← New Books Network
New Books Network
Stefania Marghitu, "Teen TV" (Routledge, 2021)
01:24:28
An interview with Stefania Marghitu
Loading summary
Transcript59 lines
- [00:00]
A
Hello everybody. This is Marshall Po. I'm the founder of the New Books Network and if you're listening to this podcast on the New Books Network, I bet you like to read. I know that I do. That's why I founded the New Books Network. So as readers, we need to know what to read. And I have a podcast to recommend for you. That being the Proofread podcast, do you have a goal to read more this year? How about a goal to read more of what you love and less of what you don't? The Proofread Podcast is here to help you. Hosted by Casey and Tyler, two English professors and avid readers with busy lives, Proofread helps you decide what books are worth spending your precious time on and what books aren't. They have 15 minute episodes that give you everything you need to know about a book to decide if you should read it or skip it. They offer a brief synopsis. There's fun and witty commentary and there are no spoilers and no sponsored reviews. Life's too short to read a bad book, so subscribe to the Proofread podcast today. And by the way, there's a new season coming soon. This episode is brought to you by Ovid tv. Where do savvy minds go to find masterful documentaries and hard to find films from across the globe? Try a free month long trial at Ovid and go beyond the mainstream. Indiewire says Ovid is unafraid to program films that matter and the New York Times calls Ovid a terrific streamer for independent film fans. A boutique hand curated streaming service. Yet now with over 2 2,400 titles, Ovid is the home to films by auteurs from Chantal Akerman to Chris Marker to Wang Bing and has the richest collection of probing, avant garde and provocative films anywhere. Ovid offers many things except conformity. Try Ovid today and get your first month free. Use promo code NBNovid. That's Ovid TV promo code n B N O V I D. This episode.
- [01:48]
B
Is brought to you by ebay. Before all the algorithm fed blah and the endless sea of dupes, shopping used to feel more fun. Find that feeling again on ebay. It's not mindless scrolling, it's a fashion pursuit. And when you score that rare Adidas collab or the Dior saddlebag you've been manifesting, it's a rush. Ebay has millions of pre loved finds from hundreds of brands backed by authenticity guarantee.
- [02:12]
C
EBay.
- [02:13]
B
Things people love.
- [02:18]
A
Welcome to the New Books Network.
- [02:22]
C
Hi, this is Rebecca Buchanan, host of New Books Network. New books in popular culture. And today I'm here with Stefania Margitu, who is the author of Teen tv, which is one of the books in the Routledge Television Guidebooks collection. So, Stefania, thanks for being here with me.
- [02:41]
B
Thanks so much for having me. I'm excited to chat.
- [02:44]
C
I would love for you to start by just sort of talking about how this book came to be, how, you know, whether you want to start with talking about your interest in teen television and then how you sort of put together this. This collection, this book.
- [03:00]
B
Yeah. So coming from, you know, media studies, originally, I was in film studies in my graduate degree. So one of my first published works was on Clueless, but not quite, you know, a filmic kind of traditional filmic analysis. It was almost a fandom studies, but almost looking at the fandom and how both if you were a teen at the time when you were watching Clueless when it first came out, or if you've. The different ways that Clueless has been remembered and has been not appropriated, but taken up, you know, from like the Iggy Azalea video and at the time, you know, screenings at, you know, the various, like Prince Charles cinema out of London or, you know, some of those Austin Alamo drafthouses. So it was, it was a really nice way to frame this film that is very beloved and like a cult classic in this, in that framework of both fandom and. But girlhood and sort of what elements of the genre really stand out. So, like the clothing or the slang. And I actually co wrote it with a friend who received. Received her MFA in English. She's a poet, so she did a really great job of breaking down a lot of the linguistic elements. And that was also part of my first foray into discussing costume design. So that book, that book chapter laid down a lot of the groundwork for how I approached the. The teen genre. And there was, during my graduate education, there was this kind of acknowledgement that I knew the genre from that historical point of view, that I don't only watch millennial teen TV because I am a millennial. So we talk about the genre in those ways where you may have watched this genre because you were a teen at the time, or it was on syndication at the time and it just happened to be a popular show. Or again, you are a the genre. So it becomes this really kind of complicated genre that it's not just, okay, I'm a fan of the show, but also when you think about the television industrial complexities of the complex, there's a lot of demographics and A lot about kind of fluctuation about the teen market and how you can appeal to them, but also how they. They seem marketable and who is marketable. So this class element, which were the recurring themes throughout the generation, generational divide in the chapters, which. It's not revolutionary that, you know, I chose to do a chronological book, you know, and say Generation xt, you know, it's definitely a genre, but to me, it felt like with every. With everything in kind of the capital D discourse about generational divides and these things coming together, to me, it was a convenient way to talk about constructs of the generation. And both in terms of looking at those demographics and those on screen representations and who's really involved in it and who stays involved.
- [06:18]
C
And before we sort of dive into some of those, some of those things you mentioned sort of how you constructed the, you know, thought about the chapters. Another thing that you do is after each chapter you have an interview with the showrunner, someone. So can you talk a little bit about that choice as well? I thought that was really interesting to sort of not only give us sort of an overview of what was happening during, you know, different generations, some of the television that was going on and what was happening, but also then bring us into hearing about or hearing from someone who is part of that.
- [06:52]
B
Yeah. And, you know, there's. I've. I've been thinking a lot about interviews and how they're presented in different academic formats. And there is something nice about the Q and A format to me, because it's a nice way, you know, the guidebook series as a whole, it's meant to be for either like freshmen or even new to the genre. I actually spoke with a friend in the UK who. They have their A levels, which is kind of like an AP exam or IB exam equivalent for media studies, which she said would be quite useful, like, as a learning tool for that. Because sometimes when you have that crossover intro level, it can either be almost like the senior level in high school or preparing, but to me, that's kind of like a primary source material. So looking at those interviews and they're, you know, they're, they're, they're long and you can pick apart certain things. And I think there's. There was a lot of luck on my end that I was able to do that as an early career scholar, having done my dissertation on showrunners. It was a lot of time and patience. And again, as an early career scholar, as someone who is still a PhD, that I was able to get these interviews was both Very difficult and very fortunate. But it also makes all the difference if you say you have a book coming out rather than a dissertation. And so I really wanted to also have that opportunity because we'll do sometimes in a syllabus, we'll do something like. And here's an interview from Popular press that's been broken down or extended, you know, or shortened for all of these reasons. But I think there's something to it that to me, I wanted to use it as a primary source material. And in some ways the book feels shorter, like sometimes the work that I've done. But also that labor is a lot. And there's lots of academic books I quite like from television studies, like Horace Newcomb's Producers. Medium is a lot of interviews. Or there was a recent book edited by Jennifer hall, and I know there was someone else, Jennifer Halt was one of my advisors, where it was interviews with professionals discussing, like, different distribution models. So I've always been a fan of that Q and A model style and that all of those, for the most part, the contributors were reflective of that generation, I think, as well, starting with Linda Schuyler, who is herself, you know, in the baby boomer category. But how she was able to use public service television and Degrassi, you know, was. Was very interesting. But also someone like Winnie Holzman who has, like a very literary background and wasn't really in that mindset. Even though we think of Winnie Holzman's My so Called Life as this Gen X show and grunge and all of these things. But that universality, too, of being a teenager is also what held up. And the timing of the. Speaking of the Gossip Girl costume designer was also quite nice. And, you know, with the show about to come back and thinking about how, in contrast, it's such a shoestring. The beginning was almost like a shoestring budget when you think of the costume design. And then of course, I think East Los High is an underrated show, but it actually accomplished so much. But it had a very different distribution and production model. So I wanted to highlight those differences as well. And I think the experts, you know, the showrunners, the creators, the producers, the designers spoke very thoughtfully about those. Those differences in a way that I wanted that material to be. To be placed in that way.
