Podcast Summary

Podcast: New Books Network

Episode: Stanley Bill and Ben Stanley, "Good Change: The Rise and Fall of Poland's Illiberal Revolution" (Stanford UP, 2025)

Date: September 8, 2025

Host: Tim Jones

Episode Overview

This episode centers on the recent book Good Change: The Rise and Fall of Poland's Illiberal Revolution by Stanley Bill and Ben Stanley. Tim Jones hosts an in-depth discussion on the evolution of Poland’s political landscape, focusing heavily on the Law and Justice Party’s (PiS) rule from 2015 to 2023, the ideological transformations at play, and the broader implications for European democracy and illiberal governance. Poland’s experience is contrasted with Hungary’s Orban-led illiberal regime, and the conversation also ranges to future possibilities ahead of the 2027 elections and shifting political alliances.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Poland’s Illiberal Turn in Context

• Poland’s growing international significance: Now a “waking European giant,” with economic and military heft, Poland’s trajectory deeply matters to European politics ([02:12]).
• Why Poland’s journey was “missed or dismissed”: The Law and Justice era (2015–2023) challenged prior assumptions of Poland as the “model pupil” of post-communist transition ([04:22], Ben Stanley). This shook up observers and led to greater Western media attention.

2. Comparing Poland and Hungary: The Orban vs. Kaczyński Paradigm

• Orban as illiberal figurehead: Hungarian PM Viktor Orban proudly championed “illiberal democracy;” PiS drew inspiration but couldn’t replicate Hungary, mostly due to lack of a constitutional majority ([05:45], Stanley Bill).
  • “Unlike the Law and Justice Party in Poland, [Orban’s] explicitly used that term of illiberal democracy to describe his own project in Hungary…” ([05:45], Stanley Bill)
  • PiS had to rely on “ad hoc mechanisms” without Hungary's constitutional leverage.
• Influence on global politics: Both Orban and Kaczyński have influenced the American right; intellectual circles around Trump took inspiration from CEE examples of backsliding as “proof of concept” ([08:13], Ben Stanley).

3. Corruption and Political Motivation

• Less grift than Hungary: Though PiS saw its share of political appointments and some corruption, it didn’t reach the “systematic level” seen with Orban’s Hungary ([09:37], Stanley Bill).
  • “We haven’t seen the same kind of sense of personal or familial self-enrichment as we see in Hungary...Kaczyński isn’t building himself a hacienda style residence…” ([12:11], Ben Stanley)
• Party-building over self-enrichment: Kaczyński’s focus was on party strength and machine-building, with a tacit expectation that appointees support the party ([13:53], Stanley Bill).

4. Solidarity, Ideological Divides, and Polish Political Identity

• Solidarity’s legacy: Poland's Solidarity movement was ideologically diverse, and post-1989 politics became defined less by classic left-right divides than by “liberal” vs. “solidarist” currents ([14:48], Ben Stanley).
  • “This was a very ideologically heterogeneous movement...” ([14:48], Ben Stanley)
• PiS’s unique alignment: Conservative on culture, solidarist (center-left) on economic/social policy—a rarity among successful mainstream parties ([18:44], Stanley Bill).
  • “In cultural questions…the party is very much positioned on the conservative right... But at the same time... not rejecting the market... but... challenging some of the problems of the transition...” ([18:44], Stanley Bill)
  • The child benefit program is highlighted as an emblematic policy.

5. The Concept of ‘Impossibilism’ and Institutional Resistance

• Kaczyński v. Liberal Institutions: PiS railed against “impossibilism”—the inability to implement policy because of liberal constitutional constraints ([23:53], Tim Jones; [24:24], Ben Stanley).
  • “If you straightjacket yourself within a constitution which is ostensibly neutral... that's going to create a situation in which those politicians...are going to be unable to implement a lot of the policies...” ([24:24], Ben Stanley)
• Ad hoc governance: Lacking a constitutional majority, PiS preferred decisionist, improvisational governance over formal constitutional change—acting as if the constitution did not bind them ([24:24], Ben Stanley).
  • “It ultimately served the party’s purposes to govern as if the Constitution did not bind them...” ([24:24], Ben Stanley)

