would activate me. For me to write about this, I had to be very careful to let the writing happen when it happened. So I envy authors who have this beautiful routine of every. Every morning, six in the morning, they get up and they write for 22 minutes and then they're done. And then. And you know, I was like, oh, I wish I could do that. Nuh. For me it happened at all sorts of odd times. Sometimes in the middle of the night, I've got two hours of the words are just coming out and I need to put them on paper. Other times, you know, I would be out on a walk and then something would emerge, whether certain phrases or visuals that I needed to incorporate. So I would record them. In general, my self care routine, I had pre booked appointments with my clinical psychologist to be able to give myself accountability that I will be working on this so I'll need space. I went for long walks every time I was done writing a particularly difficult chapter. I would then go and celebrate and say, oh, you did good today, kid. And then there was a bakery on the way, conveniently so. So there was a lot of business to a local Winnipeg bakery, which was kind of fun. And then, you know, I've gotten into this really beautiful morning meditation routine and I was also very deliberate about making sure that I stuck to that even on days that I didn't want to. In a lot of ways, I felt like my self care was kind of perfect for the year that I was writing the book, which is a humbling reminder right now that I need to get back to it now that the book is done.

Rebecca Buchanan (26:05)

So did you have someone who.

Soumia Saudi (26:08)

You.

Rebecca Buchanan (26:09)

Bounced like that read this, you know, after with you, or that you bounced ideas off of as well, or was this very much you kind of working and taking care of your, you know, and, and dealing with this yourself?

Soumia Saudi (26:23)

Oh, I had a team is how I would refer to my advisors. And we, you know, if for those of us who work in the space of peace negotiations, we've established a long time ago that trauma informed, if you want to do work in a trauma informed way, you never work alone. So I would bounce off ideas. I would have long conversations about forgiveness with people that, here's what's coming up for me. What is, what does that look like for you? What do you think? So I had a group of like friends and peers who I would, who I would talk to, including my own husband. My goodness, he had to put up with me wrestling with the concept of forgiveness at 2 in the morning. That takes a special partner. Yes. So I had lots of, lots of support around me and was.

Rebecca Buchanan (27:11)

So writing this story and writing about Imam, was she like. So some authors talk about a character just coming to them and talking to them. Was she someone. Did you start with her in mind or did you want to write about this idea of forgiveness? Write about this idea of sort of resilience and sort of longing and all these things. And then she appeared. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Soumia Saudi (27:35)

Oh, I like that question. I think for me, the characters came to me and I didn't know how the story was going to end, for example, and I almost let the characters tell me what that would look like, which sounds like a very quirky sort of way to write. But I let that process happen. And when I was creating, when the character emerged, it was very much a culmination of many, many women and their voices whose story needed to be told. And so Iman, in a way carries the echoes of many, as do the other characters in the book. Like Nanojan, for example, carries the echoes of so many grandmother who I've met over the course of, over my life, who've shared all sorts of beautiful memories about themselves and their families and where they come from. So very much let the characters emerged organically and then ended up in the ways that they did.

Rebecca Buchanan (28:45)

And you know, she moves between Pakistan and Canada and then back to Pakistan and then back to Canada. And there is talk like throughout this, talking about how like, even though she longs for being home, Canada has also changed. Is that something that, like, I don't know how, like more that you did see that change, Is it more like you hope for that change or a mixture, you know what I mean?

Soumia Saudi (29:14)

Oh my gosh. I Love it.

Rebecca Buchanan (29:16)

Yes.

Soumia Saudi (29:17)

And, oh, I wish you could hear my husband's views on this. So I've always had a complicated relationship with Canada. Being a newcomer myself. I'm a Muslim woman. I'm a woman leader. So, you know, when all of those identities come together, being a person of color who came here right after 9, 11, there's very different times. And then we see what's unfolding politically around the world, whether that's in the US Or Canada or Europe, and really just everywhere right now, it's chaotic. And it's so chaotic for people who have these intersectional identities that carry an inherent degree of marginalization and oppression. So within that. Yes. So the simple answer is yes. Have always wrestled with whether or not Canada is home, whether or not even I as a person can belong in Canada. And for the longest time, when someone would ask me where I'm from, I didn't know how to answer that question. And I would go in this, like, well, and then sort of pretend I needed to use the bathroom. No. And not come back in the room or change the conversation. In a way, Gujarat reflects that wrestling of what it means to. To be constantly pulled by your homeland, because that's where your heart, your soul, your love lies. And also trying to find ways of belong, belonging, fight for ways of belonging in Canada. So it is always going to be an active struggle. And I think that is what will resonate a lot with those in the diaspora who continue to ask this question. Because we can go through weeks, months, years of feeling like, oof, yeah, Canada's home. And then you're out somewhere and someone says, go back to where you come from, and boom, it all falls apart. So it is a constant vessel. And I think that is very much what Iman wrestles with as well. And then eventually, you know, settles for something.