- [10:48]
C
So let's sort of start and look at some. Look at what you're sort of doing, the different chapters. So you start with the baby boomers. And so can you talk a little? Can you just sort of. Maybe, maybe I should say it this way ground us in like teen television during that baby boomer generation. Right. What was going on, what was happening. And then we can get into talking about some of the shows that.
- [11:14]
B
Right, yeah. So the great, the great. Another great thing about that I was able to do during my dissertation is and to do archival work and to think about being both. If you're a television studies scholar or a media studies scholar or any of those things. I, I felt coming in that there was a division between being a historian and almost being doing more contemporary or doing more media industry elements. But if you want to cover that, I think and again especially because this book has a pedagogical element to it, but I also wanted to show that it can be done. And it was, you know, this was an archival chapter, but it was also piecing a lot of things together that we naturally do, I think in research. So it's what was going on when television was this brand new medium and there were lots of remnants of, of radio and what was going on when the television market. So including things like rooting the beginning of television advertising was super intriguing because this is the first time, you know, it's, it's taken for granted, but this was the first time, you know, television, you know, would you would. Would take advantage of these other elements I think has television has always done to adapt. So there's a tell, there's a teen department store dedicated to youth, right. There's Seventeen magazine and there's a lot of convincing folks that teens are a viable market. So that comes with a post World War II boom. And obviously a very specific that we've always talked about this demographic of teen audiences who have a disposable income that is always assumed the tween market, the teen market. And so it was really great to go back to those histories of how it was starting to emerge and how there were a lot of failed experiments, there were a lot of short lived television series that didn't really last. Like seeing the Gidget franchise being a massive franchise, but that the television show itself only lasted about a season or seeing folks career start in television. So even framing the stardom element of this is how you know, Sally Field's career worked, you know, and kind of from girlhood to motherhood, right. You don't have that in between that I think a lot of women are pushing for now where you want to show being in your 30s, being in your 40s, you know, not just playing Tom Hanks's significant other than playing his mother later on. So even that Sally Field example to me. And I think also with a lot of recent books coming out about mtv, like Amanda Ann Klein's work about that shift in MTV programming. The kind of common knowledge of MTV used to be music videos, and now it's reality TV programming and music videos live on the Internet. And looking at the early history of music television and seeing that early segregation that was also reflected in the radio airwaves. Right. So that R and B and rock were different, and that's reflected later in mtv. But how that was reflected on the screen when you couldn't have. When there were these regulations where you couldn't have, somebody, you know, higher up decided that there wouldn't be segregation on American Bandstand until. Until shockingly late. Right. Until shockingly late. And that black programming and R and B programming really struggled on the local level. So I saw a recent call for papers about local television histories, which is amazing because that's something. The archives are there everywhere. So that baby Boomer chapter was, I think, for me, also a great rooting because we have these things that are established. It's kind of like if you're a television scholar, you're a television historian, radio and broadcasting gets underlooked in the American context. And I think that's always a nice way to remind as well. And. And a lot of folks who wanted to get to the later chapters appreciated that foundation. Right. Sometimes there's that early chapter that feels tiresome. But I also hope that making those connections and those specificities helps make it more accessible.
- [15:54]
C
Yeah. I mean, I thought. I appreciate. I love that it's separate. Right. That you generationally separated it and. Because I think, look, I agree. Like how you talk about the importance of those connections and the importance of that framing and groundwork for later on. Like another show that you mentioned in here. Welcome back, Kotter. Right. And how I still. I'm a little older than you, so I'm a Gen X through and through. So I still remember watching that, like reruns of that on television and just like, not realizing until later on for, like, how. And especially not realizing until I started, you know, studying education and teens. Like, sort of how. How remarkable to have that show on the air. Well, you know, I think sometimes it's really underrated. It's like, oh, that's the show that. That started. Yeah. Right. But that's it. Right. Nobody, you know, but I'm like, but there's way more.
- [16:55]
B
So much more. So much more. It's a kind of. Yes. And model. Right. Of these shows. Yeah. And I watched the reruns on Nick at night. And even that is something that gets a little bit lost when viewing habits. And as teaching, as teaching, a lot of freshmen who, you know, are used to the on demand streaming culture of this is what I want to watch now. And sometimes hearing I can't really relate to this middle aged show or this mom's show. And it's like we used to not have that luxury. We used to not have, you know, or not even a luxury, because I think it was. It was great to be exposed to different things because they were on and I was enticed, like watching Taxi and Cotter and, you know, all these other things and enjoying them and not really thinking, oh, I'm not the audience, or I'm not the element. But the 70s gets this great reputation of, you know, that progressive element, you know, and the Norman Lear and the Mary Tyler Moore. But this is kind of a unicorn of a show in that way too, because the creator didn't want to chat with me, and that was totally fine. But I think maybe that's what's helped him in his life because he's kind of a private person, but it's based on his life and he was this kind of comedian who pitched the show. And again, that's how innovation happens. Oh, there's other progressive shows, and I do think it counts as a teen, and even that it is a teen TV show. It's set in high school. You know, he is the primary character, but it's about his relationship with these students that the joke is, you know, oh, these students have no future and you're not going to care. And this is a throwaway job without knowing that he had that exact same background. So, you know, and I think that trope has been used a lot and it's quite corny now, right? The cool teacher, you know, the cool teacher, but within that inner city context and, you know, within all of this, like, truly ethnically diverse, reflective of New York at that time show, right? It's what a lot of folks want to see in representation both on and off screen. And we have this perfect example and a highly charismatic John Travolta, like that star element is also definitely there. But it also took its roots right within Cotter and then in a few years, Saturday Night Fever and Greece. But those are also very youth, you know, Greece, you know, was a teen film, right? A teen musical. So, yeah, what was it? What was your experience with Cotter? Were you a fan?
- [19:32]
C
Well, yeah, I was like, I was a fan. And I thought it was like this funny show, but it wasn't until. Right. And then I start doing work in education. Right. And focusing on youth culture and especially like in sort of urban education and working. And so it also reminds me a lot of to sir with Love or Right. Like but. But much less. And this might be gendered too. A much less of a savior complex and welcome Back Cotter than we get in something like Dangerous like these Dangerous Minds and Freedom Riders. Right. And those are all films. But it's that like I, I have been watching AP Bio and I think it, I mean it's fine, but I think it's trying to do what welcome Back like in a bat and not as good of a way. Right. Like it's trying to play on some of that history, but I don't think it does. And, and so yeah, so real like noticing or realize it's one of those shows where once, you know, I watched and it was funny and that's great. But then when I start to re. Watch it when I get older, I'm like, oh, this was more than just funny. Right. Like this was doing some really grout. Right. You talk a bit about Ma like different show like Norman Lear and you know, and Norman Lear comes up often and like his importance and what he was doing. But I feel like this is similar in that it was sort of pushing back whether it wanted. Thought it was going to or not. It pushed boundaries. Right.