6. The 2027 Elections and the Rise of Confederation

• Future of right-wing politics: With PiS’s position weakened and Confederation (Konfederacja) rising, coalition politics are inevitable and fraught ([29:17], Tim Jones; [29:42], Stanley Bill).
  • Confederation threatens PiS both electorally (by siphoning off the radical right) and ideologically (promoting libertarian economics over PiS’s redistributive legacy).
  • “Confederation seems to have different priorities, one of which is a…more libertarian approach to economics and less redistributive. Is this going to change the nature of a PiS-led government?” ([29:17], Tim Jones)
  • “That's a very...interesting question. And in many ways it could become the pressing question of Polish politics going forward…” ([29:42], Stanley Bill)
• Coalition instability: A right-wing coalition would be unstable, with deep differences on Ukraine, economic policy, and identity—plus competition for the same voter base.
• “Quantum of uncertainty”: Major internal division within Confederation and PiS, plus ambitious personalities, would likely make for tumultuous governance ([35:03], Ben Stanley).

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the international role of Poland:

  • "Poland is much bigger and a much more influential beast, only this year joining the trillion dollar club...and massively outspending France, Germany, Italy and Britain on rearmament against the threat from Russia."
    — Tim Jones [02:12]

• On Orban vs. Kaczyński:

  • “[Orban] has managed to become quite influential and quite recognizable in those circles and sought to promote the Hungarian experience and his own illiberal ideas. Now, the Law and Justice government was interested in partnerships with international forces of analogous political views and positions, but...found it more difficult to do so.”
    — Stanley Bill [05:45]

• On the essence of party politics under Kaczyński:

  • "In Kaczyński’s sense, politics is really all there is. Politics is really all that he's interested in doing."
    — Ben Stanley [12:11]

• On party/government corruption:

  • "When family members or members of the party are given plum jobs on the boards of state owned companies with large salaries attached without doing much, it has been a tacit expectation, according to various reports, that part of that income is donated to the party."
    — Stanley Bill [13:53]

• On the nature of ideological divides in Poland:

  • "Poland has arguably developed the purest version of not having a left and a right, instead having a liberal movement and what you call a solidarist movement."
    — Tim Jones [14:16]
  • "We didn't see the emergence of a classic left right divide, as some had been expecting, was precisely because this post Solidarity side was split on these questions."
    — Ben Stanley [14:48]

• On the ‘impossibilism’ of Polish liberal institutions:

  • "If you straightjacket yourself within a constitution... that’s going to create a situation in which those politicians...are going to be unable to implement a lot of the policies that they wanted to implement because they're going to be restrained in doing that by unelected institutions that have no democratic mandate."
    — Ben Stanley [24:24]
  • "It ultimately served the party's purposes to govern as if the Constitution did not bind them, and as if a Constitution could not bind them."
    — Ben Stanley [24:24]

• On the prospects for a PiS-Confederation coalition:

  • "It creates a big conflict both within PiS and potentially between any PiS and Confederation government...How they would arrive at policy positions on those kinds of issues is a very open question. Would be a very difficult negotiation. It would almost certainly be an unstable and tumultuous government..."
    — Stanley Bill [29:42]
  • "Law and Justice might have been able to benefit in 2015 and 2019 from a very particular set of circumstances that allowed them to achieve an independent majority. But...coalition governments are the norm..."
    — Ben Stanley [35:03]

Timestamps for Major Segments

• [02:12] – Introduction to Poland’s political revolution and international context
• [04:22] – Media coverage and Poland’s “model pupil” status disrupted
• [05:45] – Orban’s influence and PiS’s comparative limitations
• [08:13] – Influence on Trump and Western political circles
• [09:37] – Corruption: Poland vs. Hungary, party-building vs. self-enrichment
• [14:48] – Solidarity’s legacy and lack of classic left/right divide
• [18:44] – PiS’s “right on culture, left on economics” identity; child benefit policy
• [24:24] – The impossibilism critique; ad hoc governance over constitutional change
• [29:42] – 2027 election prospects and the rise of Confederation
• [35:03] – Coalition challenges and instability forecast

Conclusion

This episode provides a comprehensive, nuanced look at Poland’s illiberal experiment, connecting local developments to broader European and global political trends. Bill and Stanley offer both historical perspective and acute analysis of present and future challenges, highlighting the complexities of ideological identity in post-communist societies, the constraints and improvisations of illiberal governance, and the volatile, shifting nature of contemporary coalition politics in Poland.