Rebecca Buchanan (31:26)

So I wanted to. One thing I wanted to ask you too, were you're telling this, this narrative and this story, were there. Are there authors that you drew on or drew from? Right. In order to tell this? Because we. You're telling a story that is often not heard. Right. Like you said, you want to tell these story of these women who need to be heard, these voices who need to be hear. So are there authors, are there people that you drew on for inspiration to create this?

Soumia Saudi (31:56)

Yeah. Thank you for that. I love reading the works of Khaled Hosseini. Like, just the lyrical style of writing. I love Elif Shafak's work. I love Nikita Gill's poetry and allegories and metaphors. I love the Hannah Artist trilogy by Al Kadroshi. And, you know, those would be the authors who, whenever I read, I feel their story. And so when I was looking at my own writing, I found that, you know, some of the ways that they write and express was resonating a lot with me. And naturally, I'm drawn to more of that writing that feels immersive, and I can. I almost feel like I'm on this hiking trail where I'm walking alongside them as they tell the story. So those would be some of the authors that I feel particularly drawn to, and their styles feel, like, beautifully similar to mine.

Rebecca Buchanan (33:00)

What is it? I mean, this might be a weird question, but I'm gonna ask it. I mean, I don't know if it's weird or not.

Soumia Saudi (33:04)

I love weird questions.

Rebecca Buchanan (33:05)

I'm wondering, like, what do you hope for your. You know, you put your novel out into the world. What do you hope for? What do you hope that take from it, get from it?

Soumia Saudi (33:14)

Like.

Rebecca Buchanan (33:15)

Like, do you have. Or do you have a hope? Do you have this idea? Like, I really hope that this. This is who it finds or this is the place it finds.

Soumia Saudi (33:24)

Oh, so many hopes and dreams, Rebecca. So many hopes and dreams. I think there's. I would say, I would love for people to see themselves reflected in the story. And, you know, you talked just now about how Gajura talks about a lot of the things that people don't usually talk about. You know, there's, like, one example I can share is there are two, I think, two moments. Yeah, there are two moments in the book where Iman wants to physically hurt her abuser, and she gets very, very close, and it's this moment where she's imagining what it would actually feel like, and there's comfort for her in that feeling and to be able to express that, because those are feelings that someone who's wrestled with domestic violence may express and yet be very, very afraid of being canceled or being judged or being hurt by others for just saying those things out loud. So the outcome is those things just stay within our bodies. And there's another sort of similar incident in the book where Iman, you know, imagines what that would be like. So one of the things that I hope is for survivors, for those wrestling with trauma, to feel seen, to read Gajra and go, oh, thank goodness. Thank goodness someone recognizes that healing is not this beautiful, linear journey. I've gone to my therapist, and I'm going to be good for the next week before my next appointment and so on. So I hope people feel seen. What I also hope for those who have who are either supporting someone who's living with trauma or just generally walking living in society is to have a little bit more compassion and understanding for different ways of living, different ways of expression. So when you see someone from a different part of the world, you have this moment of realization that, my goodness, they might be someone who comes from this beautifully rich, complex culture and carry so much wisdom. So I hope Kajala creates an opportunity for people to express that human to human curiosity about our collective experiences.

Rebecca Buchanan (35:42)

Wonderful. So the book is out now. So my final question is people can get the book. Is there anything going on either with the book or with you? Anything you're working on now? What do you like self promote yourself? Yeah.

Soumia Saudi (35:56)

Okay, cool. I love this. So yes, Gajra's out. So for those who are reading it, who are going to be reading it, I hope you are Leave Reviews Online I've learned recently that reviews are really, really important because that's what all authors need for the algorithm to do its own magic for higher visibility. So please leave a review on Goodreads, on StoryGraph, BookBubble, Amazon, whatever platform you might be using. The book is also available in audio format. I've recorded it myself, which I was really excited about. So nervous. My goodness, it's not perfect. I was told at one point that they had to edit out some mouthness sounds or apparently I was hungry so they could hear that too. A very humbling experience. There are a few folk songs that actually sing in the audio recording as well, so have a listen and then what I'm working on right now. I did this poll on Instagram recently, so if you're not following me on Instagram, please do. I did this poll recently asking people what they would like to see next and I offered two options. One was a book of poetry and the second was a prequel that tells the story of Nanojan similar to how we hear the story of Iman. And so far unanimously, people want to hear the story of Nanojan. So that's what I'm working on next.

Rebecca Buchanan (37:29)

Wonderful. Thank you so much Samia Sadiq, for talking with me about Ghidura for New Books Network and I really appreciate it.

Soumia Saudi (37:38)

Thank you so much for having me. Foreign.

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