- [21:04]
B
And it was, it was again the humor was there. The both kind of slaps traditional sitcom humor. But it, but yeah, again that I, that it like was paired nicely with Cheers or Taxi in terms of kind of like this again a very rare blue collar class. Right. Again, the Brits do it a lot better. The Canadians do it a lot better. American television and class is a very. Is not. Has not been a recurring theme unless it's the upper class, unless it's a lifestyles in the rich and famous or almost an explosive exploitative nature. So yeah, I do hope that makes it worthy for a revisit in that way. And I almost sometimes say it's a good teaching show because it does hold up a lot of these elements that we look at and that it was placed in a high school specifically.
- [22:01]
C
Now one of the things reading your book and I just recently read another Kathleen Collins book on tv it always makes me want to watch like I'm like okay, I'm going to go back and like it's. I added to that like to rewrite and these are mostly rewatch Right. I'm like, I'm adding that to go back and rewatch that and look at that for those memories. Yes. And I like, I, I appreciate your reference to thinking about class. Right. Because we often don't that middle club, you know, we. Roseanne and Roseanne had become really problematic recently, but that was one that did that well. And so it's nice to sort of see that. And I think we saw it much more in the 70s and maybe even in the 80s then.
- [22:49]
B
Yeah. And it's difficult with teens because you do want to have this idea that the class of the teen might change. But we know that's very, you know, in college. Right. So even having that space specificity of, you know, and it had to be a Cosby spin up spinoff, A Different World. So it was a college, you know, series. And only by the second season when you have Debbie Allen in charge. And that's also an argument I wanted to assert authorship matters when you can have these folks behind. You know, there's a lot about representation matters and often on screen. But I think having someone to get those nuances, if you watch like season one versus season two of A Different World, when you have that showrunner shift and talking about these issues that were very much a part of like the HBCU background but like black America as well. So even looking to some of those sitcoms that carried on like you said, in the 80s or early 90s, it also kind of dissipated. That's actually dissipated, I think because of quote unquote, different iterations of quality tv. So as much as I want to sometimes discuss Dawson's Creek and the influence and the references, Dawson's Creek and Buffy were these shows to come out of, you know, WB after, you know, you know, there were a lack of blacks, you know, there was basically this decision that, you know, none of these black centered series could really survive, you know, that it wasn't as marketable as, you know, upper middle class teens, basically. So I think those class divides and again that, you know, it was also perfect timing that the Brandy and I think another show from that era, not Girlfriends but something else came back because folks love that kind of stuff. And Fresh Prince has, you know, Fresh Prince has been around for a while and been able to stream. But something like the Brandy dynamic really follows that, like pop star on TV and that kind of crossover.
- [24:52]
C
Right. And you know, you start we're Talking about the 80s a bit and that move, you know, and thinking about class and that moves us into, I think a lot of the Gen X tv, right. And I am squarely, you know, in the middle of Gen X through and through. And so it's interesting too to sort of talk about what was going on with Gen X, some of the shows, how, and how those shows sort of bridged that gap or not, I mean, not even a gap, but bridged from what was happening with the baby boomer generation into the millennial generation. So can you talk a little bit about that or start by talking a bit about like that Gen X and what you sort of grounding us in that as well?
- [25:38]
B
Yeah, and I think Gen X has, you know, there's so much that Gen X has done and of course they get you and you know as well as you and that because it's a smaller generation, there is less of a discussion, there's fight, you know, over who's that, you know, as the. But that's what they were defined as, right? The baby buster. So something changed with Gen X. And I think if we follow the logic that every generation to some extent is going to rebel and is going to want something more or something different from the previous generation or if there's an idea that the baby boomer generation, whatever kind of revolutionary ideas or progressive ideas they had, and even a lot of the, the great figures of that time were actually the previous generation. Right. If you look at social justice icons, but if we follow that logic, then Gen X wanted something else. So there is, I think to me the rebellion against the suburbs, against the corporations. And of course I saw that in like a bite sized way as a millennial. So I talk about the film Reality Bites as this like very, you know, a kind of Hollywood film that does place it in very neat and tidy ways. And obviously it doesn't cover everything, but as an introduction, right? And when you could be watching Slack, you know, Richard Linklater being involved somehow you know, at the time in the actual communities that were going on. But about a generation, about kind of sticking to the ideals and growing up in suburbia. And this is, and again the, you know, thinking about, I always compare reality bites with. And again, because films sometimes have a, have a more popular, not like more conventional knowledge like the Big Chill, right? So the Big Chill folks love the soundtrack. Folks love this kind of, I call it like a late stage growing up film when you, you know, something horrible has happened, right? A loss of innocence. Your college friend, it's a Michigan alumni, has committed suicide. They meet up for the weekend, right? They're in this weird adult phase where they have, you know, Jeff Goldblum writes for people they have, you know, traded in drugs for, you know, granola, you know, Klein's character. So I think about that in contrast to what Gen X was going through at the time, where they saw their parents kind of change these values for socioeconomic security for these different elements and that Gen X while what? Right. While you're still a teenager, it's maybe a luxury to be that think that way as a teenager, but to rebel about those concepts against corporate America and to think about how you function in that world and to kind of just have that space right. Where marriage doesn't have to be the next option, even those kind of things. The acknowledgement of the breakdown of the traditional nuclear family as we also were able to see it on television or the behind the scenes, right. What's going on with the Brady Bunch. You know, Gen X I think has this great viewership element of growing up with these shows. So even there's books that are like Gen X television and a lot of it are those childhood sitcoms that you might have grown up on and how that differs from, you know, what your childhood actually look like. And so I think when you see these shows and when Gen X people, producers start working in that, well, what are we going to show? What's different and what can we do? So even, you know, placing, you know, kind of coming off from the 30something production line with Winnie Holzman working for that show and then being asked to do this show and wanting to do things like I want this to be set in Pittsburgh and I want Claire Danes because she is a teenager. Even if that means we have to change the, you know, production element because of child acting and you know, but keeping the theme of what is it like to be a teenager. Right. So that her parents knew each other as teenagers and one was popular and one was a nerd. I mean this has defined so many shows like I just finished Cool Summer set in the 90s. That so much of folks identities is rooted in what you remember from either your childhood, right. Whether it's like the psychological element or, or how you came into this world, right. I was a popular kid who, you know, whatever. I was the nerd who didn't get picked. And this is what, instead of assimilating and instead of choosing or instead of feeling outside because of that, I think Gen X embraced that. Right. So that very early element in my so called life where she's like these cheerleaders are freaks, you know, I don't understand this kind of mass following. And you know, sports and this assimilation, you know, and it's basically her having this conversation with herself where she's thinking independently, right. Where she realizes high school is this huge kind of performative construct, you know, and of course with the insight of a very smart showrunner. But those, but the fact that you could relate to that I think was very huge. And that you didn't feel like an outsider and that those shows, you know, we talk about freaks and geeks kind of carrying over that Gen X mentality too and having that very, let's get this out of the way of the cheerleaders. And it's not even the cheerleaders or the athleticism, just that that is kind of what symbolizes it. So even shifting from a Saved by the Bell, everybody gets to fit in or be the geek, right? So we talk about these shifts in the geek representation as well. But I think that these shows were able to be on their own purely about that it was really special about Gen X tv, however short lived and cult status that it reached. But I think that speaks to the cult status, right? And that's how future programs were with that in mind, right. Like the success of Holzman after My so Called Life with Wicked, the success of Judd Apatow and that stardom element of everyone intel in post television and then in premium cable to some extent. So it's really to me about that alternative perspective, right. The first time you're seeing, you know, alternative rock, alternative, you know, et cetera, and accepting that difference and the television adapts. So it has to acknowledge it to some extent. So I will say with, with your area of expertise, you know, I was not expecting to riot girl culture, you know, through television. So it's something I definitely missed out on. And in that gendered way, I didn't have, you know, a grunt, you know, a grunge or. I didn't. I didn't know a lot of girl musicians that were popular in that way. They were not within like a pop sphere. So because I was a little bit younger, I wasn't able to be exposed to that. And I think that changes a lot of folks identities if they do have that early exposure.
- [33:02]
C
Yeah. And I think that television has more of a role, right. Because of when I came of age, right. You know, and mtv and I'm the same age as like I loved the Real World reunion, the first Real World. So brilliant. But like I remember being in college and sitting there and watching like they were my age, right. And even watching them now. But that was some to me Too. That was brilliant TV at that time. But. But, yes. Right. So. But we didn't have, you know, MTV was coming in and cable was coming in, but you still sort of went downstairs, you know, or to watch Saturday Night Live or to watch Real World, you know, you didn't. You. You weren't. Well, I'll just watch it, you know, now I can be like. Like, my sister is like, you need to watch Cruel Summer. So it's on my list. Right. So, you know, but I'm like, okay, I'll watch it, you know, when I can binge it and have time to watch it. Right. And. And you. I didn't need. I couldn't. We couldn't do that. So there's some of that too, where if you didn't. If you weren't in the. I don't even want to say in the know, but if you weren't exposed to that in some way, whether it's by meeting, you know, friends or just, you know, being. I think where I grew up helped to expose me to, you know, music and certain things because it's just sort of where you were that, you know, it was hard. And television, I mean, I blame Ronald Reagan.
- [34:27]
B
Yes, of course.
- [34:28]
C
Right. And a lot of politics.
- [34:29]
B
Yeah.
- [34:30]
C
Yes. And the politics of the time and. And what was being sold and not sold. So that you talk about. I love My so Called Life. I love my Freaks and Geeks. Right. But they also. I always say they're too. They were too smart for TV because. And you sort of talk about that because, you know, I feel like. And especially with My so Called Life, I always feel like this should this. Like, this is way long. Like that. It lasted much longer than it did. Right. I'm like, there's so much in it that I'm like, that couldn't have just been one season that we hung out with all of them. Right. It had to be that box set downstairs I have is not the only. Right. But you know, so there's that in there too. And you talk about that cult status or this is the Time. The. What's nice about the like, I think Freaks and Geeks, My so Called Life, what was sort of going on, you know, in the early 90s, late 80s, early 90s, is at the point where we can readily access it. So I think that's really nice. Is right. There's so many references to those shows often in modern shows that I really love to see.
- [35:40]
B
Yeah. And it did. And you. Like, you're right. It is. It were. There were these shows Gone too soon. Right. And like kind of building off that model. And if you, if you, if you dropped it in now, of course they would be successful, but because they were there before, right. You know, they had to crawl and be canceled and all of these elements so, you know, you could have other things later. So it was, it was, it was sacrificial in that way. Right. If you think about what, what they were able to push and what they were able to show, and Freaks and Geeks had so much going against it and you know, for its timing, you know, I compare a lot of. Everybody has a show even now that is canceled, that they want to see come back, whether or not it deserves it, because everything is coming back, you know, in some. In some way or the other. And I think these shows have been untouched. There have been reunions, the Freaks and Geeks cast at ATX festival, et cetera. I don't think you can get probably Claire Danes and Jared Leto and all those folks in the room together. No. Right. And that's just to speak of the incredible talent in the. In, you know, Claire Danes was becoming a movie star. Jared Leto, I mean, and this is where it gets generational. There's very. A lot of women who will, you know, say he's, that's my Jordan Catalano. That's my crush. And I'm like, I don't think he's very talented. I don't know why he has an Oscar, might get another Oscar, but I understand is a candle that is held for Jordan Cataleno in that moment in time. But yeah, to speak of that.
- [37:17]
D
At Capella University, learning online doesn't mean learning alone. You'll get support from people who care about your success, like your enrollment specialist who gets to know you and the goals you'd like to achieve. You'll also get a designated academic coach who's with you throughout your entire program. Plus, career coaches are available to help you navigate your professional goals. A different future is closer than you think with Capella University. Learn more at capella. Edu. Good morning crust.
- [37:50]
B
It's a great day to be a bread brother. Mornings are not my jam or jelly. Oh, come on. Stop loafing around. I just woke up feeling hollow inside.
- [38:01]
D
Just grab one of the new morning uncrustable sandwiches like Bright eyed berry or.
- [38:05]
B
Up an apple filled with 12 grams.
- [38:07]
D
Of protein and tons of deliciousness crust.
- [38:10]
C
What are you eating?
- [38:12]
B
It's just granola. Not even yogurt.
- [38:15]
D
No crust, no fuss. Uncrust your mornings. If we knew more about our sleep, what Would we do differently? Would we go to bed at a consistent time or take steps to reduce interruptions to our sleep? With the all new sleep score, Apple Watch measures your bedtime consistency, interruptions and sleep duration. Then every morning it combines these factors into an easy to understand score from 1 to 100. So you'll know how to take the quality of your sleep from good to excellent. Introducing the new sleep score on Apple Watch, iPhone 11 or later required.
- [38:48]
C
I laugh because who is it? Somebody has an essay that basically talks about that same role of John Cusack, right? So like and I cannot think and I am kicking myself because I should know the essay, right? But that idea, like, that's like, yes, right, Like I have my John Cusack movie that I can go to and we can't skip over 90210, right, like, right. So in that chapter. But like, so there's all these that are short lived, but then there is 90210. And growing up in Minnesota, you know, I also love like, right, like, so there was the whole, that instant, you know, appreciation of some of the things that were happening in that. So that show, right, that lasted. So can you talk a little bit? And it's really fascinating sort of to see where some of those actors, what they're doing now and what they've gone to do. So I'd love you to talk a little bit about 90210.
- [39:49]
B
Yes. So I actually spoke, I don't think I can talk like specifics of the actual app production, but I spoke to a documentary crew and this would, this will be right up your alley. Post Reagan, the kind of Post Reagan television and how that was reflected in youth. So they were quite big fans of even I talk about it a little bit. But Party of five, because I see that more as a family show where you can take out all the adults and kind of make, you know, different variations of Gen X serve as a parental figure. Is that kind of like let's get the parents out and this is how we're gonna do it. But to me, 90210, obviously they had, you know, Spelling, Aaron Spelling at that time was gold, right? So he had Love Bow all those previous shows that were so successful. And I think it is. I wouldn't know, but it is a very difficult feeling to have a success every decade, right? To have Charlie's Angels Love Bow every decade and to see something shifting in television and to look at your teenage daughter Tori Spelling and to see MTV coming and you know, different things coming about because MTV was early 90s. Fox started in, you know, late 80s, so that there was a tide in television in that way through a new network, through cable, because television, commercial television, for profit commercial television that would thrive was a very successful endeavor. And so the point where you aren't sure what to do and if you aren't making a hit show, you go back to the drawing board and you look at other elements. And I do think there was even an element with Saved by the Bell, Saved by the Bell, looking at sitcoms. Fresh Prince, right? To me, I'm always like, you have to acknowledge that there was a show called Fresh Prince of bel Air before 90210. Because to me, 90210 speaks is. It's. It's marketable and it speaks to, okay, here's a Midwestern family that gets, you know, like, not Beverly Hillbillies, but you relate to the more likely America, right, is going to relate to some kind of, you know, like Victoria Johnson talks about heartland television, right? So we think about, you know, that mythical suburban Midwest family and demographics. So that's the Walshes to a T. Our, like family that we start with and that they're taken out and taken out to, you know, what folks started getting exposed to, right? So lifestyles of the rich and famous, all these elements, celebrity culture booming. And so you're able to both still kind of stick to that. What I consider this kind of like, value system that the Walshes have. But you're able to show a lot of sexy material and kind of material that you would previously not be able to show, like losing your virginity, right? You know, there was so much kind of behind the scenes elements of that episode of showing a girl losing her virginity on television. And that summer, the backlash of some, you know, well, what can we do? She has to break up with him. She can't be satisfied, right? She can't be happy that she lost her virginity to this bad boy. And, you know, it's moving too fast. So there's still that kind of PSA element that like public service announcement that I think teen viewers always see through, right? But because everyone was so good looking and because there was cool music and they kept all these things, right? If you do have those elements that still feel authentic to a teen audience and if you still have those dreamy, you know, like Dylan and your bad boys, then it's gonna sell. It's gonna sell. So it has this weird. And I think that's really what a lot of Gen X sometimes feels like, is that you have this element of the alternative and the different that was incorporated into the mainstream, that is done so now, but once it does, it kind of gets chewed up and becomes its own thing. Because you would have these kind of fluke things like the Flaming Lips. I always use my, my example, right? At the Peach Pit. The Flaming Lips were a weird underground band. And I always. I bought a Beverly Hills 9021 oak unopened tape soundtrack at a local record store. And of course the owner was like, this has never been opened, you know, but it actually has a surprisingly good soundtrack. And I remember when Flaming Lips were on there and I thought they were a cool band. And I'm like, they were and are a cool band. But you know, making Those, being on 90210 and being at the Peach Pit doesn't mean selling out. Not at all. Maybe they got a little bit of money, which, you know, is. Isn't bad. But making these kind of decisions and having those crossovers, those, those like corporate America independent, you know, and. But then having this Beverly Hills being somehow in between that, right? Both going against it but still adhering to it because you have to. To be on tv. And so, you know, those elements of like the virginity loss narrative, you know, different elements of violence, different elements of growing up that on. Of the very safe family show, like in contrast to Growing Pains, you know, in contrast to Saved by the Bell, it's one and done within that episodic nature, right? This is a drugs episode, don't do drugs. This is the alcohol. This is a sex episode that serialized nature. And this is where it's great to be a tv, a TV studies person because, you know, that soap opera element is what helped. That serialized nature is what helped build those shows and help them continue those storylines. And it's hilarious to me still that, you know, the reason that Donna, Tori Spelling's character was this like virginal character was that as. As not involved as Aaron Spelling was in the writing. He would, he would come in, you know, see the development and make sure that, you know, his like wish fulfillment for his daughter was that, you know, she remained this virginal character and that that was part, very much a part of her identity and that she went through other things. And the test anxiety thing is actually quite brilliant because I hadn't seen that. But that, that, you know, that is reflective dad on set who didn't want his daughter to, to be that and whatever with the Spelling family, whatever we, we, we think or know about the ins and outs, but that, that seems pretty undeniable right?
- [46:45]
C
Yes. And I remember reading. Right. Like that was like. Like such a huge. Like, what's Donna gonna do? Right. And that was such a huge thing. Right? Like that, you know, it remind again, it sort of goes back to still at a time where you, you have to watch the show when the show is going to be on right or Right. Or you're gonna have to wait for the rerun. So it reminds me of like a lot of that. Like, who shot Junior Dallas? Kind of, you know, like where everybody. I think it's Thursday night. Like, you all need to go home and watch it. Right? We need. So, you know, you want to know what's going to happen. And if you don't, if you're not there at the time, then you either have somebody tell you or you wait till it shows again in the summer.
- [47:28]
B
And they, and they also started. It's really like satirized now, but for various different reasons. Like the older folks playing Teens, which is just, you know, liability wise. And you know, Andrea, the character of Andrea kind of lying about her age. Ian Zuckerberg, you know, Ian Zucker, like, about his age. And in some ways it makes more sense. Like, this is a romanticized view. This is a soap opera, right? This is, you know, the soap opera genre within this teen context, but within a very glamorized Beverly Hill, the most famous, you know, zip code in America or however you want to say. So it did maintain these elements of the soap as well and of that appointment viewing that we talk about as this historical thing. And weirdly, again with my students, there's this element of, oh, we have to teach them about appointment viewing and teach them about waiting for things to come around. But because a lot of media like Cruel Summer or even Stranger Things documents that in a really interesting way of carrying around your boot box or some of them watch friends of making a request to. To play. Ross wants to play the song for Rachel over the radio and you know, she's gonna listen to it. They actually have this nostalgia about it because as much as we. There's like, oh, there's an addiction to social media and instant gratification. They wanna know what that feels like before because it's very different to them. And there are a lot, a lot of my students, you know, wanna take those breaks or wanna engage with like old, old quote, unquote, old media, want to see what this record player feels like, want to see the typewriter. And part of it is aesthetics and a little, you know, at surface level. But I think the Folks that are interested in it. Because teen culture is also material culture. Right. Every teen's bedroom is not going to look like a traditional bedroom. So they want to have these things around them. So in the digital world, what does that look like? So that's why I think a lot of it is returning to, you know, the 90s, I suppose, like pre. Pre Internet technology. And because 90210 was able to last for a decade. So there was that growing up element. The college years weren't as awkward because they weren't as reliant on, you know, that element. And you still wanted to see them evolve but still quite, you know, but still quite different than your freaks. And you know, I mean obviously before. And before my so called life 89 90. But it does have this role where I'm sure that it became so popular that it wasn't, you know, and it's gender too because there's more of a young girl audience. And that's because it is a soap. And that's when you have video game technology. So you even look at, you know, a movie like Boyhood and that's like the whole history of, of kind of, you know, if you look at him growing up with video games and that young straight boys didn't have, you know, TV in that way that changes a little with the OC and some other, you know, programming and you know, it being masculinized. But I think because it is understood in that way, you know, or having a character like Ricky on My so Called Life and thinking about, you know, this side character but that he was queer and homeless and you know, kind of essentially non binary, you know, even if that wasn't really a term used at the time. And now you have other shows like Cruel Summer. I get it, I'm gay, I'm black, I'm in Texas, you know, like almost have to be very self aware of. This is the 1990s. And this is what I have to tell you about this context. But then you couldn't say it out loud. You had. It was. It was quite. He had to remain this ambiguous character.
- [51:38]
C
And thinking of sort of sexuality and sexual identity and sort of moving from Gen X even into Millennials. There's this idea like especially for some reason we're getting better about it I think in popular culture, but we still are in American culture. But we don't like to think that kids have sex. Right. God forbid, any. Right. Or that they're even sexual beings in any way, shape or form. So. Right. And so you. So that Sort of starts to move. And I don't think it perfectly changes, but it. We move closer in the United. I should say in the United States. Right. And other countries, they actually understand that kids have sex, people have sex or not only children have people have sex. Right. And so can you talk a little bit about how you sort of. What are those, you know, not only having sex, but being sexual beings. Right. Whether it is like this hetero, heteronormative sexuality or having more ambiguous or being part of the LGBTQ+ community, but how we see that sort of changing as we move into millennial television and then into our, you know, television to our sort of Gen Z tv.
- [52:58]
B
Right. And there is, you know, I quite like Ron Becker's, you know, post closet TV and thinking about different ways. Although, like, you know, in hindsight, we definitely look at that through again, like a heteronormative gaze that like different ways of, like gay sexuality has been accepted in the mainstream based on the comfort level of. Of the straight audience or the straight creators or the straight executives, like your will and grace kind of kind of character who, you know, or, you know, even I think in Modern Family, the couple, Right. Who you don't see them as sexual beings, right. Maybe I think they were. They did it later. But the cam, you know, it's quite. They're quite, you know, so to me, that's still a problem. And I agree. And I think with sex selling, it becomes difficult. And I think this. This Britney Spears revival and like, re understanding of the pop star and what it means to be a pop star and to see a child grow up on the screens and have to answer these questions. Obviously she was a teen and we knew her age, but it becomes problematic to show, you know, and like you even mentioned the Reaganism of it, but the conservative nature of American television versus sex selling or the kind of puritanical ways that we avoid sexuality, I think, or avoid teaching. Teaching sex. You know, like you said in school, in an educational format. There's no, you know, Degrassi or Skins or public service program. You know, I don't know if that's Sesame Street's job. I know they've done a lot for children's television, but, you know, I don't know if they would be at that point. I don't know what kind of public service broadcasting or what kind of national sexual education we see because we see it more on the other end or we see, you know, abstinence. Only me growing up in the south and the ways that. The ways that's done. So another reason why I actually think it is it is smart to hire adult actors if you do want to show those kind of sexual awakenings and sexual elements and if you do want to show the awkwardness or if you do want to show the growing up, you know, you follow a show for a few years and you see them coming of age and it goes hand in hand. But yeah, I do think, and this is where Millennial TV becomes even more interesting to me because there used to be this element of the divide and the relationship between American TV and British TV is obviously so strong and the different ways we borrow from each other. But when I think it comes to teen tv, what I was reading a lot was that a lot of Brits were watching Dawson's Creek and 90210. And that's why, you know, I stick with American television and the American Teenager because I think there is something to be say about that. People want to see the American Teenager. And that has been like, that is what is thought of as a teenager. It's so closely related to that post World War II, but also that 80s, that 90s throughout time when you think about the American Teenager. But I think when you started to see, you know, these British shows that were able to show kids engaging in sex and once we have these patterns where we can watch Skins on Netflix and we can watch, you know, we have more access to these shows than we would have before and that you can directly see that this is what the audience wants to see, right? They're kind of tired of these previous models because they've already seen it be challenged in other countries in other ways. And so this like kind of cross generational transnational element is starting to, to take light, you know. So it's also that the OC was influential in other places and that again, I talk a little bit about like the Californian ness, right? From Gidget to the oc, two different new shows. A set in California, there's the suburbs and there's a California of it as well. But I think you have, yeah, you have to answer to that. So it's an uncomfortable change and it's a market change. And again, we've seen how a show like Skins did not succeed in the US and because it was too, too sex, too much emphasis on the sexualization, right. Without any of the content and the story and the buildup. So I think that is where you can't just kind of take that format, you know, because it's always funny. Skins is Skins in the UK context refers to kind of like that loose tobacco paper that you use to make your own, you know, whatever kind of smoking device you want to use. But in the US Version, that's, it's taken quite literally. But, you know, and it's, and it's a play, obviously. And so we get, we get in this moral panic, right, this, that, that also comes about. So, oh, no, you know, we can't show nice Brenda Walsh having sex and enjoying it. This has happens a lot in like mpaa, you know, like the, the rating system in America, even in film is like, rate is based a lot on like denying female sex, showing female pleasure. So obviously we start to see, we start to see that. And I mean, I think it's, it's changing. And I think what I like about a more contemporary show, like euphoria and what I like, you know, with my students response to it besides kind of, you know, because as much as I, you know, the OC was, was important to me as a teen, I do realize the kind of, the kind of ways my students have these standards, you know, that we felt were like, oh, but you can't have that. And then sometimes my students ask, why not? You know, why, why do we have to wait? Or, you know, it's almost like this and this like social justice, like, why do we have to wait for these things? Or why does progress have to be this slow? And there's something in euphoria about obviously the post coming out story, right? That not everyone, not every queer character, it's about coming out or it's about going through that. You show the struggles of that as part of their upbringing, but it's also not their entire identity. And of course, you know, HBO had a lot of freedom, but if the kids want to watch a show, you know, if they want to watch a show on hbo, they will, even if that wasn't their, you know, preferred streaming service. Because now it's also a streaming service, right. It's kind of moved from this cable identity. But yeah, I do look back at a lot of elements of millennial TV growing up that is so reflective of, you know, what happened in Gossip Girl in that shift when Chuck Bass was a rapist, right. And we, and there was this kind of it's forgotten and he's rehabilitated. I spoke with some, some women who are rewatching Gossip Girl or watching it for the first time, and they're, they're noting these problematic elements, right? It's kind of like you can do it with super bad. You can do it with a lot of things that don't age well. So I do like that there's a. There's a reckoning, but also an acknowledgement for what it could have done and what it could have established. And I think it's never in a vacuum. But these are what. This is what was out at the time. Right. These are what teens were watching, and the response is based on what comes next. So, again, if we keep that in mind, if we keep that kind of rebellious nature in mind of what does the next generation do but challenge, you know, those things, then it has to. You know, it has to be true. And that's why, you know, there's a kind of. You see a lot of this, like, conflict between Gen Z and Millennial. I don't know how much of that is just kind of artifice or, you know, a little bit tongue in cheek, But I do think there should. They should ask for more. And I. And it's really nice as a. As a. As a educator and to be able to teach these materials, to see my. This generation of new students asking for these things in. In their media. And as. As a lot of them want to be future, you know, writers, producers, all of those elements, so that it's still evolving and that we can still look back at these shows with different levels of criticism.
- [61:52]
C
Yes. And I appreciate how you talk about. Because some of them don't age right. You start. You know, I even have these conversations with my friends where we'll be like, let's show this to our kids. And sometimes you start to watch and you're like, sometimes it's good. And sometimes you're like, we. We'll have these. Did you remember this plot line? And I'm like, no, I did, you know, like. Or, you know, it's one of those where you have to pause and have a long conversation about what was going on during that, you know, what was happening and really thinking. And I sometimes wonder if these shows, like Stranger Things, like, I haven't watched Cruel Summer yet, but a lot of these shows where it's like, we're gonna go back to the 80s or go back to the 90s is this way of saying, if we could. This is what television should have looked like. Right. So we're gonna. We're going to rework it or we're going to redo it and make it the way we wanted it to be or think it should have been.
- [62:50]
B
Yes. It's just like, cover. It's this cover. And I don't like that Cruel Summer uses mostly. Some usually uses cover songs of those. But I think it's an interesting statement on the fact that it is trying to do things because I find myself thinking. And Freeform does have this element of almost, not quite public service, but a little bit of like knowing that they have a younger audience and knowing they put trigger warnings on there and that they have. There's a kind of responsibility at the same time that I. That I think was previously either too stressed in certain episodes. Right. Again, where it can all be solved or, you know, you know, or it was just kind of pushed to the side. To a side character. Because one of the early episodes of 90210, there's a character with AIDS that comes and speaks at the school. It's not a main character. It's never going to happen to a main character. I think Steve again had like a one night stand, you know, with her. And of course that the casualness of kind of the straight white male characters like, and how they can have sex with whoever and whatever. And then, you know, the kind of complexities of that is still very similar, very startling. But, you know, I've had students write essays about, you know, different ways the character in Clueless, you know, the only queer character in Clueless was, you know, not really given his fair share. Right. Was used as kind of, you know, as much as I admire different elements about Clueless, like. That's correct. Yeah, yeah. Christian was, you know, used in that way. And to me that's nice because I think television studies, media studies approaches allows for that. I think there is an element of film studies that preserves the canon and preserves these works as art. Right. We have this like. And that we can't critique it because it's art and because it did its thing and, and I think as television, obviously this rooted in, like us, you know, having feminist, you know, feminist, you know, work and you know, critical race work and being kind of doing, engaging in this. There's less of that need to preserve some kind of television canon, I think. I hope, you know, even though I think there's lots of girl boss gatekeeping involved in that as well. But yeah, I do want, I do want those. I do want those kind of critical reflections. And I'm. I'm sometimes surprised by those generational differences. So it does keep you. Right. And that's, that's what teaching to me should feel like when we are engaged with students like that.
- [65:36]
C
Right. You know, and one thing when you talk about sort of, I mean, you talk about it throughout, but one of the things you talk about in Gen Z when you talk about East Los High and some of the things are the ways in which there's this. This different element of p. The psa, Right. The different element of someone coming in, you know, as the showrunners come in. And. And that. That relationship between. It's not just. Even though people want to argue that we should have television, that's just entertainment. It never is. Right. There's. So I. Can you talk a little bit about that role of like even now, right. Even in the Gen Z things, how there is that push to educate in these hidden, sometimes hidden ways.
- [66:22]
B
Right, right. Yeah. And I mean, the history of East Los High, that the first season did not have any kind of backing from any kind of American traditional studio or anything like that. And that it came out of this public service, you know, and this model that they def. That I think they did a brilliant job of kind of taking from the origins of this nonprofit and the different ways that it is educational. And this is where we talk about different elements of media literacy. So a lot of those shows, they've traveled to different countries on this educational level where they would show it to children in health classes or something like that. And it's not meant to be purely moral panic, fear based, I think. I think there was so much fear based educational media that was quite stressful. Obviously that would be shown in health classes here. I know it varies here, you know, region, city. But I think it's trying to do the work that wasn't done before, kind of what you, you know, almost like revisionists, like, what did we not see last time? What can we do to change? But even, you know, the East Los High, you know, talking to Kathleen Bedoya, she did so much outside work that is, again, not sexy and very academic. Right. Where you look at, you know, these statistics and you hire these, you know, folks in psychology or in, you know, development, right. As consultants. And this is like something like girlhood studies, I think, is a really great field. Like an emerging. Well, it's not even emerging, but the ways that it's becoming more addressed. Right. That that development is so crucial and showing it in these complex ways where it's not just she gets pregnant, she has an abortion, she's going to hell, she gets pregnant, she keeps the child, she'll never make. You know, there's these very hard and fast rules I think, that we would see in this teen or any kind of educational element. And I think there's an openness to this new media that I think viewers obviously are able to do on their own. And that's where, you know, if this growing media literacy or if this openness about that kind of thing is finally being shown. But I think, I think islo's high, you know, and it does show the freedom of something like Hulu and how they were able to have certain things on Hulu once they did work with Hulu and how so many shows since then, you know, like the Fosters and the Foster spinoff have done this work. So actually, there's lots of interesting production models and interesting ways of addressing this and feeling, you know, socially conscious based on, you know, starting with this studio now or starting with the development and who's a part of it, and that it doesn't have to feel kooky. Like, not kooky, but, like boring or preachy, you know, And I do ask students, I did a screening, I'm like, did you know that this was funded by a. Not, like, could you tell that this was the message they were pushing or. And I'm like, well, and there's really not that strong of a message, besides encouraging you to have an open mind and open perspective about these different nuances and that Boyle Heights, you know, living in la, that, you know, with East Los High, Boyle Heights stands out as this, you know, neighborhood where there was an unproportionate, you know, a highly unproportionate amount of teenage pregnancies and that, you know, due to socioeconomic reasons, were not, you know, handled in this way. Right. And that, you know, they, they, they move to think about the geography. Right. So I'm really loving, like, geo. The, the geographical specificity of shows, even something like Mayor of Easttown and kind of thinking about.
- [70:43]
C
Oh, yes, I, I, it was, I lived in Philadelphia for a long time, so. And for many reasons. And I love the mystery, like Detect, like, yes, all the nods also to Prime Suspect. Like, the whole thing made me so happy.
- [70:59]
B
And there is a little bit of a youth element in that too. You know, there's this strange push, you know, of these bands, you know, called Pussy Mannequin. And there is, there are jokes on Twitter about that that's a fake band name, but it's actually a real band name. And like, different ways that those youth navigate within this working class neighborhood in this, in South Philly. Right. So even different ways. Like, East Los High was thinking about it, well, what if it would look very different if we did a show about sexuality in Mississippi and rural Mississippi and Boyle Heights in, you know, parts of, you know, in, you know, Williamsburg. Right. We're seeing different shows set in kind of like religious. Religious kind of environments and like communities now and looking how that impacts, like, the. The youth element of it growing up that way. Even in Orange Is the New Black, there's like a Rum Springa flashback that I thought was super intriguing because you don't understand to have that. That background, you know, in Mormonism and that, like, that kind of shift and those changes in life. But it's a different world, you know, it's a different world in different parts of America, and we're a huge country and it's not just LA and it's not just Gossip Girl New York, you know, And I know those are, you know, different traditions and different values, but I also think the regional specificity. And again, it. Boyle Heights is Los Angeles. So even revealing that is. Was very nice and starting to see those shifts.
- [72:35]
C
So we've been talking for a while and I could probably keep talking for forever on tv, but, you know, like, I'll ask you maybe two last questions. Like, first, like, where do you. I mean, do you. Do you see. Or where do you see TV or teen television going to net? Like. Right. What's the net? You know, or do you have an idea or. Or whether. Where you see it or where you'd like to see it? You know, where's that next move? You. You sort of end with talking about Euphoria as well. And so what do you see? And we talked about it a little.
- [73:10]
B
But do you have a. Yeah, I think the, The. The quality discourse is there. And it was, it was, you know, when Euphoria was first released. It actually really shows to the. The ways that the show can be interpreted and the different ways that HBO sells quality but has good campaigns, but the different ways that the show has been kind of exciting, accepted. And Zendaya being the youngest Emmy Award winner in, in her. In her role. Right. And seeing that, you know, two years later, how the show is kind of like already starting to have a different reputation than the initial. This is not what children are like. This is not. There was, you know, this reaction to euphoria that I realized when I'm, you know, I had, you know, that summer before my last semester in grad school and the way teens respond to it and even, like, the pace or, you know, that kind of social media element where they're like, this is not again. And it feels again, what we see at the beginning of these responses to the moral panics. This is not something that we asked for or, you know, when we were children and we were born like this. Right. We are trying to grapple with it ourselves. You know, if you go from like a Bill Clinton, let's have a computer in every room, you know, and then you go from like a. Let's have a phone in every hand, you know, and how these different elements of using kind of technology as a way for them to talk about it, because there's so much defined by that. But I. But I think there's a lot of resentment as being defined by that, because it's like millennials, you know, when you get. When you see the statistics, it's like millennials times 100, when you would compare, you know, what millennials were exposed to and how they had. So. My hope for the genre is that there will be the nuance that we hope and the kind of thoughtfulness and having imperfect shows and. Right. Because we don't look at. Because we know that that will happen, and that is a part of the, you know, part of the cycle and that all of these shows are also imperfect. So taking away that kind of, this is good, this is bad, this is quality. I want to watch it for these things. And I guess again, like what you were saying, with entertainment, it's sometimes hard to talk to folks, and they're like, am I going to. Like, am I going to be able to binge it for the whole time? And I guess. I guess I'm no longer the best. I guess I have to know that person and their style and their taste, you know, to a certain extent. And I'm saying, well, what are you, you know, what. What are you expecting? What do you want out of it? And people are very picky, and people want what they want. And, you know, everything has gotten so specific, and there is a lot out there. But there's also been a recent drought in production, too, in a way that, like, America was starting to watch more network TV live at the time, and different elements. And we always try to teach that nothing is brand new, obviously. So we try to say, well, this is a pattern of this. I've sometimes taught Wolf TV is a new tv, which I love because of that adaptation of it and that cyclical. It's cyclical. It adapts and things. And, you know, these elements will come back and be, you know, and you would never have thought that these unflattering, huge clothes, you know, from the 90s are now, you know, looking this way. And so even, you know, those kind of trends are quite surprising sometimes. But I think it's ever evolving. And I hope, you know that these elements and that these themes that I've placed aside as significant are, you know, I hope those stay the same, obviously. And that. Yeah. And what do you think?
- [77:27]
C
Well, you know, it's interesting because I do. I like how you said, you know, that idea of TV is the new tv, right. Because it often is. Like, there. We have great TV now, but we had great. We. We have often had great tv. Right. And I can always remember, I. I mean, I personally might be getting a little sick of everything and needing to return. I don't need a new sex right now. We got the new sex in the seat, right? I'm like, I don't care. Like, there's a point where I don't. I don't need to see you 20 years later. I just want you to be who you were like 20 years ago and just stay at. And as. And we didn't. I will open this bag, but I. We don't need to go down it. Veronica Mars to me, one of my, like the third season, but like one of the greatest shows of all time, right. Like, it is like, that's my jam kind of thing. But I didn't need to, like, I understand why the reboot of it was not, like, didn't work. Right. Because it just. You can bring them all back, but we don't need to, like, I don't care, you know, like. Yes. And so there's so much of that that I'm seeing now. Right. That reach where I'd rather see somebody redo it with a new cast. Right. Then, you know, I don't care about the Friends reboot. I don't, you know, like, I, I shouldn't. Don't let anybody hear me say, you know, I was more Seinfeld than Friends. Right. It was like Friends or Seinfeld, but. But right. Like, teenagers could never. You young adults could never afford places in New York City not do it, you know, so they really can't now. So I guess there's that too. So I'm hoping. I've appreciated with like Mary style, like with euphoria with also Big sky, this move to bringing in non binary actors in thinking about, like, in these ways that it doesn't need to revolve around. Well, this. That what you talked about before, that, like coming out. Right. Like, this is just a character. This is just an actor. This is who is participating and he was existing in these. So I appreciate some of. I'm hoping for more of that. Right. I'm always Hoping for more strong female, like they, you know, like, I love. I've really enjoyed Big sky as well because of like, and mayor of East 10 because of those, like, sort of strong female characters and those roles. So. And it's interesting to see the move of what's on the big screen coming to the small screen.
- [80:12]
B
Yeah.
- [80:13]
C
So some of that's interesting. You know, I don't know what's gonna happen, but those are interesting things.
- [80:18]
B
And hopefully there won't be a second season because Kate Winslet is too busy. Right. Like, you know, sometimes these great shows get to end because the talent again is too big and they don't have the time and they only, you know, because I think American tv, if it sells it has a problem with continuing. It doesn't end, you know, or it's too long. You know, something again, we learned from the Brits, like, you loved Fleabag. End it well, you know, give it some time. So I. And, And I think we see adult genres. Adult genres. I only say it to distinguish from teen. We see the influence, you know, that, you know, and the crossover. So I hope that's also an element of it because it matter. It matters a lot to students. And there were again, there were certain times where I felt very privileged to be exposed to the media. I was and that I was able to read into it the way I was. But a lot of my students talk about the transition from this was when I was a child and I thought, this is what I should look like. And this is when I realized this is not what I should look like. Whether it's TikTok or Disney or Nickelodeon or Teen, you know, the magazine culture as we know it has completely shifted. And it's, you know, in Instagram models and influencers. So even their relationship with that and having to have this kind of knowing when to stop or knowing what is real and what isn't real was so similar to kind of what this reckoning that, you know, kind of popular press writers like Anne Helen Peterson are doing with like re examination of Millennial magazine culture. Even a show like physical, you know, kind of like body image and different ways that different folks lives were, you know, dominated by this. Right. So that way, you know, it's not media effects. Right. That's not what we do. And we're not just saying this is bad and we're not, you know, channeling it. Yeah. So different, different ways that students kind of engage with that media literacy and that for them, that coming of age and that, you know, loss of innocence and that knowledge and that approach to adulthood does come through some kind of teen genre. No matter what, it hasn't gone away.
- [82:35]
C
So my final question often and usually is like, if you have anything else you're worried, like, is there one, anything you're working on now? I know this sort of just came out, so it might just be like you're just. But if there's anything, if there's anything like the next thing or anything else you want to sort of push or promote or.
- [82:53]
B
Yeah, I, I'm also just wait. I'm very excited for the Gossip Girl reboot because there is this element of like, there's still these rich kids, but there's going to be a kind of new reckoning and new lens. And I'm looking forward to writing about that in one way or the other. I'm writing a book proposal for my actual dissertation on showrunners, so I do give a little bit of that, like production studies, media industries, cultural studies, look at production cultures, production elements to give it that kind of whole look. So I think with the showrunners work is nice to revisit that, to think about those elements of authorship and identity. And I hope, you know, it'll be a little bit meatier, obviously, because it was the. The dis and it's been worked on for a while and so that's exciting. I'm. I'm working on some projects on the re. Evaluating the, the different ways we've talked about the feminine Masquerade and Angela McRobbie's post Feminist Masquerade within this digital context that I think has really changed and impacted folks and sort of discussing those ways that, you know, youth are engaging with these platforms. And so it's a continuation of my teen and youth media interest. And I think it's a little bit. Feels more in touch with seeing what they're doing because there's, there's so much that they do with television in terms of engaging, but having so much great feedback from students about these pivotal moments in their lives and wishing that they had that education or that media early on is really nice to see that they just wish they had it a little bit earlier or in a little bit of a different context. So pushing towards that youth media and that analysis, I think.
- [85:04]
C
Awesome. Well, it's been fabulous talking with you.
- [85:07]
B
Thank you so much.
- [85:09]
C
Again, this is Stefania Margitu, who is the author of Teen tv. Thanks for talking with me for new books in Popular Culture.
- [85:18]
B
Thank you so much.